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The Gingerking

Main Stand. Have we missed a trick?

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Posted (edited)

Hi Folks, long time regular reader, rare poster, back after a long absence🔰.

Apologies if this point has been raised recently already, but surely an interesting topic during strange times:

Has the club perhaps missed/ going to miss a prime opportunity to redevelop the City Stand during the ongoing Covid disruption?

Let me add please, I pose the question for discussion only. I fully appreciate that on a practical level you’d have to be pretty darn ballsy in business terms to risk pouring millions into ground redevelopment in the face of complete uncertainty about if, when, how and in what capacity numbers crowds will return.

 

Lots of theoretical ‘ifs’ also:

 

If the finance was readily available.

 

If board was willing to invest in the ground at this time (we know this development has been intended in the past). 

 

If the construction plans were already in place and approved.

 

If the work could take place with no ongoing impact to fixtures played at home (pitch unaffected)

Then the window of no supporters would surely be (and continues to be) an absolutely prime opportunity to carry out construction work with none-to-minimal disruption to supporters.

Now, I fully appreciate the answer to those first three ‘ifs’ is likely ‘NO’ at present, however, given that we are now very likely to be promoted again, given that full crowds may not return till at least late summer (and let’s face it, likely much later), appreciating it would still take considerable bravery in investment, should the club be looking to carry out this construction work during this enforced crowd-less window?

Could this be the one and only opportunity to future proof the ground for the next decade or two without affecting crowd numbers at all?

As I said, devils advocate only here, realise there is still massive uncertainty in most sectors and indeed, many aspects of life. Be gentleđŸ˜‰đŸ‘đŸ»

OTBC🔰

 

Edited by The Gingerking
Poor grammar
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Posted (edited)

Welcome / welcome back, Gingerking!

In many ways, it would have been a prime opportunity to develop the stand - for all of the reasons that you've mentioned plus the fact that the dressing rooms, press areas and hospitality suites are all located in the City Stand.

I think that they would have considered the prospect of making the move but ultimately they:

a) Already have a 20 million pound hole in the finances.

b) Need to put all resources back into getting promoted, and

c) Can't risk the future of the club.

It's difficult to see when they will make that investment though. It was revealed that they have taken steps towards doing it but have made it clear that we would need a few seasons in the PL before being in a position to do so. 

To be honest, I think we'd have to get PL TV money, a strong PL squad plus a large injection of cash - most likely from the sales of Buendia, Cantwell and Aarons - before we can do it IMO. 

Edited by Yellow and Green

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Posted (edited)

It's a very good question from Gingerking and I think that Yellow and Green summed it up pretty well.

One argument against investment into physical capital is investment opportunities into human capital. There is upside to being a bit stingy in the past: Norwich's comparatively strong financial position. Our competitiveness in the player market has improved relative to others. There is no better time to be 2-3 expedient signings/loans away from being fully competitive in PL.

Edited by Upo

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We easily raised the money for the academy upgrade so probably should have done the same during the pandemic.

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Without very significant investment from either new Board members or external sponsorship, I really can’t see it happening.  The only way I could envisage a larger capacity would be if the Club sold the whole Carrow Road site for redevelopment and used the proceeds to fund the building of a completely new ground on the edge of the City, which is something I’m really not sure many would want to happen.

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5 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Without very significant investment from either new Board members or external sponsorship, I really can’t see it happening.  The only way I could envisage a larger capacity would be if the Club sold the whole Carrow Road site for redevelopment and used the proceeds to fund the building of a completely new ground on the edge of the City, which is something I’m really not sure many would want to happen.

<Waits for someone to mention Tom Cavendish>

 

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3 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

<Waits for someone to mention Tom Cavendish>

 

Perhaps some sort of peppercorn rent arrangement with the UEA? 

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10 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Without very significant investment from either new Board members or external sponsorship, I really can’t see it happening.  The only way I could envisage a larger capacity would be if the Club sold the whole Carrow Road site for redevelopment and used the proceeds to fund the building of a completely new ground on the edge of the City, which is something I’m really not sure many would want to happen.

Land purchased recently was surely with a view to build a new City stand. We don’t need a new stadium, Carrow road just needs a minor facelift.

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32 minutes ago, Felixfan said:

We easily raised the money for the academy upgrade so probably should have done the same during the pandemic.

Times have been too uncertain for another Canary Bond scheme. Could be a good idea when the time comes if the club wants to borrow money to help a rebuild or extenion to the City Stand, but really, a rebuild is only likely to happen if we have saved enough money up front to be able to afford to do it without borrowing anything.

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15 minutes ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Perhaps some sort of peppercorn rent arrangement with the UEA? 

I thought he suggested we move to Broadland Business Park as a new rail link was to be built there ?

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sell max and build a new South stand , we were selling out in league 1  , so they're be no problem filling it .😂

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Yellow and Green said:

Welcome / welcome back, Gingerking!

In many ways, it would have been a prime opportunity to develop the stand - for all of the reasons that you've mentioned plus the fact that the dressing rooms, press areas and hospitality suites are all located in the City Stand.

I think that they would have considered the prospect of making the move but ultimately they:

a) Already have a 20 million pound hole in the finances.

b) Need to put all resources back into getting promoted, and

c) Can't risk the future of the club.

It's difficult to see when they will make that investment though. It was revealed that they have taken steps towards doing it but have made it clear that we would need a few seasons in the PL before being in a position to do so. 

To be honest, I think we'd have to get PL TV money, a strong PL squad plus a large injection of cash - most likely from the sales of Buendia, Cantwell and Aarons - before we can do it IMO. 

That’s a good reply, thanks Y&G.

Just interested in the comment regarding a 20 mill hole in the finances. I wonder, was that predicated on staying at this level and would effectively be negated by promotion?

Also, thanks to others for comments so far. Whilst not wishing to oversteer the thread, rather than it descend into the usual debate about the form of future development of the club’s stadium (I can see others are aware of the perils of that, aware of the legacy Tom Cavendish debates), could we safely assume that the most likely action for increasing capacity is to redevelop the Main/ City Stand in the clubs existing location.

I am simply asking if with promotion now very likely the club should be pushing to achieve this during Covid times(?).

I think that most ‘discussion veterans’ will be well familiar with the normal secondary reason given for not getting this work done (assuming finance is the primary) is the disturbance and disruption it will cause to supporters and facilities. 

Surely during these strange times that secondary reason is almost invalid. Facilities wise, it’s not beyond imagination that a temporary facility for dressing rooms/ press etc could be fairly easily found or erected on another side of the ground (likely South).

It strikes me that for the sake of perhaps the sale cost of a single player, whom may be inevitable sold anyway, we have a prime opportunity over the next year to get the job done without too much impact on supporter numbers.

 

As soon as we are back in better times with a full crowd, there becomes that normal logistical nightmare of shifting everyone around, upsetting lots of loyal fans, whichever way you do it.

That simply doesn’t apply to same degree right now. A three sided stadium in the Prem will also unlikely be a limiting factor or handicap for a while yet as nobody will have capacity crowds for a considerable time yet.

With promotion firmly  on the horizon now, one wonders if this is this perfect moment to get this done.

 

Edited by The Gingerking

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

P.S. any relation to Ginger Pele OP?

No, can’t claim that. 
Have posted before, so some may remember me, but not since about 2012/2013.

I remember seeing GP for sure.

Edited by The Gingerking

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Upo said:

It's a very good question from Gingerking and I think that Yellow and Green summed it up pretty well.

One argument against investment into physical capital is investment opportunities into human capital. There is upside to being a bit stingy in the past: Norwich's comparatively strong financial position. Our competitiveness in the player market has improved relative to others. There is no better time to be 2-3 expedient signings/loans away from being fully competitive in PL.

Another nice reply, cheers, UpođŸ‘đŸ»

All I’d say there is that we seem to have a fairly sound production line of ‘human capital’ in place.
It also seems that our policy regarding this is pretty much set in stone. Whatever happens, it seems the club will intentionally avoid anymore ‘RVW’ or ‘Naismith’ type scenarios going forward. That is simply not the way we are going to do business anymore (Although one could cheekily argue, 15-20 mill on Skipp might seem a credible investment right now, though let’s face it, Spurs would never sell him).

Those things being the case, surely we may as well pour any ‘surplus’ income into the physical capital at most opportune moment. One would argue, that moment could be right now and the window is diminishing.

Edited by The Gingerking
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Posted (edited)

We need to wait until the 'post Covid' world pans out. Having a 27,000 capacity stadium might not that mean that many are allowed in. 

Unintentionally we have missed a trick but it would have been brave, and possibly inappropriate having furloughed non playing staff.

Edited by Capt. Pants
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1 minute ago, Branston Pickle said:

IMO there’s far too much uncertainty to have risked the finances required, so definite no from me.

Respect that.

Admittedly, I almost check myself for even thinking about it at this point in time when all stadiums are empty and who knows what the long term impact on numbers will be.

Despite all that though, there’s a little voice continually whispering “fortune favours the brave” and hence, had to share it.

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When the south stand was rebuilt, was it not designed that the foundations that would allow another tier could be added without any additional foundation work? Perhaps my grey cells malfunctioning. 

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I think in such uncertain and unprecedented times it would have potentially been suicidal. It's easy to say now with this season going so well but what if we were struggling like Bournemouth?

There's also an argument with a circa 20m loss from Covid 19 that building another stand would have left us unable to strengthen properly for the Premier League. I'd be interested to see how fans handled that and if they'd keep their bottle - something tells me the usual one's wouldn't and it'd all get a bit sour.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think in such uncertain and unprecedented times it would have potentially been suicidal. It's easy to say now with this season going so well but what if we were struggling like Bournemouth?

There's also an argument with a circa 20m loss from Covid 19 that building another stand would have left us unable to strengthen properly for the Premier League. I'd be interested to see how fans handled that and if they'd keep their bottle - something tells me the usual one's wouldn't and it'd all get a bit sour.

I think part of what I’m saying, Hogesar, is that whilst I agree, it would have looked like sheer insanity at the start of the season, a massive amount of financial insecurity is likely about to be removed.

Therefore now is maybe the first moment to push ahead full speed. 
 

I also agree, there is a massive risk in in the investment should we end up with emphatic relegation again (assuming promotion) in that it may upset fans.

One feels though somehow that’s not going to be the case this time. I think we are stronger and better equipped at base now.

Edited by The Gingerking

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9 minutes ago, Jakarta Canary said:

When the south stand was rebuilt, was it not designed that the foundations that would allow another tier could be added without any additional foundation work? Perhaps my grey cells malfunctioning. 

You are incorrect in your thinking about the South Stand. The Club have fairly recently purchased a parcel of land between Carrow Road and Koblenz Avenue at the rear of The City Stand obviously in order at some stage to redevelop.

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9 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

You are incorrect in your thinking about the South Stand. The Club have fairly recently purchased a parcel of land between Carrow Road and Koblenz Avenue at the rear of The City Stand obviously in order at some stage to redevelop.

I know about the recent purchase. Agree about City Stand but grey cells remembering spread in EEN with diagrams showing the option, maybe need to rethink cells memory. I would agree City Stand is next to be developed. 

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This has been discussed before but an interesting post from the OP and good replies.

I may be wrong but I don’t think any club even those much better placed than ours has embarked on any new stadium expansion post Covid. Too much uncertainty.

At some point the City Stand will need rebuilding but I can’t see there ever being a time when we are an ‘established ‘ top tier club. We’ll need to take a gamble at some point.

 

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Just now, ......and Smith must score. said:

This has been discussed before but an interesting post from the OP and good replies.

I may be wrong but I don’t think any club even those much better placed than ours has embarked on any new stadium expansion post Covid. Too much uncertainty.

At some point the City Stand will need rebuilding but I can’t see there ever being a time when we are an ‘established ‘ top tier club. We’ll need to take a gamble at some point.

 

Like that and agree, it is very likely going to be an inevitable gamble at some point. (Why not now?)

I have to say also, given that as you quite rightly pointed out, no other club has been brave (or arguably stupid😉) enough to embark on expansion projects in the last year or so, it would personally make me slightly excited and possibly somewhat proud to think NCFC once again had the immense vision to do things differently.

 

 

 

 

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If we are ever going to do it then i cannot conceive of better circumstances in which to have done it.

So a clear yes, we missed a trick from me.

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2 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

If we are ever going to do it then i cannot conceive of better circumstances in which to have done it.

So a clear yes, we missed a trick from me.

With a monetary gap of at least £25M, to make up and uncertainty regarding fans returns.  

Seriously? 

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8 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

With a monetary gap of at least £25M, to make up and uncertainty regarding fans returns.  

Seriously? 

Yes, seriously.

If plans were in place then we could have completed the work with no impact on crowds or match day income.  We could have borrowed at historically low interest rates or via a bond Scheme that would been supported.

We are almost guaranteed at least one year in the Premier league and  parachute payments as a fall back. We also have some very sellable assets to plug any holes that might come up.

Crowd returns next season are not guaranteed 100% but these restrictions cannot last forever.

Some of this we know with hindsight but that doesn't mean we didn't get the gamble wrong.  You can be understandably wrong , but wrong nonetheless.

What circumstances do you think could ever arise that would be more ideal?

 

 

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