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Harry and Meghan

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8 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

No - I can't be King Yellow Fever (or Head of State) however hard I work or whatever attributes I may have. That is called a class system. 

Do you want to be King? Personally I subscribe to the "anyone who wants power should be kept farthest from it" theory!

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17 hours ago, Herman said:

Piers has walked even further.🤣

Right off the end of the pier it seems.

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18 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

The class system in this country is not the powerful divider it once was. If you're willing to put the work in, you can accomplish whatever you want.

Well that is just spin. Money and celebrity is the new class system.

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1 hour ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

It's never happened though has it. She has the power, yes, but the Queen also understands that to actually use that power would cause a constitutional crisis the likes of which we haven't seen since the civil war. If you look at it another way however, imagine we had a prime minister in power who refused to accept the result of a democratic election, who incited an insurrection on the steps of Parliament and whose party refused all attempts to remove him from power, imagine we had our very own Trump/Hitler in Number 10, now imagine that there's just 1 additional check above that person who could bring the whole rotten mess down and who has zero self-interest other than the country itself (the Queen doesn't need money, fame, power etc). The reason the current system has survived as long as it has with the Queen as Head of State is because it acts as a natural limit on the power of the elected Head of State if Parliament refuse to do their duty.

I think Edward VIII disproved that.

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2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Well that is just spin. Money and celebrity is the new class system.

Money I'll grant you, but "celebrity" is only worth anything as long as you're in the spotlight. Celebrities burn bright and then burn out, it isn't permanent. I grant you that my opinion is based solely on my experience, but it simply doesn't matter which perceived "class" you're born into any longer, if you work hard and apply yourself anyone can earn money, buy a house, live comfortably. Sure I'm never going to own a country park, but I don't have to live in a rental just because my mum did either.

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2 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Money I'll grant you, but "celebrity" is only worth anything as long as you're in the spotlight. Celebrities burn bright and then burn out, it isn't permanent. I grant you that my opinion is based solely on my experience, but it simply doesn't matter which perceived "class" you're born into any longer, if you work hard and apply yourself anyone can earn money, buy a house, live comfortably. Sure I'm never going to own a country park, but I don't have to live in a rental just because my mum did either.

I don't think that is down to the class system but the success of the many organisations such as Labour, Unions, etc who have persuaded the privilege to listen more.

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47 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

No doubt some will try to spin it as an attack on freedom of speech, yet conflating it with "freedom of consequences". Not to mention the fact he walked and was not pushed.

A lot of these so called pundits keep whining about being silenced and cancelled when in reality they are simply being held to account for their opinions. And they really don't like being held to account. 

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13 minutes ago, Herman said:

A lot of these so called pundits keep whining about being silenced and cancelled when in reality they are simply being held to account for their opinions. And they really don't like being held to account. 

Precisely. Freedom of consequences.

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Posted (edited)

Not sure if I'm in a minority of one or two but there are many more current important stories about injustice and suffering....the folk grieving deaths of loved ones in a pandemic, the many people who have either lost their jobs or know they will face this fate once furlough ends. Then there are those working stacking shelves or driving delivery lorries worrying about paying the next lot of rent. Etc.

Now, there are issues I realise, but this all needs perspective. It strikes me that the timing of their complaints is rather infantile for one thing, or if I'm being more reasonable, mis-judged perhaps? Yet, there is a lucrative market for their brand isn't there? It all feels uncomfortable for me.

These two people have wonderful privilege and in having an A list celebrity at your wedding like Oprah W and then use her down the line to fine tune your message! It's cynical perhaps?

 

Edited by sonyc
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9 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Not sure if I'm in a minority of one or two but there are many more current important stories about injustice and suffering....the folk grieving deaths of loved ones in a pandemic, the many people who have either lost their jobs or know they will face this fate once furlough ends. Then there are those working stacking shelves or driving delivery lorries worrying about paying the next lot of rent. Etc.

Now, there are issues I realise, but this all needs perspective. It strikes me that the timing of their complaints is rather infantile for one thing, or if I'm being more reasonable, mis-judged perhaps? Yet, there is a lucrative market for their brand isn't there? It all feels uncomfortable for me.

These two people have wonderful privilege and in having an A list celebrity at your wedding like Oprah W and then use her down the line to fine tune your message! It's cynical perhaps?

 

Agreed SonyC - I feel the same - sells some redtops but the whole thing is a total irrelevance (or should be). I didn't watch interview but it looked pretty trite.

The trouble is I don't separate out Meghan and Harry from the Queen and DoE or Charles and Camilla. They are all inherently part and parcel of the same fundamental problem called the Royal Family.

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13 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Agreed SonyC - I feel the same - sells some redtops but the whole thing is a total irrelevance (or should be). I didn't watch interview but it looked pretty trite.

The trouble is I don't separate out Meghan and Harry from the Queen and DoE or Charles and Camilla. They are all inherently part and parcel of the same fundamental problem called the Royal Family.

Exactly, just another disfunctional family from the UK! 😉

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Although this is a handy distraction for some from more pressing issues, this saga does raise important questions about how this country is run now and in the future. Class, race, the monarchy, the state of the media etc. 

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3 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Do you want to be King? Personally I subscribe to the "anyone who wants power should be kept farthest from it" theory!

must make voting rather tricky

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1 hour ago, Indy said:

Exactly, just another disfunctional family from the UK! 😉

Haha! Apart from the excellent NHS roll-out of the vaccine, and the performance of NCFC, which bits of the UK could be described as functional?

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4 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

If you look at it another way however, imagine we had a prime minister in power who refused to accept the result of a democratic election, who incited an insurrection on the steps of Parliament and whose party refused all attempts to remove him from power, imagine we had our very own Trump/Hitler in Number 10, now imagine that there's just 1 additional check above that person who could bring the whole rotten mess down and who has zero self-interest other than the country itself (the Queen doesn't need money, fame, power etc). The reason the current system has survived as long as it has with the Queen as Head of State is because it acts as a natural limit on the power of the elected Head of State if Parliament refuse to do their duty.

So the hypothetical despot you describe is going to ignore all laws, ignore all precedent, ignore the democratic will of the country, grab power as a result of an armed insurrection, but then quietly apologise and give it all up because the Queen doesn’t give her blessing? 

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Surely it was Judges who prevented proroguing of parliament by Johnson and Rees Mogg.  

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22 minutes ago, Aggy said:

So the hypothetical despot you describe is going to ignore all laws, ignore all precedent, ignore the democratic will of the country, grab power as a result of an armed insurrection, but then quietly apologise and give it all up because the Queen doesn’t give her blessing? 

Don't forget she could call on the Beefeaters to sort him out, one look at their mighty ranks ought to be enough to have any tyrant begging for forgiveness.

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

Although this is a handy distraction for some from more pressing issues, this saga does raise important questions about how this country is run now and in the future. Class, race, the monarchy, the state of the media etc. 

Maybe this is one of those "dead cats" also🤔

You know the kind....the sort that takes your mind off how much track and trace has cost, the consultants being paid ÂŁ6600 per day (two or three days work and you're earning what many poorer folk earn in a year).

Or....that the EU are busy preparing their legal case for the Irish border issue.

....or the 1% being momentarily out of the news (which was probably just a first dead cat before 1.5% or 2% is offered).

Then.....well, we might fill a thread! Thank goodness for H&M thinks Johnson.

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I can't disagree with any of that Sonyc. The Oaf must be laughing,after being caught out lying to Parliament yet again, that celebrities are taking all the heat at the moment. And it is pretty much guaranteed the Mail doesn't want us to focus on the $hit sandwiches it has sold the country.

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6 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

The class system in this country is not the powerful divider it once was. If you're willing to put the work in, you can accomplish whatever you want.

Really? A curious viewpoint at a time we are governed by 20th Old Etonian to hold the post, the Chancellor is the son-in-law of a multi-billionaire and inequality has been rising since the 1970s. We have had three PMs since the War without a university education, including Churchill, and it is unlikely that the country will ever see another.

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5 hours ago, Herman said:

A lot of these so called pundits keep whining about being silenced and cancelled when in reality they are simply being held to account for their opinions. And they really don't like being held to account. 

This opinion, which seems to hold sway with those who push the identity politics agenda that freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom of consequences, is the most frightening aspect to me of the whole cancel culture debate. To me if a person has broken no laws (incitement, verbal assault etc) then by and large their personal opinions should be free of consequences. 
People are of course allowed to disagree, but nobody should lose their livelihood for their beliefs. Those on the new left (which bears little resemblance to the old) currently cheer it on because it’s usually those who express more conservative viewpoints who are punished, but would they support a boss who fired an employee for posting support for BLM if they claimed that the organisation’s association with rioting and violence over the summer wasn’t in keeping with the company values? 
This also isn’t a defence of Piers Morgan. Whilst I agree with him on the Markle interview that it all seemed incredibly vague and staged, I think his walkoff was a stunt.

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5 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Really? A curious viewpoint at a time we are governed by 20th Old Etonian to hold the post, the Chancellor is the son-in-law of a multi-billionaire and inequality has been rising since the 1970s. We have had three PMs since the War without a university education, including Churchill, and it is unlikely that the country will ever see another.

The class system is as bad as it ever was, and to me social mobility is actually worse than at any time since the war. Whilst the old class lines are more blurred, the stratification of society now exists under the guise of meritocracy. 
The media is a prime example, in that it’s now the preserve of the middle and upper classes. The demise of local papers means the only route into the media is now through unpaid internships, which for obvious reasons makes it almost impossible for those from poor backgrounds.

We see the same in other industries whereby on the job training used to be offered and a chance to progress, instead now require expensive university degrees for a starting position.

The worst thing is that those born lucky enough to have the means and support to overcome these obstacles are generally oblivious to the leg ups they’ve received, and think those left behind are lazy, stupid and undeserving, all the old class tropes were wheeled out during the Brexit arguments for instance. 
At least the old aristocracy knew they were born lucky!

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42 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

This opinion, which seems to hold sway with those who push the identity politics agenda that freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom of consequences, is the most frightening aspect to me of the whole cancel culture debate. To me if a person has broken no laws (incitement, verbal assault etc) then by and large their personal opinions should be free of consequences. 
People are of course allowed to disagree, but nobody should lose their livelihood for their beliefs. Those on the new left (which bears little resemblance to the old) currently cheer it on because it’s usually those who express more conservative viewpoints who are punished, but would they support a boss who fired an employee for posting support for BLM if they claimed that the organisation’s association with rioting and violence over the summer wasn’t in keeping with the company values? 
This also isn’t a defence of Piers Morgan. Whilst I agree with him on the Markle interview that it all seemed incredibly vague and staged, I think his walkoff was a stunt.

It's not really a left or right thing. If someone has really strong views they are going to have to accept that there is going to be push back on said opinions. I'm not advocating people losing their livlihood for their belief just acknowledgement that someone somewhere will tell them to STFU or take the mick out of them.

Although saying that, proper hate preaching, think Hopkins, Choudary, Robinson, I have no problem with them losing their jobs. Freedom of speech has responsibilities attached.

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40 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

The class system is as bad as it ever was, and to me social mobility is actually worse than at any time since the war.

Is the division by class or wealth or would you say that they are the same?

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15 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Is the division by class or wealth or would you say that they are the same?

By and large they’re the same thing now. You still have remnants of the old money and titles dotted around the country, but by and large they keep to themselves.
The much bigger division is between those in the middle classes and the rest of the country. I’ve seen it described as the “Somewhere’s and Anywhere’s,”

The Somewheres generally being poorer, more rooted in their communities, more likely to work in industries such as the trades or manufacturing and having a more conservative outlook, though paradoxically be more economically left leaning and protectionist. They tended to vote Conservative in the last election, even though Johnson is the complete opposite to themselves.

The Anywhere’s generally come from richer more middle class backgrounds, had access to better educational opportunities and the doors that opens. Many have moved to university towns and absorbed the leftish outlook that university brings. Having done better from the current system they’re more economically liberal (though claim to detest Thatcher) and believe their improved wealth and status is solely down to their own skill and graft rather than being heavily influenced by the hands they were dealt at birth. They’ve embraced identity politics as it allows them to ignore their privileges. 
 

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21 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Is the division by class or wealth or would you say that they are the same?

Its still a division that should not exist. I added celebrity to the list in an earlier post. Its all the same. People of privilege assuming they are superior.

Can you imagine being told you have to bow if meeting Prince Andrew?

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31 minutes ago, Herman said:

It's not really a left or right thing. If someone has really strong views they are going to have to accept that there is going to be push back on said opinions. I'm not advocating people losing their livlihood for their belief just acknowledgement that someone somewhere will tell them to STFU or take the mick out of them.

Although saying that, proper hate preaching, think Hopkins, Choudary, Robinson, I have no problem with them losing their jobs. Freedom of speech has responsibilities attached.

I can’t think of too many who have lost jobs or faced sustained attacks to have employment opportunities (publishers) removed or speaking gigs cancelled for expressing the opinions of those on the new left though, so I’d argue it is largely a left/right issue.

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4 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Can you imagine being told you have to bow if meeting Prince Andrew?

I'd  bow......and arrow the cont!

 

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5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Its still a division that should not exist. I added celebrity to the list in an earlier post. Its all the same. People of privilege assuming they are superior.

Can you imagine being told you have to bow if meeting Prince Andrew?

Divisions will always exist, that wasn’t the point I was making. Unless you’re going to force equality of outcome it will always be a fact of life. I just think those at the bottom should have the opportunity of a comfortable life, family home, kids, bit spare for a holiday etc. 

It was the attitudes of those in the various groups I was alluding too. The middle class are currently obsessed with privilege for example but have a massive blind spot of their own

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6 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I can’t think of too many who have lost jobs or faced sustained attacks to have employment opportunities (publishers) removed or speaking gigs cancelled for expressing the opinions of those on the new left though, so I’d argue it is largely a left/right issue.

Who has been "cancelled"? The ones making the most noise seem to be regularly in print or TV. 

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