horsefly 4,282 Posted March 11, 2021 Just listened to Jess Phillips reading out the names of women killed by men in the last year. An appalling 118 names (one every 3 days). She has done this for many years now and nothing has changed. Time has surely come for men to address the issue of the toxic masculinity that lies behind these terrible figures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheGunnShow 5,929 Posted March 11, 2021 I'll start with a disclaimer, namely that I am aware the following is in the most general of terms. There is a toxic masculinity issue, but I think the focus should be in a different place - by focusing on violence against women we run the risk of making it a "battle of the sexes" where IMO there really is no need for such a battle. Classic case - suicides. Put simply, young men are far more likely to off themselves. They don't just harm women...badly integrated men harm everyone. It's increasingly documented that women keep better social ties than men, and also that women tend to rebound from relationship breakdowns quicker. The current hypothesis behind this is that their better social ties help with this. Men are essentially conditioned to think they should devote everything to their partner at the expense of good friendships, relatively speaking. Worse still, men are often told just to "suck it up" or "be a man". Increasingly, being a man = offing yourself due to stigma around mental illness (and also poor mental service provision, so another reason to appreciate the stance by Harry and Meghan) and it not being considered "manly" to ask for help when sorely needed. In short, part of toxic masculinity is lone-wolfing yourself into oblivion when you need help. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Real Buh 3,423 Posted March 11, 2021 This thread is bait people just be aware 1 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daly 500 Posted March 11, 2021 I’ll take the bait Hang them Murders used to make the front page now 90% plus don’t make the Nationals Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159 Posted March 11, 2021 Male violence and rape is just not being prosecuted in this country. Now judges retirement age has been extended to 75 this might even get worse. But there is a good debate going here. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/03/what-can-we-learn-from-the-terrible-fate-of-sarah-everard/comment-page-2/#comment-981789 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill 1,788 Posted March 11, 2021 Violence of this level is that of the bully, and is not curbed by righty nonsense of string ;em all up. As if that were the case then the supposed lax sentencing would suggest it is merely the deterrent effect that is stopping all men from being violent attackers, rather than there being other reasons for them not being killers. Aside from the obvious horrors of these murders and associated violence it would be interesting to see how the UK murder rate in this area compares to other similar countries to see where there is some cultural or societal cause - and how many of those murdered knew their murderer, or were murdered by strangers 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,324 Posted March 11, 2021 3 hours ago, horsefly said: Just listened to Jess Phillips reading out the names of women killed by men in the last year. An appalling 118 names (one every 3 days). She has done this for many years now and nothing has changed. Time has surely come for men to address the issue of the toxic masculinity that lies behind these terrible figures. There were 682 men murdered last year (almost six every three days). Why didn't Jess Phillips read out their names? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MooreMarriot 307 Posted March 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said: There were 682 men murdered last year (almost six every three days). Why didn't Jess Phillips read out their names? The correct comparison would be the number of men killed by women. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Indy 3,283 Posted March 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said: There were 682 men murdered last year (almost six every three days). Why didn't Jess Phillips read out their names? What is it with you, do you just come on here to pick fights? Domestic abuse either way is never fully investigated nor intervention made before things escalate. It’s a sad fact that most of the time it’s caused by family or financial pressure and fuelled by drink, there are a few cases of just pure evil b******ds too. RTB raises a point which I agree with, though his manner is a little questionable, but murder in this country appears to be less of a crime than fraud! Makes you wonder where our legal system priority points! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orly 277 Posted March 11, 2021 1 hour ago, MooreMarriot said: The correct comparison would be the number of men killed by women. Does this include stress-induced heart attacks? 😉 . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,324 Posted March 11, 2021 31 minutes ago, Indy said: What is it with you, do you just come on here to pick fights? Domestic abuse either way is never fully investigated nor intervention made before things escalate. It’s a sad fact that most of the time it’s caused by family or financial pressure and fuelled by drink, there are a few cases of just pure evil b******ds too. RTB raises a point which I agree with, though his manner is a little questionable, but murder in this country appears to be less of a crime than fraud! Makes you wonder where our legal system priority points! I don't come to pick fights, I come to bring context where posters do not provide it. It's not what posters say, it's often what they don't say that is more illuminating. So men are six times more likely to be a victim of homicide than women but Jess Phillips doesn't stand up in Parliament and mention this inconvenient truth. Sorry if people find facts offensive. Sorry, not sorry. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,324 Posted March 11, 2021 2 hours ago, MooreMarriot said: The correct comparison would be the number of men killed by women. I'm sure that would be of great comfort to the 682 men that were murdered last year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herman 9,710 Posted March 12, 2021 If the 682 men were murdered by women you may have a point. But as it is you are desperately trying to provoke a row with some snide misogyny. If women don't feel safe walking home, if they have to hide away under some self inflicted curfew then this country has a serious problem and your usual whataboutery isn't going to fix it. 3 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheGunnShow 5,929 Posted March 12, 2021 8 hours ago, Rock The Boat said: I'm sure that would be of great comfort to the 682 men that were murdered last year. And if most were murdered by men then it's further weight to the initial post about a toxic brand of masculinity, is it not? 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benchwarmer 624 Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) It would appear that toxic masculinity extends to all crimes. In 2018 the prison population of England and Wales was 95% male, and prison does nothing but reinforce it. Edited March 12, 2021 by benchwarmer 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,282 Posted March 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, benchwarmer said: It would appear that toxic masculinity extends to all crimes. In 2018 the prison population of England and Wales was 95% male. Expect RTB to tell us, "It's the women who made them do it" anytime soon. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cambridgeshire canary 6,675 Posted March 12, 2021 so out of 33 million women in this country just over 100 were killed? I mean, 100 is still 100 too many, but come on. That's what, less than 0.1 percent of the female population of the UIK Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,489 Posted March 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said: so out of 33 million women in this country just over 100 were killed? I mean, 100 is still 100 too many, but come on. That's what, less than 0.1 percent of the female population of the UIK What if one (just one) was your daughter? Or your sister? Or your mother? And what if they were not murdered but threatened (let's say emotionally....that they could anticipate what would happen if they did X or Y....) for all the time you'd known them? Or if they were controlled (let's say financially or physically.....not allowed to buy certain things or leave the house at weekends or go out with friends without getting permission)? Blimey, there are loads more examples. Yet, this is the daily experience of millions CC. I agree not 118 or 0.1%.....but millions! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benchwarmer 624 Posted March 12, 2021 Have you heard "A Stitch in Time" sung by Christy Moore? It's about a man who drinks and beats his wife and how she teaches him a lesson. Very earthy, marvellous stuff. You can find it on YouTube. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daly 500 Posted March 12, 2021 Prison is no deterrent for murderers, read the Jeffrey Archer prison diaries Recollect something like 80 plus killers in the open prison where he was. Regular visits to the local town taking booze etc back Own room with all amenities Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daly 500 Posted March 12, 2021 1 minute ago, benchwarmer said: Have you heard "A Stitch in Time" sung by Christy Moore? It's about a man who drinks and beats his wife and how she teaches him a lesson. Very earthy, marvellous stuff. You can find it on YouTube. Read the Burning Bed for a woman scorned Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naturalcynic 628 Posted March 12, 2021 13 hours ago, MooreMarriot said: The correct comparison would be the number of men killed by women. No, it really wouldn’t. It’s about safety on the streets. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canary Wundaboy 1,358 Posted March 12, 2021 47 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said: so out of 33 million women in this country just over 100 were killed? I mean, 100 is still 100 too many, but come on. That's what, less than 0.1 percent of the female population of the UIK That's 100 women who are someone's daughter. Do you have the emotional range of a teaspoon? The title of this thread is "Male Violence". RTB has correctly pointed out that more men are killed in this country than women, but has accidentally supported the main argument, that men are the issue, whether it's men killing men, men killing women or men killing themselves. As a gender we need to address toxic masculinity whether it's stopping men from seeking support when they feel low, from participating in violence to assert their dominance over other men, ot attempting to assert male dominance over women in the form of sexual assault or rape. These men only take other men seriously., so the 99% of us that aren't violent and respect women have to take more responsibility to call out this toxic behaviour, change the behaviours and deal with with the causes. I have a 14-month-old daughter and the thought of her growing up in this society scares me to death. It's about time women had their voices heard and more importantly, men listened. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naturalcynic 628 Posted March 12, 2021 What I find galling is the inevitable jumping on the bandwagon of the tragic death of Sarah Everard by left-wing misandrists despite the fact that men are far more likely to be killed than women. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,679 Posted March 12, 2021 Facts and data are meaningless. More men are murdered by their spouses than the other way round. But of course, as we know, many women kill their husbands because they have suffered years of abuse. So the fact doesn't reveal the reason. I am totally at odds with all the major discussions at the moment. There is plenty of talk, plenty of blame but I haven't heard one solution to ending racism, domestic violence, homophobia, mysogyny. Probably because there isn't one. If I was to say I am not racist, homophobic, mysogynistic or ever used domestic violence someone will no doubt say I'm virtue signalling. And then another argument starts without a solution. We have to realise that sometimes in life, there is no apparent reason for things, so no solution. There are hateful, nasty, spiteful, violent people in this world who will no more listen to or respect the view of the majority. Stop looking for reasons why they are like it. Stop looking to label things. Punishment is obviously not something these people consider. Reason certainly isn't. But in this latest case, stop labelling men as the ones to sort it out. What the hell can I do to stop it? I do behave myself and have respect for everyone especially women. Also, do not label women based on their clothing, appearance, attitude or demeanour. But also don't do the same to anyone else. (You are allowed a fleeting moment of guilt if you see someone in an Ipswich shirt). People have been trying to analyse football violence for over 50 years. And one partial reason it stopped in grounds was all seater stadia. Didn't need behavioural scientists. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benchwarmer 624 Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said: What I find galling is the inevitable jumping on the bandwagon of the tragic death of Sarah Everard by left-wing misandrists despite the fact that men are far more likely to be killed than women. Men are killed for many reasons, but simply for being a man is not one of them. Gay men are killed because they are gay, not because they are men. Women are killed by men because they are women. Safety on the streets is an issue for everyone, but women subject to domestic violence are at greatest risk in their own homes. That's where most women are killed by men; Sarah Everard's case is high profile but not at all typical. I tend to agree by the way about bandwagon-jumping, but you're missing the point. Edited March 12, 2021 by benchwarmer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canary Wundaboy 1,358 Posted March 12, 2021 11 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said: But in this latest case, stop labelling men as the ones to sort it out. What the hell can I do to stop it? I do behave myself and have respect for everyone especially women. I asked my wife the same question, she advised that we need to be calling out behaviours and attitudes that contribute to the objectification of women, which are known to lead to some men feeling justified in their actions of harassment, sexual assault and, in worse cases, rape. It isn't enough to say "I'm not one of the bad ones", we need to be actively working against those that are. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,679 Posted March 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said: I asked my wife the same question, she advised that we need to be calling out behaviours and attitudes that contribute to the objectification of women, which are known to lead to some men feeling justified in their actions of harassment, sexual assault and, in worse cases, rape. It isn't enough to say "I'm not one of the bad ones", we need to be actively working against those that are. I accept that CW but I don't know any of these people. So how do I call them out? What is actively working against? Has your wife said exactly what any action entails? And will the same be true of the countless women we have seen in the KKK, Robinson's crew and Trump supporters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Real Buh 3,423 Posted March 12, 2021 “If I agree with her maybe she’ll touch it” 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benchwarmer 624 Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said: And will the same be true of the countless women we have seen in the KKK, Robinson's crew and Trump supporters. Members of the groups you name need calling out regardless of whether they are male or female. Gender is irrelevant. You sound a bit upset and bewildered, and I sympathise. Some men, especially older men, feel they are all being tarred with the same brush. They aren't, but if they were it would be sexist. However, no one is immune to influences from the culture in which they live. What really needs to change is for men to realise that being macho man is neither big nor clever and stunts their growth as human beings. It isn't just down to men either. Women too need to avoid reinforcing toxic male stereotypes. Edited March 12, 2021 by benchwarmer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites