England vs San Marino

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

Luxembourg are not a microstate (their population is 21x greater than San Marino's), they have a large majority of professional players, and they're ranked in the top 100.

I'm not sure how I can make my views on this any clearer. At least you didn't reference Wales like Gunnshow...

Edit: from a quick glance, it actually looks like all their players are professional

Luxembourg are below Haiti, Vietnam, Oman, Krygrz Republic, Benin, Cabo Verde in the rankings. They don't even have a professional league. 

There's no way Ireland should be anywhere near losing to them, but here we are 🤷‍♂️

Edited March 28, 2021 by Ken Hairy

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Can't help thinking that you're starting to look a bit silly.

I think maybe you came late to the party 😇👍😉

[kirku 1,332]

46 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Luxembourg are below Haiti, Vietnam, Oman, Krygrz Republic, Benin, Cabo Verde in the rankings. They don't even have a professional league. 

There's no way Ireland should be anywhere near losing to them, but here we are 🤷‍♂️

And what exactly does this have to do with my point that microstates who field teams full of bakers, postmen and estate agents probably shouldn't be in the regular qualification pool?

Edited March 28, 2021 by kirku

[kirku 1,332]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Can't help thinking that you're starting to look a bit silly.

 

41 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

I think maybe you came late to the party 😇👍😉

Hate to break it to both of you, but every single other federation (aside from South America) has pre-qualification. 

Guess what they base it on? FIFA Rankings

Awkward

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by kirku

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

19 minutes ago, kirku said:

Awkward

Not at all. You think one thing , I (and a few others,, including uefa,it seems) think differently. Why is that awkward?

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

55 minutes ago, kirku said:

 

Hate to break it to both of you, but every single other federation (aside from South America) has pre-qualification. 

Guess what they base it on? FIFA Rankings

Awkward

 

Difference is, they've all got a far larger proportion of micro-states/extremely small countries. Pretty sure their club fixture lists aren't as jammed either.

If you're not accepting Iceland as a microstate with its population of c. 340,000 then realistically it'll be between Andorra, Faroe Islands, Gibraltar, Liechtenstein, and San Marino. All that kerfuffle for five states. Illogical beyond belief.

This list of European countries by population should clear it right up. Below Iceland, you literally have the five states I mentioned as those who compete in European qualifiers. The rest (Jersey, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Monaco, Aland and the Vatican) do not - most of them play in the Island Games.

List of European countries by population - Wikipedia

Edited March 28, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[kirku 1,332]

2 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Not at all. You think one thing , I (and a few others,, including uefa,it seems) think differently. Why is that awkward?

Because you've resorted to infantile comments towards a perfectly reasonable position.

[kirku 1,332]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Difference is, they've all got a far larger proportion of micro-states/extremely small countries. Pretty sure their club fixture lists aren't as jammed either.

If you're not accepting Iceland as a microstate with its population of c. 340,000 then realistically it'll be between Andorra, Faroe Islands, Gibraltar, Liechtenstein, and San Marino. All that kerfuffle for five states. Illogical beyond belief.

This list of European countries by population should clear it right up. Below Iceland, you literally have the five states I mentioned as those who compete in European qualifiers. The rest (Jersey, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Monaco, Aland and the Vatican) do not - most of them play in the Island Games.

List of European countries by population - Wikipedia

You think the teams in San Marino have a more congested fixture list than some of those who have to pre-qualify in Asia, for example? I very much doubt that stands up to scrutiny.

 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

28 minutes ago, kirku said:

Because you've resorted to infantile comments towards a perfectly reasonable position.

You think it's reasonable.....doesnt mean anyone else has to agree. That's not infantile, what is infantle is expecting those who don't hold the same opinion,to change theirs.

Are you an only child?.............now that IS an example of an infantile comment

[kirku 1,332]

21 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

You think it's reasonable.....doesnt mean anyone else has to agree. That's not infantile, what is infantle is expecting those who don't hold the same opinion,to change theirs.

Are you an only child?.............now that IS an example of an infantile comment

"maybe some fella called Kirku from the Pinkun should decide who should and shouldnt . It certainly sounds like he's got it all figured out." Infantile.

Most intelligent people are happy to alter their views as the facts change, or they learn more about a topic.

For example, I didn't realise that most other federations had pre-qualifying or that Luxembourg had a population of 650k.

I'd be interested in some factual reasons as to why a bunch of postmen should be in the qualifiers but there's been nothing substantive put forward..

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

5 hours ago, kirku said:

And what exactly does this have to do with my point that microstates who field teams full of bakers, postmen and estate agents probably shouldn't be in the regular qualification pool?

Are you serious? Luxembourg are a tiny nation, not microstate granted but tiny, about twice the population of Norwich. Until very recently they were a team of bakers etc etc but allowing them historically to compete with bigger nations has allowed them to be in a position where they can now beat the likes of Ireland (albeit I still would be amazed if that became the norm for them)

San Marino etc have the same rights as Luxembourg to play international football, but as been said already the reason they don't pre qualify in Europe as in Asia is there isn't enough small nations to make it a worthwhile exercise, however if they did you can bet your bottom dollar Luxembourg would be part of that group. 

[kirku 1,332]

5 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Are you serious? Luxembourg are a tiny nation, not microstate granted but tiny, about twice the population of Norwich. Until very recently they were a team of bakers etc etc but allowing them historically to compete with bigger nations has allowed them to be in a position where they can now beat the likes of Ireland (albeit I still would be amazed if that became the norm for them)

San Marino etc have the same rights as Luxembourg to play international football, but as been said already the reason they don't pre qualify in Europe as in Asia is there isn't enough small nations to make it a worthwhile exercise, however if they did you can bet your bottom dollar Luxembourg would be part of that group. 

Why do you make this assertion?

An alternative view would be that the Nations League, in which similar ranked countries play against each other, is far more conducive to development. The impact of momentum and the confidence it brings is well established. Indeed, Luxembourg have a 50% win-rate in the Nations League as opposed to a 5% win-rate in qualifiers.

Perhaps a pre-qualification group would actually improve development? There's certainly more evidence for it than the current model. Luxembourg rocketed up the FIFA rankings when the Nations League was founded. 

As for the point about Asia having more small nations than Europe - that's simply untrue. Europe has 13 nations with a population of less than a million, Asia has 4 (with the smallest being Brunei with 421k).

 

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

The nations league has only happened once, even if it was to have that kind of impact it would take years to bare fruit, not one tournament. 

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

Also them climbing up the rankings rapidly because they beat another couple of minnows shows what a nonsense the Fifa rankings are. 

[kirku 1,332]

21 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

The nations league has only happened once, even if it was to have that kind of impact it would take years to bare fruit, not one tournament. 

I'm not sure this is a convincing argument.

There is no evidence that getting routinely smashed in qualifiers does anything to improve quality and results in the long or short term.

There is, however, circumstantial evidence that more regularly competing against similar quality opponents can bring short term gains in results. 

So, we have Luxembourg's result against Ireland being held up as an argument against pre-qualification but this ignores the clear uptick in results under a similar structure in the Nations League. 

Lastly, if FIFA rankings are "nonsense" because it doesn't fit your agenda, perhaps it speaks more about your argument than a well-established metric used for decades?

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

16 minutes ago, kirku said:

 

Lastly, if FIFA rankings are "nonsense" because it doesn't fit your agenda, perhaps it speaks more about your argument than a well-established metric used for decades?

Fifa rankings are nonsense because they're nonsense nothing to do with any argument. It's been long since acknowledged by anyone with any gravitas in the game that they're absolute rubbish. 

 

[kirku 1,332]

8 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Fifa rankings are nonsense because they're nonsense nothing to do with any argument. It's been long since acknowledged by anyone with any gravitas in the game that they're absolute rubbish. 

 

If you say so.

Have any of those people with "gravitas" proposed a better system? 

I note you've not engaged with the substantive parts of my posts.

So far we've had:

Allowing them to compete with bigger nations resulted in them beating Ireland

No evidence for this, evidence for the opposite.

Also misses the point that pre-qualification doesn't rule out playing larger nations.

Asia has more smaller nations than Europe, which is why their pre-qualification works.

Factually incorrect.

FIFA rankings are nonsense

Subjective.

[Newtopia 517]

This is such a ridiculous discussion.  How could fifa defend limiting entry into the World Cup, on the basis of fixture congestion in the second tier of a domestic league.   
Fixture congestion is for the domestic leagues to manage.  The rules of the EFL will have been agreed amongst the EFL clubs, which Norwich will have ratified.  This season is an odd ball and our fixture next Friday is unfortunate, but within the rules.

telling San Marino they are not allowed to take part is not the answer.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Newtopia

[kirku 1,332]

6 minutes ago, Newtopia said:

This is such a ridiculous discussion.  How could fifa defend limiting entry into the World Cup, on the basis of fixture congestion in the second tier of a domestic league.   
Fixture congestion is for the domestic leagues to manage.  The rules of the EFL will have been agreed amongst the EFL clubs, which Norwich will have ratified.  This season is an odd ball and our fixture next Friday is unfortunate, but within the rules.

telling San Marino they are not allowed to take part is not the answer.

I'm not sure if you've followed the whole thread but three points.

1) It's UEFA, not FIFA, who decide

2) Asia, North America, and Oceania all have pre-qualification

3) None of the discussion has revolved around fixture congestion for Norwich or any specific domestic league

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

4 minutes ago, kirku said:

If you say so.

Have any of those people with "gravitas" proposed a better system? 

I note you've not engaged with the substantive parts of my posts.

So far we've had:

Allowing them to compete with bigger nations resulted in them beating Ireland

No evidence for this, evidence for the opposite.

Also misses the point that pre-qualification doesn't rule out playing larger nations.

Asia has more smaller nations than Europe, which is why their pre-qualification works.

Factually incorrect.

FIFA rankings are nonsense

Subjective.

I didn't say playing against bigger nations allowed them to progress to be able to beat Ireland, I countered it may have done. 

Asia does have more smaller nations than Europe, and although actually they don't have a pre qualifying competition, in fact they have a first round (12 teams), played over 2 legs, not sure that format would have Luxembourg rising to 98th in the world and if Europe chose the weakest 12 teams Luxembourg would be one. 

End of the day, in a bigger nation arrogance you seem to think these smaller nations shouldn't have the same rights as the rest of the European federation, I'd disagree. We might think playing San Marino is pointless (it's not, it's worth 6 😉), but I bet San Marino don't, and if they did they wouldn't bother. 

However either way, I'm not sure I care that much anyway 😂

[Greavsy 2,413]

We, as Norwich fans,  and not one of the bigger team in the overall football pyramid get knarked (well I do) when the bigger teams (Man U,  Liverpool, Man Citeh, etc etc) dictate the league structures, and are party to adjust the european leagues to make them more lucrative for them. 

Surely this is the same thing, just with lower nations being the smaller clubs ? they are all entitled to participate, even if they get beat regularly.  

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

8 minutes ago, kirku said:

 

2) Asia, North America, and Oceania all have pre-qualification

Oceania is a poor example to choose, they have no guaranteed world cup spots, Australia qualify via Asia, and the winners of the Oceania competition only go on to a play off round. Its non comparable to UEFA 

[kirku 1,332]

30 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

I didn't say playing against bigger nations allowed them to progress to be able to beat Ireland, I countered it may have done. 

Asia does have more smaller nations than Europe, and although actually they don't have a pre qualifying competition, in fact they have a first round (12 teams), played over 2 legs, not sure that format would have Luxembourg rising to 98th in the world and if Europe chose the weakest 12 teams Luxembourg would be one. 

End of the day, in a bigger nation arrogance you seem to think these smaller nations shouldn't have the same rights as the rest of the European federation, I'd disagree. We might think playing San Marino is pointless (it's not, it's worth 6 😉), but I bet San Marino don't, and if they did they wouldn't bother. 

However either way, I'm not sure I care that much anyway 😂

This is what you wrote "allowing them historically to compete with bigger nations has allowed them to be in a position where they can now beat the likes of Ireland"

Asia - explain further. They categorically do not have more smaller nations by population, which was the context.

My point has always been that micro states, by extension largely non-professional squads, should probably pre-qualify. I honestly couldn't care less about England's past or current performances. I've not watched a non-tournament game in years (which, as an aside, is another point against these games, if viewed purely from an entertainment standpoint).

To be honest, neither do I but I'm bored as hell and arguing over this crap is infinitely preferable to watching England v Albania 😂

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 hours ago, kirku said:

Asia has more smaller nations than Europe, which is why their pre-qualification works.

Factually incorrect

Right, quick look at FIFA rankings. From 150 downwards, UEFA has 6, (San Marino 210th, Gibraltar 195th, Liechtenstein 181st, Moldova 177th - and they're not remotely a microstate, Malta 176th, who just drew 2-2 with Slovakia yesterday and Andorra in 151st).

CONCACAF has loads. Dominican Republic in 159th, then Grenada, Barbados, Guyana, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Bermuda, Belize, St. Lucia, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Montserrat, Dominica, Cayman Islands, Bahamas, Aruba, Turks and Caicos Islands, US Virgin Islands, British Virgin Islands and Anguilla.

AFC (Asia) - from 150 downwards they've got Afghanistan in 150th, then going down it's Malaysia, Maldives, Singapore, Nepal, Indonesia, Cambodia, Macau, Bangladesh, Laos, Bhutan, Mongolia, Brunei, Timor-Leste, Guam, Pakistan, then Sri Lanka. A fair few large countries in there, but with absolutely no tradition of football.

With Oceania there are only two in the top 150. The rest - aren't.

[kirku 1,332]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Right, quick look at FIFA rankings. 

Thanks for that.

The context was population size rather than FIFA rankings (which in the case of geographical segmentation, only makes logical sense on a proportional basis).

Luxembourg were brandished as a counterpoint, because they beat Ireland, but Moldova (as you rightly identify as a non-microstate) have not been referenced, despite their 8--0 loss to Denmark today.

Edited March 28, 2021 by kirku

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

10 hours ago, kirku said:

Thanks for that.

The context was population size rather than FIFA rankings (which in the case of geographical segmentation, only makes logical sense on a proportional basis).

Luxembourg were brandished as a counterpoint, because they beat Ireland, but Moldova (as you rightly identify as a non-microstate) have not been referenced, despite their 8--0 loss to Denmark today.

To be fair, we've both mentioned both criteria - population size AND FIFA rankings so it probably wasn't surprising that things got scrambled a little in the discussions. The problem within UEFA on applying any such notion is that you've got quite a few larger countries that are weaker than one microstate in particular (namely the Faroe Islands). 

When you said earlier on that Iceland, one of the smallest members in terms of population, is not a microstate in your eyes due to population then it really started lowering the numbers as then a country has to be ****e at footy in the FIFA rankings and also have a smaller population than Iceland. At that point, you're hardly going to have any states in a pre-qualifying round.

(Incidentally, Malta's population is just over half-a-million, so that's around 30% more than Iceland).

As the Wiki population link I put up showed, there were a fair few, but most weren't members of UEFA (the likes of the Isle of Man, Monaco, Vatican City, Jersey, Aland Islands, etc.). Furthermore, when you look at the regions that do have pre-qualifying, the FIFA rankings I put up showed they all have a lot more dross to filter through first. (AFC prequalifying pretty much resembles a list of semi-failed states so regardless of population, there's just not much football talent or infrastructure there at all!)

Edited March 29, 2021 by TheGunnShow
Just checked Malta's population out of interest

[kirku 1,332]

53 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Furthermore, when you look at the regions that do have pre-qualifying, the FIFA rankings I put up showed they all have a lot more dross to filter through first. (AFC prequalifying pretty much resembles a list of semi-failed states so regardless of population, there's just not much football talent or infrastructure there at all!)

The flipside of having fewer states to filter would mean a very limited impact in terms of "gunking up" their fixture lists?

Pre-qualification could potentially happen during the summer at the same time as a major tournament.

I'm starting to come round to the idea that it shouldn't just be microstates who pre-qualify, was it remotely beneficial for anyone for Moldova to lose 8-0 to Denmark? Pre-qualification could compound the positive effects of the Nations League..

Edited March 29, 2021 by kirku

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

6 minutes ago, kirku said:

The flipside of having fewer states to filter would mean a very limited impact in terms of "gunking up" their fixture lists?

Pre-qualification could potentially happen during the summer at the same time as a major tournament.

I'm starting to come round to the idea that it shouldn't just be microstates who pre-qualify, was it remotely beneficial for anyone for Moldova to lose 8-0 to Denmark? Pre-qualification could compound the positive effects of the Nations League..

So, micro states plus.....Moldova.....any other Nations you wish to exclude from a previously open competition?  Lets have a full list of who YOU deem not worthy of treading the same turf as Englands all conquering heroes, then we can forward it to uefa and they will give it due consideration......as this discussion is getting nowhere. In order for what you say to become reality then there must be a formula to indicate who is in and who is out, what exactly is that formula, it's metrics and likely outcomes.....we'll need a cohesive argument, and whats more a workable solution to the perceived problem, otherwise it'll be dismissed as elitist separatism.....which would of course, be embarrassing, for all concerned.

[kirku 1,332]

17 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

So, micro states plus.....Moldova.....any other Nations you wish to exclude from a previously open competition?  Lets have a full list of who YOU deem not worthy of treading the same turf as Englands all conquering heroes, then we can forward it to uefa and they will give it due consideration......as this discussion is getting nowhere. In order for what you say to become reality then there must be a formula to indicate who is in and who is out, what exactly is that formula, it's metrics and likely outcomes.....we'll need a cohesive argument, and whats more a workable solution to the perceived problem, otherwise it'll be dismissed as elitist separatism.....which would of course, be embarrassing, for all concerned.

I think this post makes it the perfect hattrick of infantilism..

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

13 minutes ago, kirku said:

I think this post makes it the perfect hattrick of infantilism..

Or can I just see a picture of you lying on the floor throwing a tantrum because some fella doesnt like others disagreeing with him.? ......now thats infantile.

Can I see a massive groundswell of support for your 'solution'....no.....quite the opposite in fact , as most ,if not all, seem to disagree.......it certainly looks that way, or maybe those that do support your ideas have stayed silent, knowing that you are making a great case and we'll all be brought into line soon enough. .....

PS      still waiting for the definitive structure that dictates who should and who shouldnt have to prequalify.