Tonight- The biggest match of the season?

[Nuff Said 5,119]

29 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I certainly see your point there but still side with Farke's view that the best approach is to see all games as having equal importance. Perhaps there's a genuinely deep and interesting philosophical question underlying this debate regarding the degree in which it is possible to abstract the importance of an individual game from the totality of games played over the entire season. Let's assume for the sake of argument that we all agree that 95 points guarantees automatic promotion. Would it matter in the slightest who we beat to achieve those 95 points? Would any of those points represent "bigger" points than the others? At the same time I recognise your point that a victory for City tonight would increase the gap between us and Brentford. So perhaps the "correct" answer to this question is that it is both "the biggest" and "not the biggest" game of the season depending upon the perspective from which one views it. Now if that isn't a proof of the Postmodern world view I don't know what is.

So for someone who doesn't know the result, but the game is over, we have lost, drawn and won it simultaneously? Schrodinger's match,  but with three possible results, not two?

 

And surely the "six pointers", i.e. matches against rivals close to us in the table are "bigger"?

[Nuff Said 5,119]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

It's the biggest in terms of being able to put down a marker to the rest of the division and essentially say "right, this is ours, if you want it, come to us and try and take it!"

At the same time, if the worst happens and we do lose, let's keep a sense of perspective - it's still only three points and nothing is completely done and dusted at this point.

Hmm, good luck with that on here.

[Ian 1,129]

3 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Hmm, good luck with that on here.

If we do lose, I am really hoping Farke makes substitutions before the 85th minute or I predict total carnage.

[Thomas Frank 4]

58 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

I will add ... 'and also their ego.' Above all others this team and its fans seem to rate themselves so highly.

They need their balloon spiking in order to bring them back down to earth. The same way that Bournemouth went.

 

I don't think that's fair. We're entitled to think highly of ourselves because we do play good football and it's gotten us to challenge for promotion without balloon payments, in a small stadium, with less revenue, etc.  Or would you prefer it if opposition football fans just said "yeah, we're not that good, nothing to be proud of, our football is crap, etc"?  It doesn't work like that.

The vast majority of Brentford fans are extremely clued up, know that either team can win tonight, but remain hopeful.

[TheGunnShow 5,937]

28 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Hmm, good luck with that on here.

I must be more of an optimist at heart than I realised.

[jaberry2 550]

Dont particularly agree being game of the year. No doubt two of the best teams in the league playing one another, but Farke will be downplaying the game as much as possible Be happy with a good performance and a point, to keep the momentum going. Would be great if we turned them over!

[Crabbycanary3 994]

23 minutes ago, Thomas Frank said:

I don't think that's fair. We're entitled to think highly of ourselves because we do play good football and it's gotten us to challenge for promotion without balloon payments, in a small stadium, with less revenue, etc.  Or would you prefer it if opposition football fans just said "yeah, we're not that good, nothing to be proud of, our football is crap, etc"?  It doesn't work like that.

The vast majority of Brentford fans are extremely clued up, know that either team can win tonight, but remain hopeful.

I suspect that Broadstair's comments came from another section of your fans (see other threads etc) Every team has them (even ours!) 

You have a good side there and you remind me of us 2 seasons ago. You score a lot and you let a lot in. Could be a football feast tonight

[king canary 7,603]

2 minutes ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

I suspect that Broadstair's comments came from another section of your fans (see other threads etc) Every team has them (even ours!) 

You have a good side there and you remind me of us 2 seasons ago. You score a lot and you let a lot in. Could be a football feast tonight

I don't actually think I've ever come across a particularly arrogant Brentford fan- the main issue seems to be media hype more than anything. 

In all honesty I think Norwich and Brentford should generally see each other as admirable- good football played without huge amounts of cash being spent or losses being ran up which is especially impressive as they've not had Premier League money at any point. Personally I'd be delighted for them to finish second and go up with us.

[Hansterbubble 55]

46 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Tonight's game is more about the psychology than the points. This is actually our most difficult remaining fixture against the second best team in the league. If we're going to lose to anyone then this is the most likely one. So a defeat would neither be entirely unexpected or a significant blow.

The fact remains that, in all but one of the last 30 or so Championship seasons, 90 points is enough for promotion and that means we need just 20 more points which is 6 wins and 2 draws.

I would argue that it's the 7 games against bottom-half opponents that follow which are where we would expect to pick up the bulk of our points. 5 wins would leave us requiring 5 points from our final 5 fixtures.

Tonight's game is about the spotlight and the pundits. It's not really a big deal for us. We've already lost to Bournemouth, Watford and Swansea. The way we've quietly and efficiently gone about winning our less glamorous fixtures means we don't actually have to beat these sides.

There's no pressure on us. It's a free hit tonight.

I very much agree with this. It’s about about making sure we get the points from our remaining fixtures rather than focussing on one game. If we pick up 3 tonight, then that is excellent news as it’s 3 more to the tally. If we don’t we have plenty of fixtures remaining to do that.

I was worried that this game would overshadow the Wycombe fixture on Sunday, and perhaps lead to a bad result in that game. But the approach was very professional, very focussed and got the result we needed. We showed resilience after the defeat at Swansea, so if things don’t go to plan tonight that will just be a bump in the road, nothing more, and I believe that we will see that professionalism and focus allow us to go on and get the points we need from our remaining games.

So, it does feel a bit like the pressure is on Brentford rather than us and I’m very much hoping for a good performance and another 3 points.

 

 

[sgncfc 1,227]

36 minutes ago, Thomas Frank said:

I don't think that's fair. We're entitled to think highly of ourselves because we do play good football and it's gotten us to challenge for promotion without balloon payments, in a small stadium, with less revenue, etc.  Or would you prefer it if opposition football fans just said "yeah, we're not that good, nothing to be proud of, our football is crap, etc"?  It doesn't work like that.

The vast majority of Brentford fans are extremely clued up, know that either team can win tonight, but remain hopeful.

You should of course be rightly proud of your team and the way you play. You started the moneyball model we are copying so of course it's to be admired by us - but please, less about the "without balloon payments" when you have consistently sold players each year for tens of millions and have an owner who has invested well over £100m. The "small stadium" is also your own choice to reflect the size of your supporter pool - you could have made it bigger. Next year you'll wish you had when the Premier League hangers on turn up.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't actually think I've ever come across a particularly arrogant Brentford fan- the main issue seems to be media hype more than anything. 

In all honesty I think Norwich and Brentford should generally see each other as admirable- good football played without huge amounts of cash being spent or losses being ran up which is especially impressive as they've not had Premier League money at any point. Personally I'd be delighted for them to finish second and go up with us.

I think, largely, that is the case, but there has been a couple of comments, but some of our fans have come out with similar bravado. It is just what football fans (can) do.

If I could chose two teams to go up, then I agree that Brentford (and us!) would be my choice. I like how they are, as a Club, and also how they play the game. If that were the case, we know where our place is as the media would put Brentford on a pedestal as their darlings. We would be an irritant I feel!

The key to Premier League money is what they will do with it, should they go up. As it stands, Brentford have got a good side together and are on the cusp of promotion for the first time. I suspect that there have been a few teams like that dotted throughout history, and is certainly commendable. Their next step is getting over the line, and then, immediately stay there and improve, not just sink back into the Championship and never see the bright lights again. That is difficult, but not impossible

[sonyc 5,510]

I'm looking forward to the game because I like the way Brentford play. Have done so for the last few years. They are not like those gritty non-football teams like Birmingham were when we played them at home or other similar 'hoof ball' teams.

It reminds me a bit of our trip to Leeds in 2018/19 as an important 'top two' match in the latter stages of a season. Maybe though, in this case, it's Brentford wanting to put a marker on us away from home because we hold the 'champions elect' position at present. Their away form is excellent in the main. They won't be too worried about coming to Carrow Road.

So, it's a fascinating match and will tell us a bit more about how we can handle the pressure of being top and dealing with the top scorers. 

What has been so amazing is thinking back once again at how we rode out being in the top position with THAT injury list a few short months ago, the likes of which we've probably never seen.

  We know we are resilient and at least now we face a Brentford team with a fully competitive squad. No idea what will happen but it will be a great game. One, ideally the fans would have loved to have cheered on ..... in what  surely would have been the best atmosphere of the season.

Bring it on.

[Tumbleweed 106]

Any game when you have the chance to get 3 points and at the same time deny 3 to your opponent has got to be more important.  This is also a big game for us, sure we don't need the points to retain first place tonight, but we don't want to lose momentum at this point and see our rivals catch up. We are on a decent run, and victory would put an auto place within touching distance. I expect them to start fast, press hard and put us under pressure right from the off.  I would not be surprised for them to get the first goal but for us to finish stronger. I predict 1-1 which will be Ok for us. TBH I think away at the league leaders they won't be too upset with that either.

[Tumbleweed 106]

I meant deny your main rival really, as any team is an opponent! But then I think you hopefully know what I meant......I'll stop "multi tasking", sorry,  "working from home".

[Thomas Frank 4]

2 hours ago, sgncfc said:

You should of course be rightly proud of your team and the way you play. You started the moneyball model we are copying so of course it's to be admired by us - but please, less about the "without balloon payments" when you have consistently sold players each year for tens of millions and have an owner who has invested well over £100m. The "small stadium" is also your own choice to reflect the size of your supporter pool - you could have made it bigger. Next year you'll wish you had when the Premier League hangers on turn up.

Genuine discussion point here.....without balloon payments:  How does the money coming into a club who has been relegated from the Premier League not give an advantage to them?  £70 million over 3 seasons (I stand to be corrected) is a huge amount of money for being relegated.

Factually, the owner has invested £100 million (since 2013), mainly on the stadium and off-field activities.  I can't accurately tell you the precise apportionment, but at Griffin Park, we were losing money every week and the investment had to cover losses before player sales started to cover such losses, to the point we are now profitable.  

In respect of our ground, as Griffin Park was not financially viable, the ONLY choice available to us so that we could stay in the borough, was the brown-field site that Lionel Road was built on.  It wasn't thought possible to build a stadium there due to the rail tracks, but a fan (architect) found a design that meant that we stood a chance of building the new stadium within the triangular space.  Had we ever been successful in getting a site nearer to Heathrow, we'd have looked to build a 25,000 capacity stadium, but that was never on the cards.  Therefore, 17,500 was not a choice, but it was the only way to get Brentford to move into a stadium that generated more income than Griffin Park, stay in the borough, and prevent our owner from having to start to recoup his investment.

These points, plus the fact that we have been a perenially poor-performing club languishing around the bottom two divisions since the 1940's, means that we genuinely are a small club.  We don't doubt that.  Even with our business model generating profit due to player sales, we will never be able to compete on equal terms than clubs who are bigger than ourselves.  The new stadium has closed the gap a little, and our ability to follow a strategy that allows us to buy cheap and sell high by being patient, means that we've closed the gap more.  But make no bones about it, we are not on equal terms to most clubs in this division.

[Midlands Yellow 3,974]

Of course it’s the biggest game so far, well at least on here it is. Lots of folk infatuated with the mighty Brentford on the Pinkun. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,748]

I wonder if this is the earliest k/o for a home midweek game at carrow rd?....thank christ I'm working from home today otherwise I'd miss most of the first half getting home from work??!

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

7 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

I wonder if this is the earliest k/o for a home midweek game at carrow rd?....thank christ I'm working from home today otherwise I'd miss most of the first half getting home from work??!

I remember us playing Millwall in 1974 at home in the League Cup with an early midweek kickoff because the Miners Strike meant there were power cuts.

[......and Smith must score. 1,341]

4 hours ago, Thomas Frank said:

I don't think that's fair. We're entitled to think highly of ourselves because we do play good football and it's gotten us to challenge for promotion without balloon payments, in a small stadium, with less revenue, etc.  Or would you prefer it if opposition football fans just said "yeah, we're not that good, nothing to be proud of, our football is crap, etc"?  It doesn't work like that.

The vast majority of Brentford fans are extremely clued up, know that either team can win tonight, but remain hopeful.

You do have a good side. You'll certainly be looking to win tonight. As you know from experience the Play-Offs is not a place you want to be.

We're in a nice position of having that points cushion but both our teams will want to put a bit more daylight against the chasing pack.

[......and Smith must score. 1,341]

1 hour ago, Thomas Frank said:

Genuine discussion point here.....without balloon payments:  How does the money coming into a club who has been relegated from the Premier League not give an advantage to them?  £70 million over 3 seasons (I stand to be corrected) is a huge amount of money for being relegated.

 

Yes, it's only for two seasons if you go down in your first season

[sgncfc 1,227]

3 hours ago, Thomas Frank said:

Genuine discussion point here.....without balloon payments:  How does the money coming into a club who has been relegated from the Premier League not give an advantage to them?  £70 million over 3 seasons (I stand to be corrected) is a huge amount of money for being relegated.

Factually, the owner has invested £100 million (since 2013), mainly on the stadium and off-field activities.  I can't accurately tell you the precise apportionment, but at Griffin Park, we were losing money every week and the investment had to cover losses before player sales started to cover such losses, to the point we are now profitable.  

In respect of our ground, as Griffin Park was not financially viable, the ONLY choice available to us so that we could stay in the borough, was the brown-field site that Lionel Road was built on.  It wasn't thought possible to build a stadium there due to the rail tracks, but a fan (architect) found a design that meant that we stood a chance of building the new stadium within the triangular space.  Had we ever been successful in getting a site nearer to Heathrow, we'd have looked to build a 25,000 capacity stadium, but that was never on the cards.  Therefore, 17,500 was not a choice, but it was the only way to get Brentford to move into a stadium that generated more income than Griffin Park, stay in the borough, and prevent our owner from having to start to recoup his investment.

These points, plus the fact that we have been a perenially poor-performing club languishing around the bottom two divisions since the 1940's, means that we genuinely are a small club.  We don't doubt that.  Even with our business model generating profit due to player sales, we will never be able to compete on equal terms than clubs who are bigger than ourselves.  The new stadium has closed the gap a little, and our ability to follow a strategy that allows us to buy cheap and sell high by being patient, means that we've closed the gap more.  But make no bones about it, we are not on equal terms to most clubs in this division.

All good positive points made with a little bias because it doesn't change the fact that without the £100m you wouldn't be where you are, or have a new ground. Without the parachute payments neither would we.

And having just watched the game, two things - you now know why we got rid of Canos, and on no planet anywhere in any universe is Ivan Toney going to attract £30m bids on that performance. Wycombe gave us more problems.

[chicken 2,624]

10 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I can see why you'd think that, but there's no clearer way - IMO - of sending it than whacking your probable closest rival.

I mean, sure, but at this point we would be almost whacking a dead horse, even after the fact. The statement is just a little clearer. But arguably, Swansea could actually be our closest rival, they have the games in hand to be, just the table doesn't reflect it at this moment.

As I said before, we could win and it not really change anything in terms of auto's and it hasn't. We maintained the gap to 3rd and pushed 2nd closer to the chasing pack in doing so.

Of all the teams in the league we could be forgiven for losing to it would be the closest rivals, the most difficult team at this moment. We didn't so it's all good. The 10pt gap is maintained and now there is only 12 games left to be caught. The next 7 could really define the importance of the last five.

Edited March 3, 2021 by chicken

[TheGunnShow 5,937]

22 minutes ago, chicken said:

I mean, sure, but at this point we would be almost whacking a dead horse, even after the fact. The statement is just a little clearer. But arguably, Swansea could actually be our closest rival, they have the games in hand to be, just the table doesn't reflect it at this moment.

As I said before, we could win and it not really change anything in terms of auto's and it hasn't. We maintained the gap to 3rd and pushed 2nd closer to the chasing pack in doing so.

Of all the teams in the league we could be forgiven for losing to it would be the closest rivals, the most difficult team at this moment. We didn't so it's all good. The 10pt gap is maintained and now there is only 12 games left to be caught. The next 7 could really define the importance of the last five.

We maintained the gap to 3rd and - IMO the bit that often gets missed a bit - all teams have used up another game. As you said at the end, there are now only 12 games to be caught. Swansea could well be the closest, very true. At the same time, they're also going to have more fixture congestion so it will be harder for them.

[chicken 2,624]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Swansea could well be the closest, very true. At the same time, they're also going to have more fixture congestion so it will be harder for them.

Nah, I looked into that a bit. They won't be anymore congested than we have been earlier in the season. It'll just mean they will have to play through it at a more critical time. But, like for us, it could actually help them keep rolling on the momentum. We did it with a threadbare squad with "cheerleaders" on the bench and 3rd choice players in outfield positions. We played with Stiepermann as the striker at one point didn't we? 

[TheGunnShow 5,937]

9 hours ago, chicken said:

Nah, I looked into that a bit. They won't be anymore congested than we have been earlier in the season. It'll just mean they will have to play through it at a more critical time. But, like for us, it could actually help them keep rolling on the momentum. We did it with a threadbare squad with "cheerleaders" on the bench and 3rd choice players in outfield positions. We played with Stiepermann as the striker at one point didn't we? 

Aye, but at the end of a tiring season as opposed to at the beginning. We did have Stiepermann up top as well, a clearly not 100% fit Stiepi.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,429]

Most important game of the season is now Luton at home .