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Just now, Herman said:

Who has been "cancelled"? The ones making the most noise seem to be regularly in print or TV. 

There have been plenty who have had speaking gigs pulled due to outside pressure, universities being particularly bad for it. Many old feminists who speak against the transgender debate, or right leaning academics (though they’re few and far between) who refuse to go along with what many currently class as “Woke” viewpoints have had their speeches cancelled due to pressure or threats of violence.

I think it’s shameful that places bow to this pressure personally, especially universities that are supposed to be places of learning. 

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44 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Divisions will always exist, that wasn’t the point I was making. Unless you’re going to force equality of outcome it will always be a fact of life. I just think those at the bottom should have the opportunity of a comfortable life, family home, kids, bit spare for a holiday etc. 

It was the attitudes of those in the various groups I was alluding too. The middle class are currently obsessed with privilege for example but have a massive blind spot of their own

I am not so concerned with equality of outcome, as equality of opportunity. If we all have the same chance, those who decide not to take it cannot complain.

But there will be many who will be unable to seize that opportunity, and that is what the Welfare State is for.

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15 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I am not so concerned with equality of outcome, as equality of opportunity. If we all have the same chance, those who decide not to take it cannot complain.

But there will be many who will be unable to seize that opportunity, and that is what the Welfare State is for.

I think by and large we’re making the same point in slightly different ways. More and more jobs are almost reserved for those born into the middle classes due to the obstacles of entry to them such as the examples I mentioned.

It’s less subtle than the old class system, now under the guise of meritocracy but the barriers are still there, and most that benefit will flat out deny the leg ups they’ve had. They believe their success is solely down to their own abilities, and seem to have less sympathy for those left behind than even the old upper classes

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53 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

There have been plenty who have had speaking gigs pulled due to outside pressure, universities being particularly bad for it. Many old feminists who speak against the transgender debate, or right leaning academics (though they’re few and far between) who refuse to go along with what many currently class as “Woke” viewpoints have had their speeches cancelled due to pressure or threats of violence.

I think it’s shameful that places bow to this pressure personally, especially universities that are supposed to be places of learning. 

I think these occurrences are rare as hen's teeth but it is being pushed as an everyday thing. It suits an agenda of victimhood which helps draw in others. It's a false belief and people that are peddling it know this but it helps get their name out and about. Any keen student of history will know it has been done before.

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No doubt some will try to say Morgan was cancelled when he actually:

1. Left the broadcast himself, and
2. Resigned. 

Same with the curation of the Dr. Seuss books. They voluntarily took it upon themselves, so this notion of their being cancelled is merely dog-whistling not borne in fact.

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3 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

No doubt some will try to say Morgan was cancelled when he actually:

1. Left the broadcast himself, and
2. Resigned. 

Same with the curation of the Dr. Seuss books. They voluntarily took it upon themselves, so this notion of their being cancelled is merely dog-whistling not borne in fact.

Add

3. He's gone but will be back

Then to quote Meatloaf "two out of three ain't bad"

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

There have been plenty who have had speaking gigs pulled due to outside pressure, universities being particularly bad for it. Many old feminists who speak against the transgender debate, or right leaning academics (though they’re few and far between) who refuse to go along with what many currently class as “Woke” viewpoints have had their speeches cancelled due to pressure or threats of violence.

I think it’s shameful that places bow to this pressure personally, especially universities that are supposed to be places of learning. 

There's a huge storm in a teacup surrounding this whole debate. Below quote at bottom taken from a BBC article. I'm all for free speech but I also believe that some people's views, are quite frankly utter **** that's not worthy of the Oxygen.

People who abuse the right to free speech to peddle lies with the explicit intent to sow division - Farage, Trump and co amongst them, should have been no-platformed a long time ago. The problem with free speech is that it is incompatible with the age of misinformation. Those people are the real threat to free speech, because by abusing it to within an inch of it's life, they normalise hatred and bigotry based on thin air. I'm not of the opinion that anyone who is not "woke" should not have the right to free speech, or indeed a platform but anyone who purposefully peddles demonstrable lies and misinformation or actively pursues vendettas against specific races/groups should not have a platform to spread that message. They can say what they like, but they can shout into the wind on a street corner - they shouldn't be allowed to use our places of learning to spread lies.

Godwin's law here but look at what a young Adolf Hitler did by giving speeches in German beer halls, and look where that ended up. Yes, there is freedom of speech but you cannot allow freedom of speech to supercede basic decency and the human rights of minority groups. You give the lunatics a platform, and they will find some followers... it's a slippery slope from there. Hitler wasn't inciting violence, at least not for the first several years... but he was creating an atmosphere, he was setting a tone, he was sowing the seeds for what came next.

One of my biggest regrets of my youth, is David Icke did a talk at my Sixth Form college and I didn't attend. He shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near an educational establishment though as he's utterly bat****.

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Edited by kick it off
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2 hours ago, Herman said:

I think these occurrences are rare as hen's teeth but it is being pushed as an everyday thing. It suits an agenda of victimhood which helps draw in others. It's a false belief and people that are peddling it know this but it helps get their name out and about. Any keen student of history will know it has been done before.

Jordan Peterson - Offer to work at Cambridge University Divinity Faculty withdrawn.

Selina Todd - Offer to appear at Oxford International Women’s Festival withdrawn.

Felix Ngole - Removed from course at Sheffield University.

Tim Hunt - Forced to resign from UCL

Jo Phoenix - Offer to talk at Essex University withdrawn.

Noah Carl - Dismissed as Research Fellow at Cambridge University.

Jenni Murray - Withdrew under pressure from talk at Oxford University.

Kathleen Stock - Offer to talk at UEA withdrawn.

James Bennet - Forced to resign from NY Times

Julie Burchill - Forced to leave Guardian and book publisher offer withdrawn

Andy Ngo - Violently assaulted and numerous bookstores removed book due to threats and pressure. 
 

I found these examples within a couple of minutes on Google. If I had the inclination  I could spend hours and find plenty more, but I feel that’s enough to show that it happens much more than you pretend 

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Anyway, we’re getting off topic so I’ll leave it there before it descends into nonsense like so many other threads. 

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Posted (edited)

Looking at that list it's not the "new left" it's gay and trans rights activists you have a problem with. (A couple admittedly are neo-nazis so why they are anywhere near civilisation is anyone's guess. Andy Ngo,ffs.)

Edited by Herman
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11 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Jordan Peterson - Offer to work at Cambridge University Divinity Faculty withdrawn.

Selina Todd - Offer to appear at Oxford International Women’s Festival withdrawn.

Felix Ngole - Removed from course at Sheffield University.

Tim Hunt - Forced to resign from UCL

Jo Phoenix - Offer to talk at Essex University withdrawn.

Noah Carl - Dismissed as Research Fellow at Cambridge University.

Jenni Murray - Withdrew under pressure from talk at Oxford University.

Kathleen Stock - Offer to talk at UEA withdrawn.

James Bennet - Forced to resign from NY Times

Julie Burchill - Forced to leave Guardian and book publisher offer withdrawn

Andy Ngo - Violently assaulted and numerous bookstores removed book due to threats and pressure. 
 

I found these examples within a couple of minutes on Google. If I had the inclination  I could spend hours and find plenty more, but I feel that’s enough to show that it happens much more than you pretend 

 I don't remember Burchill (who once wrote a piece saying she was delighted John Lennon had been murdered) being forced to leave The Guardian any time recently, if ever, and if one publisher doesn't want to publish her book another will. That is capitalism and press freedom for publishers. The alternative would be state control of publishing in which companies were forced to bring out books they did not want to.

As to the rest, one would need the context as to why these people were cancelled, in whatever way. A list like that is meant to give the impression all these cancellations were unjustified, when that is unlikely to be the case. As it happens I susbscribe to the NYT and Bennet being sacked was a much more complicated case, with some previous incidents being taken into account, to be simplistically categorised as an example of cancel culture gone mad.

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1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

 I don't remember Burchill (who once wrote a piece saying she was delighted John Lennon had been murdered) being forced to leave The Guardian any time recently, if ever, and if one publisher doesn't want to publish her book another will. That is capitalism and press freedom for publishers. The alternative would be state control of publishing in which companies were forced to bring out books they did not want to.

As to the rest, one would need the context as to why these people were cancelled, in whatever way. A list like that is meant to give the impression all these cancellations were unjustified, when that is unlikely to be the case. As it happens I susbscribe to the NYT and Bennet being sacked was a much more complicated case, with some previous incidents being taken into account, to be simplistically categorised as an example of cancel culture gone mad.

 

There are few more ludicrous campaigns that the uprising against this supposed cancel culture, exemplified by the absurdity of Piers Morgan trying to make himself a martyr.

For several decades he has had the opportunity, given to very few, and gleefully taken, to shout his opinions to the world. As a print columnist and later as the editor of a national newspaper. Then as a nationwide TV presenter/interviewer/opinionator in the US and later in the UK.

Finally one person gets fed up with this foghorn bellowing and answers back, with a valid point, and Morgan claims he is the victim. Adding for staggeringly self-important good measure a quote from Churchill he is too stupidly self-centred to realise actually applies against rather than for him.

And then, if he hadn’t already proved his lack of self-knowledge saying ‘’Freedom of expression is a hill I am willing to die on,’’ while still having the Daily Mail as his fan-club mouthpiece and knowing he will walk into another job that gives him freedom of expression whenever he wants.

The general point is that the others on that list of Fen’s are more or less in the same privileged position. If one organisation blocks Jordan Peterson another will let him speak. With his book deals and talks and website he is hardly unable to get his views across to the world.

Selina Todd was barred from one event, but still has her job, her academic publications and her own website to say what she likes. Jenni Murray was banned from one talk but over decades she has been able to influence people via the BBC, and she has twitter and even now the columns of the Mail to go on doing so, with Prince Harry the latest target. That idiot Laurence Fox still finds ways to make a public fool of himself despite painting himself another martyr of victim of cancel culture. And so on...

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Not having gone to University, could you tell me whether there is a fee involved and consequential ticket price regarding guest speakers?

Is so, maybe some are cancelled due to lack of interest.

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where is the freedom of universities to decide

if I were a parent would it be 'cancel future' if my local school decided that my invite for a talk by Gary Glitter was not appropriate .

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Posted (edited)

The irony is that those who claim to be "cancelled" have no problems getting that stance out into the open. Even more hilarious, this is in a printed media realm that is largely right-wing. The Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph, Daily Express, and to a lesser extent the Times and the Financial Times are all right-wing papers.

The other irritant is the frequently wailed quip that "everyone's entitled to an opinion".

It's missing a key word out. Everyone's entitled to an INFORMED opinion.

 

Edited by TheGunnShow
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So the DoS has complained to Ofcom about Morgans remarks.

Isn't he entitled to his view? Just like her view that the Royal family is racist.

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On 10/03/2021 at 21:14, Herman said:

I think these occurrences are rare as hen's teeth but it is being pushed as an everyday thing. It suits an agenda of victimhood which helps draw in others. It's a false belief and people that are peddling it know this but it helps get their name out and about. Any keen student of history will know it has been done before.

Pre-covid, I noted a disturbingly large number of events being cancelled due to outside pressure.  I didn't keep a spreadsheet, but it was at least monthly (ish) from what I can remember anecdotally.  And that's just the western world.

That said, it wasn't much different back in my day at Uni (2000s), I personally was very intolerant of opposing opinions, because I was young, and I didn't know any better. 

I've since come to the realisation that life is very complicated, and that the likelihood that you / I happen to know with 100% accurancy "how things should be" is very small, and so I've learnt to be more tolerant of contrasting opinions.  Not that it was or is easy to do, of course.

As far as I can tell, part of the difference is the internet / social media / speed of information exchange that has changed the game, and regrettably for the worse as far as civil discourse goes, IMO.

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As an old-fashioned adherent to the Enlightenment principles of freedom and reason I would only ban a speaker if it can be shown that their speech is likely to breach laws banning incitement to violence. However, at the local level one might also expect the intitution/organisation concerned to make decisions about speaker invites that reflect the genuine intellectual merit of the speakers views. It is clear that some extreme groups on campuses invite speakers purely to cause controversy and to gaslight other students rather than for any genuine interest in debate. Universities must be environments in which all students have a right to equal respect. So, for example, the Holocaust denier David Irving's work has been shown to have no intellectual merit whatsoever, and an invite for him to speak on campus would be unjustified. Likewise for fundamentalist speakers whatever their theological hue. Compare those cases, however, to preventing someone like Jenni Murray talking about the implications of the recognition Trans people's rights. In her case there is clear evidence that the concerns she wished to raise had intellectual merit and were in no way inspired by a wish to gaslight a certain section of the community she wished to address. Yes, these are difficult decisions to make but we are certainly not without criteria on which to make them. 

It will be interesting to see if the right-wing, so obsessed with "cancel culture", will express their outrage at the cancellation of the BBC's Mash Report. Terrestrial tv is devoid of political satire (cf the US) and the cancellation of this popular show by a government supporting appointee stinks of the sort of censorship we decry of dictatorial regimes in China, North Korea, Russia etc.

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One simple but important fact the World seems to have forgotten - Megan Markle isn't black - she's white and much whiter than I will ever be

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Posted (edited)

Julie Birchall is in the news today. 

Edited by Herman

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On 14/03/2021 at 08:26, Taylor324 said:

One simple but important fact the World seems to have forgotten - Megan Markle isn't black - she's white and much whiter than I will ever be

Do you have a colour chart you can post so we can tell? I think you might be missing the point.

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

Julie Birchall is in the news today. 😀

One hell of a grovelling apology.

On 13 December 2020 I made defamatory statements about , which I sincerely regret and retract and have undertaken not to repeat. I have agreed to pay substantial damages to Ash Sarkar and her legal costs. Here is my full and wholehearted apology. Please retweet
 
 
Image
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Thanks for that. I have withdrawn the smiley face as I listened to Ash Sarkar explain what happened to her and it was pretty horrific what Birchall did. Nobody should complain that she has been cancelled. She fully deserves it. 

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1 hour ago, dj11 said:

One hell of a grovelling apology.

On 13 December 2020 I made defamatory statements about , which I sincerely regret and retract and have undertaken not to repeat. I have agreed to pay substantial damages to Ash Sarkar and her legal costs. Here is my full and wholehearted apology. Please retweet
 
 
Image

Just another sour old ex-Marxist who decided to keep her career alive by switching to right-wing hate speech. It's amazing how many of them there are from her generation who have taken that grubby road.

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Posted (edited)
On 11/03/2021 at 12:39, PurpleCanary said:

 I don't remember Burchill (who once wrote a piece saying she was delighted John Lennon had been murdered) being forced to leave The Guardian any time recently, if ever, and if one publisher doesn't want to publish her book another will. That is capitalism and press freedom for publishers. The alternative would be state control of publishing in which companies were forced to bring out books they did not want to.

As to the rest, one would need the context as to why these people were cancelled, in whatever way. A list like that is meant to give the impression all these cancellations were unjustified, when that is unlikely to be the case. As it happens I susbscribe to the NYT and Bennet being sacked was a much more complicated case, with some previous incidents being taken into account, to be simplistically categorised as an example of cancel culture gone mad.

Well well.

While Burchill has made a public climbdown, her book is back on track to be published. The Edinburgh-based publisher Stirling Publishing has acquired world rights to Welcome to the Woke Trials and plans to publish it later in the year.

Just to add, having been faced with the weight of real evidence Fen seems to have cancelled himself from this thread.

Edited by PurpleCanary

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The little clique of Birchill, Liddle, Young who purport to believe in free speech as long as its them handing out the insults, are despicable and oxygen to the hard liners in the Tory party.

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