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Rupp over dowell...

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Just now, Rich T The Biscuit said:

I put that earlier, he got injured in September.

The injury was the problem not the lack of a pre season.

Yeah I just find it funny how narratives catch on- Gordon is the second person in just this thread to say he missed pre season which just isn't true.

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I am not sure whether Rupp is the answer for no 10 position. He put in a very good workmanlike performance yesterday, but quite often was caught in possession whilst looking to make a pass. I have not seen enough of Dowell to decide where his best position is. Stiepermann is coming back from injury and has played in the no 10 position, but he is another who is caught in possession too often. Personally, I think Cantwell would be a good candidate if he stays at the club.

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A more intriguing question is that of who takes set pieces.  Without Vrancic in the No.10, Buendia's contribution in set pieces (corners and in front of the penalty area, his wide free kicks are better) are disappointing to put it mildly (I'd say **** but it won't make it through the censor).  W / should a no.10 pick hinge on set piece quality.  On another thread someone (half) jokingly said its a contractual thing that Emi takes them, but really he shouldn't.  But could Dowell?

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Dowell has shown me nothing so far and cannot complain others are getting picked ahead of him.  He may come good in the end but as things stand it’s not looking good.

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

Yeah I just find it funny how narratives catch on- Gordon is the second person in just this thread to say he missed pre season which just isn't true.

Yep and all these saying that he won't come good.

Up until the injury he looked really tidy and looked every bit a Norwich player.

So many are judging him on 10 mins here and there and anyone who has played the game knows that 10 mins here and there is really not enough to show to much.

Personally I trust Farke, he sees enough of Dowell to put him on the bench and more importantly on the pitch.

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Fair enough, hands up.....I went with something I read as truth and really should have known better. Let’s officially eliminate pre season from the enquiry!

Fact remains it’s too early to write him off.

Edited by Gordon Bennett

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3 hours ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Yep and all these saying that he won't come good.

Up until the injury he looked really tidy and looked every bit a Norwich player.

So many are judging him on 10 mins here and there and anyone who has played the game knows that 10 mins here and there is really not enough to show to much.

Personally I trust Farke, he sees enough of Dowell to put him on the bench and more importantly on the pitch.

I think we're also judging on the fact Farke is choosing not to give him more minutes.

I was more sympathetic to the injury narrative until recently- but as mentioned before, injury and suspension have affected our attacking midfield trio of late and every time Farke has chosen to use someone else. 

He can of course come good but I don't think it's unfair to be skeptical of that at the moment.

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19 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think we're also judging on the fact Farke is choosing not to give him more minutes.

I was more sympathetic to the injury narrative until recently- but as mentioned before, injury and suspension have affected our attacking midfield trio of late and every time Farke has chosen to use someone else. 

He can of course come good but I don't think it's unfair to be skeptical of that at the moment.

Not sure I understand as recently the only changes to the starting 11 were when Buendia was suspended and Cantwell was injured.

On both occasions they were replaced with wide players is Placheta and Hernandez.

Other than that Vrancic has been in the side and only didn't play on Saturday as Farke brought Rupp in to replace Vrancic to change the system to combat Luton

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14 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Not sure I understand as recently the only changes to the starting 11 were when Buendia was suspended and Cantwell was injured.

On both occasions they were replaced with wide players is Placheta and Hernandez.

Other than that Vrancic has been in the side and only didn't play on Saturday as Farke brought Rupp in to replace Vrancic to change the system to combat Luton

All changes to positions Dowell plays. Cantwell and Buendia aren't traditional wingers and I'd suggest Dowell is a much more like for like replacement for either of them than Placheta or Hernandez.

My general view is of he was doing enough to impress Farke in training he'd have used him in one of these situations. 

 

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50 minutes ago, king canary said:

All changes to positions Dowell plays. Cantwell and Buendia aren't traditional wingers and I'd suggest Dowell is a much more like for like replacement for either of them than Placheta or Hernandez.

My general view is of he was doing enough to impress Farke in training he'd have used him in one of these situations. 

 

Think we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'd be really worried as a fan is Dowell came in to replace Cantwell or Buendia as he's not really the same type, he's far more suited to replacing Vrancic and having both Dowell and Vrancic in the side would change the dynamic of how we play.

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I think he (and Sinani) were bought to replace Buendia and Cantwell - neither left so Sinani went on loan, and Dowell became the third choice.  I also believe Farke would actually like to play one pacy player and one tricky intelligent player.  So Buendia or Cantwell with Hernandez or Placheta, and as a result Dowell is well down the pecking order.

BTW - I thought Rupp did really well, he did lose the ball occasionally, but worked hard and won the ball in very dangerous positions.

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Dowell will be a 10. I saw glimpses of quality in our last game and I think he'll come good in time. Whether he'll be good enough if we go up is the question for me.

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You never know, Dowell may be more suited to the Prem than the Champs.  It's happened before that a player who looks out of place in the hurly burly of the Championship, suddenly looks a world beater in the Prem.  You never know ...

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Dowell has never quite delivered to the required standard during his cameos or cup games. He obviously had a big setback with getting injured but Farke does keep giving him a few minutes to try to make an impression. I don't think he's anywhere near the starting 11 just yet.

Rupp was showing real promise before his own injury whereas Dowell was only really involved in the early games where we underperformed. It's fair enough that he's now lower down the pecking order simply because, without him, the team are slaughtering the league.

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8 hours ago, Fuzzar said:

Dowell will be a 10. I saw glimpses of quality in our last game and I think he'll come good in time. Whether he'll be good enough if we go up is the question for me.

Played OK in his 10 minute cameo - on after we're 3-0 up with Luton totally demoralized and on the ropes. A bit different if we actually had to win a game - his selection was fatal against Watford and near-fatal against Millwall.

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I'd be pretty embarrassed if I were Dowell. You've got players ahead of you, who dont normally play in that position. He simply has to work a little harder for the team. Has looked pretty lethargic IMO in his cameo appearances. Hopefully can kick on soon.

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8 minutes ago, jaberry2 said:

I'd be pretty embarrassed if I were Dowell. You've got players ahead of you, who dont normally play in that position. He simply has to work a little harder for the team. Has looked pretty lethargic IMO in his cameo appearances. Hopefully can kick on soon.

Well, it depends how you look at it - Rupp is incredibly versatile, yes he's no natural #10 but quite clearly he can put a shift in there. Vrancic was a catalyst to our run in to promotion 2 seasons ago. Dowell is still young, to be behind other players during a promotion run is probably not great for him, but I'm sure he's working hard to get his chance

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1 hour ago, AJ said:

Well, it depends how you look at it - Rupp is incredibly versatile, yes he's no natural #10 but quite clearly he can put a shift in there. Vrancic was a catalyst to our run in to promotion 2 seasons ago. Dowell is still young, to be behind other players during a promotion run is probably not great for him, but I'm sure he's working hard to get his chance

I think Dowell looked class pre injury and I do feel for him in respect of the pecking order. But if I were playing third fiddle to two other players, who were essentially 'doing a job' on in my best position I would be putting myself about more than he has. Dont get this confused with writing him off. There is a very good player in Dowell. I just think he needs to himself about more when he has the opportunity.

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22 minutes ago, jaberry2 said:

I think Dowell looked class pre injury and I do feel for him in respect of the pecking order. But if I were playing third fiddle to two other players, who were essentially 'doing a job' on in my best position I would be putting myself about more than he has. Dont get this confused with writing him off. There is a very good player in Dowell. I just think he needs to himself about more when he has the opportunity.

Yes fair point, I do wonder what will happen to him going into next season if he doesn't break into the first team between now and the end of the season. With Stiepi coming back as well, wonder if we'll be looking to invest there again in the summer

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1 hour ago, AJ said:

Yes fair point, I do wonder what will happen to him going into next season if he doesn't break into the first team between now and the end of the season. With Stiepi coming back as well, wonder if we'll be looking to invest there again in the summer

IMO this season we have got by with players like Vrancic etc playing in this position. This is a position in my view which we need another quality addition if we do go up. If we manage to get hold of a decent player to fill the 10 position, and keep Buendia / Cantwell / Pukki, it should look ok for us offensively.

I think Dowell will be judged in the summer with another pre season under him. Farke may decide he is good enough. He looked good pre injury.

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I would be very surprised if we are not looking to buy (and possibly for a shedload of money) or get on loan a starting number 10 for next season, assuming we get promoted.

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39 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I would be very surprised if we are not looking to buy (and possibly for a shedload of money) or get on loan a starting number 10 for next season, assuming we get promoted.

This is certainly correct. I also think that the loan option is perhaps most sensible in the 10 role.

We need a very flexible, high-class player who can drop, work, score, assist, head and - certainly- defend.

I very much doubt we have the resources to buy that ready-made, nor do I believe we have it in the building. Except - very arguably - for Buendia.

Personally - very much in the Italian tradition - I already feel that at the top level Pukki + Buendia + Cantwell is already a massively attacking, open three. I simply do not think we can add further attacking (only) strategically to that. Honestly I think it is already verging on too much as we will predominantly be defending (and losing a lot of games). 

I was always told to watch Litmanen (YouTube him)...and his positional nous was extraordinary. This would be the dream idea, though we are simply not good enough at the top level to be so aggressive tactically.

This brings it back to why Rupp was selected at 10 on Saturday. For a while now we have been strategically - and in coaching terms - preparing for the top level. 

Unfortunately (well done Farke-Webber for accepting it this time) Rupp is much more the kind of structural player we will need (not want note) in that position. Much more 4321 than 4231...or really 451 with clever fluid, flooding counters.

You cannot pretend you are better when you are not. It doesn’t work. We have stopped pretending. Bravo. 

Parma 

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Just now, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

This is certainly correct. I also think that the loan option is perhaps most sensible in the 10 role.

We need a very flexible, high-class player who can drop, work, score, assist, head and - certainly- defend.

I very much doubt we have the resources to buy that ready-made, nor do I believe we have it in the building. Except - very arguably - for Buendia.

Personally - very much in the Italian tradition - I already feel that at the top level Pukki + Buendia + Cantwell is already a massively attacking, open three. I simply do not think we can add further attacking (only) strategically to that. Honestly I think it is already verging on too much as we will predominantly be defending (and losing a lot of games). 

I was always told to watch Litmanen (YouTube him)...and his positional nous was extraordinary. This would be the dream idea, though we are simply not good enough at the top level to be so aggressive tactically.

This brings it back to why Rupp was selected at 10 on Saturday. For a while now we have been strategically - and in coaching terms - preparing for the top level. 

Unfortunately (well done Farke-Webber for accepting it this time) Rupp is much more the kind of structural player we will need (not want note) in that position. Much more 4321 than 4231...or really 451 with clever fluid, flooding counters.

You cannot pretend you are better when you are not. It doesn’t work. We have stopped pretending. Bravo. 

Parma 

Agreed. It is a fluid 451. Do you think that steiperman can also play that structural role? We have been working hard on defending much further up the pitch this season.

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11 minutes ago, The Bristol Nest said:

Agreed. It is a fluid 451. Do you think that steiperman can also play that structural role? We have been working hard on defending much further up the pitch this season.

I don't think we'll see much more of Stiepi.

I think we'll have a bit of a clear out in the summer if we go up and of the 3 number 10's we currently have it will only be Dowell left with a new one coming in.

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42 minutes ago, The Bristol Nest said:

Agreed. It is a fluid 451. Do you think that steiperman can also play that structural role? We have been working hard on defending much further up the pitch this season.

Stiepermann is agreeably awkward. And I mean that as a compliment. He isn’t silky, though he can do clever, unexpected things. He is structurally decent, responsible, defensively useful (at times).

Though ultimately not good enough at any of those things for the top level. Capable of losing the ball in the wrong areas too. We cannot afford any of that next season. 

Hence my comment about Cantwell-Pukki-Buendia. There’s already more than enough risk of that in that axis. Though Cantwell plays more lower risk passes and slows the game down at good times. Pukki is very diligent and chases hard when a structural mistake or overload occurs (important). Buendia is a terrier, though will have to be more selective and play more percentages (whether he likes it or not). At the higher level he must take his risks higher up the pitch. He plays like a 10, though often in 8 or 6 areas. 

No space for any more ‘wild card’ elements anywhere in the team next year beyond that. In Italy* Todd or Emi would play 10 (and the other one would watch from the bench).

Parma 

*If you are not superior, the odds are not in your favour to begin with. Then you must minimise the differential. It could be that you think you’ll get enough points overall (to survive) via Cantwell-Pukki-Buendia   (Who are not wildly unbalancing or risky)...it would simply not improve your odds to go (say) Hernandez-Cantwell-Pukki-Buendia...even though ‘Onel can sometimes really trouble teams with his direct running’. That’s pub tactics and relegation. 

Parma 

Edited by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

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Again agreed, too many errors and Buendia has to stop the risky passes in the 8 zone but will hopefully learn to make the moves higher up the pitch around the opposition D.

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