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EleanorGrace

Promotion hopes after Swansea - PL quality

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I am not panicking and we have some very winnable games next, however it is clear that we struggle against the press and also teams of quality. If you take our first team from yesterday and add Buendia and include the subs, how many are really PL Quality? Here are my thoughts:-

Krul (Y), Aarons (Y), Hanley (C) (N), Gibson (M), Sorensen (M), Skipp (Y) (Vrancic 57' (N)), Rupp (N) (Idah 57' (M)), Cantwell (M), McLean (N), Placheta (N) (Hernandez 57' (N), Pukki (N)

Y is a PL Quality Player, M is maybe and N is a No. https://9apps.ooo/

2 Ys and one Y loan (Skipp) as he wont be with us if we go up. Buendia is a Y too. So thats 4 PL level players. 3 Maybes and one Maybe with an option to buy (Gibson).

Placheta isnt even Chump standard IMO. The new LB likewise at present. 3 Maybes and one loan Maybe. Maybe harsh on Mclean but he didnt step up last time.

We have a long way to go to gain automatic promotion and we certainly are not a PL side in waiting.

Edited by EleanorGrace

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8 minutes ago, EleanorGrace said:

I am not panicking and we have some very winnable games next, however it is clear that we struggle against the press and also teams of quality. If you take our first team from yesterday and add Buendia and include the subs, how many are really PL Quality? Here are my thoughts:-

Krul (Y), Aarons (Y), Hanley (C) (N), Gibson (M), Sorensen (M), Skipp (Y) (Vrancic 57' (N)), Rupp (N) (Idah 57' (M)), Cantwell (M), McLean (N), Placheta (N) (Hernandez 57' (N), Pukki (N)

Y is a PL Quality Player, M is maybe and N is a No.

2 Ys and one Y loan (Skipp) as he wont be with us if we go up. Buendia is a Y too. So thats 4 PL level players. 3 Maybes and one Maybe with an option to buy (Gibson).

Placheta isnt even Chump standard IMO. The new LB likewise at present. 3 Maybes and one loan Maybe. Maybe harsh on Mclean but he didnt step up last time.

We have a long way to go to gain automatic promotion and we certainly are not a PL side in waiting.

Cantwell is prem quality.

McLean, Pukki, Hernandez can all make positive contributions in the prem.

Would I be looking to upgrade? Yes absolutely, but they can make an impact.

A new partner for Gibson, Skipp or Skipp-like player, someone to challenge Pukki (Idah Championship loan), replace Max or Emi if they go would be my aims.

Edited by Decemberists

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Nice negative post, why not just enjoy this season and worry about the next one after we get promoted. 

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5 minutes ago, EleanorGrace said:

I am not panicking and we have some very winnable games next, however it is clear that we struggle against the press and also teams of quality. If you take our first team from yesterday and add Buendia and include the subs, how many are really PL Quality? Here are my thoughts:-

Krul (Y), Aarons (Y), Hanley (C) (N), Gibson (M), Sorensen (M), Skipp (Y) (Vrancic 57' (N)), Rupp (N) (Idah 57' (M)), Cantwell (M), McLean (N), Placheta (N) (Hernandez 57' (N), Pukki (N)

Y is a PL Quality Player, M is maybe and N is a No.

2 Ys and one Y loan (Skipp) as he wont be with us if we go up. Buendia is a Y too. So thats 4 PL level players. 3 Maybes and one Maybe with an option to buy (Gibson).

Placheta isnt even Chump standard IMO. The new LB likewise at present. 3 Maybes and one loan Maybe. Maybe harsh on Mclean but he didnt step up last time.

We have a long way to go to gain automatic promotion and we certainly are not a PL side in waiting.

I disagree. Krul, Aarons, Skipp, Buendia, are PL class and would walk into any team below the top 4.

Rupp was very good before his injury in his correct position so I’d have him down as a maybe. Sorensen looks class and an intelligent player but we’re yet to see him in his correct position so I’d call him a maybe.

Hernandez did a good job in the PL but is always injured.

Hanley and Gibson may succeed in the PL as they work together as a team so they are a maybe for me.

Giannoulis is a maybe as he’s only just joined and from what I have seen he’s improving each game and looking promising. 
 

Cantwell, maybe. He flatters to deceive for me. Doesn’t create or score enough and can be a defensive liability at times trying to play in the wrong areas of the pitch. However, I believe Todd will learn and improve and become more consistent. So he’s a maybe. 
 

Stiepermann, he didn’t look good enough last time in the PL and I think this affected Pukki as Marco’s link up play is under rated in my view.

Mario - Definate no. Or an impact sub at best.

Idah - No not for now. Maybe in the future. He needs a season at MK Dons to find his feet.

Platcheta - Maybe. He needs more end product to match his lightening pace.

Dowell - Maybe if he has a run in the team. However what I have seen so far he’s not performed to Championship level let alone PL level.

Martin - Maybe. He’s a good prospect and probably needs a loan spell at Championship level to build his confidence. 

Barden - Needs to go on loan in Div 1 or somewhere to gain experience.

Zimbo - No - Too slow. Ideal back up.

Kenny - No - Too slow, too weak, not creative and doesn’t score. 

Hugill - No - Ideal for getting out of the Championship as backup to Pukki but he struggles to trap a bag of cement.

Mumba - Maybe - I haven’t seen enough of him. It maybe that he needs a loan in the Championship to continue his development.

 

 

 

 

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Cantwells already proven himself at prem level.

Our new left back has proven himself at levels above the championship to say he's not even championship standard gives a good indication as to your football knowledge.

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Placheta's not Chump quality?

What?

The lad's come over from a far weaker league, has shown some good touches and an ability to get into position to get shots off, but lacked end product so far. Certainly not for the lack of trying. He's not the first young attacking player who's made a big move to another country who needs a bit of time to settle.

He's a victim of overblown expectations at the start when everyone saw he was bloody rapid. The lad's clearly got a great attitude and is willing to learn. If anything, he's probably trying too hard and it's affecting his decision-making. With a few technical refinements, there's DEFINITELY a good player in there.

In fact, I could see him doing a Cantwell very easily, in that he looked hit-and-miss in the Championship, we all thought a loan would do him good, then he stood up in the Premier and did well. Against teams that come forward, Placheta's going to be one seriously handy counter weapon.

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I actually all those listed players are PL quality, the question is if the team as a whole is. Meaning that many of them could be squad player with smaller role and some even in big roles. When you look for example Hanley and compare his performances with Godfrey's in our last PL visit. Hanley was likely much more solid back then. Godfrey is doing now really well on PL, so why would Hanley not do?

Then you think of Pukki. Scoring 10+ goals in a team that fails to provide service and being responsible for 40% of his team's goals. There are not many strikers in whole PL who is capable of that. 

McLean would do well in some lower half team that really fights for each inch, and could likely play regularly in PL in such a setup.

So, to repeat myself. I think that in right environment most of our players are PL quality, so the main question is that do we have enough top quality as a team for our style of play to be effective against PL teams. In that sense, I think we would need bit more strenghtening to for example AM position, not that we dont possess PL level players to fill it, but in our playstyle its integral piece in breaking into scoring position meaning that average PL level might not be enough.

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44 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Placheta's not Chump quality?

What?

The lad's come over from a far weaker league, has shown some good touches and an ability to get into position to get shots off, but lacked end product so far. Certainly not for the lack of trying. He's not the first young attacking player who's made a big move to another country who needs a bit of time to settle.

He's a victim of overblown expectations at the start when everyone saw he was bloody rapid. The lad's clearly got a great attitude and is willing to learn. If anything, he's probably trying too hard and it's affecting his decision-making. With a few technical refinements, there's DEFINITELY a good player in there.

In fact, I could see him doing a Cantwell very easily, in that he looked hit-and-miss in the Championship, we all thought a loan would do him good, then he stood up in the Premier and did well. Against teams that come forward, Placheta's going to be one seriously handy counter weapon.

Another nail hit squarely on the head by TheGunnShow. Bravo!

The only members of our current first team squad who I think aren't capable of making the step up in any capacity are Zimmermann, Stiepermann and Vrancic. Some of the younger lads might benefit from loan time (Martin, Idah, Mumba, Omobamidele), but I don't think the squad needs a radical overhaul.

The way we're playing this season is, by Farke's admission, set up more towards PL survival than our more attacking outlook last time. I would expect our summer outlay to be relatively modest due to Covid-19, but assuming we get in the region of £60-70m for Buendia and Aarons you'd expect the majority of it to be invested in the playing staff. You'd expect us to sign both Gibson and Giannoulis, and obviously we'd take Skippy for another year in a heartbeat but if we can't, I think we need two central midfielders; one a great all-rounder like Skipp, and then a big, strong b*gger like Tettey on steroids to give us some bite. Then another RB assuming that neither Byram nor Mumba are able to step up, and then whatever we can find that's closest to a Buendía replacement, and a striker to genuinely push Pukki for his place. Those last two in particular should be £10m+ signings unless we can find some exceptional value abroad (even tougher than usual with the new work permit regulations).

Edited by Feedthewolf
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There is a huge difference between Premier League quality and 'just about surviving' 

Skipp is good enough for the bottom 5 but no more. I consistently get slated for saying it but at Birmingham he attempted to pass the ball forwards 7 times and succeeded once. I wish he was good enough for the PL but he isn't. 

Cantwell is top 6 Premier League quality. 

Placheta is first choice for Poland at the moment and they rate him highly. But he just doesn't fit in to our style of play. 

Of the outfield players I would say Emi, Todd, Max and maybe Pukki are the only ones good enough. And three of them will probably leave. It looks like this summer is going to be hugely important for the next 5 years. Fingers crossed we get it right. 

The big surprise may turn out to be Sorenson. He looks really talented but it's hard to be sure when he's only played at left back. 

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F@#k me you’ll struggle on here with a reasoned argument when it comes to anything negative. But that string of doom and gloom  BS is never going to be meet well from a  newbie with little evidence shown that you know the players abilities at all. 
 

I’d  try again buddy with something a bit more rounded. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, The Walking Man said:

Did I miss us playing yesterday!? 

He must have been building up to his first post for a few days, and it all gushed out.

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2 hours ago, EleanorGrace said:

Placheta isnt even Chump standard IMO. The new LB likewise at present.

OP lost me on this. Placheta needs time to adjust, he's a young boy in a new land. Give him some time. He came in as a squad player and I'm sure there's a quality player in there. Also, the new LB has been excellent of late. Again, give them time to settle.

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1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

There is a huge difference between Premier League quality and 'just about surviving' 

Skipp is good enough for the bottom 5 but no more. I consistently get slated for saying it but at Birmingham he attempted to pass the ball forwards 7 times and succeeded once. I wish he was good enough for the PL but he isn't. 

Cantwell is top 6 Premier League quality. 

Placheta is first choice for Poland at the moment and they rate him highly. But he just doesn't fit in to our style of play. 

Of the outfield players I would say Emi, Todd, Max and maybe Pukki are the only ones good enough. And three of them will probably leave. It looks like this summer is going to be hugely important for the next 5 years. Fingers crossed we get it right. 

The big surprise may turn out to be Sorenson. He looks really talented but it's hard to be sure when he's only played at left back. 

Skipp... the same player who looks a strong possibility of being in the Championship team of the year? Future Spurs captain (said by Mourinho)? Best young defensive midfield player in the country? Dominated midfield as a 20 year old? That Oliver Skipp??

I think you may be a little misguided in your observations, sir.

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3 hours ago, EleanorGrace said:

I am not panicking and we have some very winnable games next, however it is clear that we struggle against the press and also teams of quality. If you take our first team from yesterday and add Buendia and include the subs, how many are really PL Quality? Here are my thoughts:-

Krul (Y), Aarons (Y), Hanley (C) (N), Gibson (M), Sorensen (M), Skipp (Y) (Vrancic 57' (N)), Rupp (N) (Idah 57' (M)), Cantwell (M), McLean (N), Placheta (N) (Hernandez 57' (N), Pukki (N)

Y is a PL Quality Player, M is maybe and N is a No.

2 Ys and one Y loan (Skipp) as he wont be with us if we go up. Buendia is a Y too. So thats 4 PL level players. 3 Maybes and one Maybe with an option to buy (Gibson).

Placheta isnt even Chump standard IMO. The new LB likewise at present. 3 Maybes and one loan Maybe. Maybe harsh on Mclean but he didnt step up last time.

We have a long way to go to gain automatic promotion and we certainly are not a PL side in waiting.

I only got a few lines in and stopped. Too much horsesh1t for me to wade through

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1 hour ago, Robornio said:

Skipp... the same player who looks a strong possibility of being in the Championship team of the year? Future Spurs captain (said by Mourinho)? Best young defensive midfield player in the country? Dominated midfield as a 20 year old? That Oliver Skipp??

I think you may be a little misguided in your observations, sir.

You're entitled to your opinion as I am mine. Mine is based on fact. That fact is that to be a Premier League footballer you need to consistently be able to pass the ball forwards to your team mates. I suggest you watch a little bit more carefully in future. 

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3 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

You're entitled to your opinion as I am mine. Mine is based on fact. That fact is that to be a Premier League footballer you need to consistently be able to pass the ball forwards to your team mates. I suggest you watch a little bit more carefully in future. 

The fact is that he passes the ball into the final third roughly 7 times per 90 mins played.

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18 minutes ago, repman said:

The fact is that he passes the ball into the final third roughly 7 times per 90 mins played.

To the opposition 

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10 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

To the opposition 

The problem is that's one example of one less than ideal facet of his game from one match. I'm not sure I accept it's a real consistent weakness, but it also rather ignores the fact that he is 20, even if his game is not perfectly rounded at the moment he is going to improve on an almost weekly basis. He clearly has positional sense, hence why he has been successful and he is not exactly weak in the technical aspects of the game, so why would you assume he can't improve his passing ability?

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I think the individuals in the squad are each capable of being part of a premiership squad, but very few of them are the complete package.  Personally I think our back four can compete, although an upgrade at centre half would help (plus a replacement for Aarons).  Then the midfield needs some serious work, 2 CDM’s, and a CAM with a replacement for Todd and / or Emi depending on what happens.  Finally upfront, we need a threat, Pukki works well with Emi, but he carries little threat in the air, but is effective when he gets the chance.  If Emi leaves we need to think carefully about how we will create chances.  I think we could see 

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to be fair, you can look at Leeds at how you can incorporate average looking players into a successful prem side with additions in the right areas.

Take Ayling for instance, looks decent enough for Leeds but stick him in the WBA side and he'd probably not do as well next to a team of not quite good enough players.

Krul, Aarons, Gibson, Todd, Emi, Skipp and Pukki are in the (Y) category for me.

McClean, Hernandez, Sorenson, Hanley, Giannoulis are in the "Ayling" category. I'd maybe add PP, Zimmermann, Hugill and Rupp to that but I'm sceptical. With the right players alongside, they would play a decent enough role. Look at the defence we had that finished 12th under Lambert for instance!

What we really need is a solid plan B since teams will be far better tactically up there. It seemed like if you set up a certain way against us last season, we were so easy to stop.

This season, teams that set up that way usually fall short thanks to out extra relative quality to get the job done even if they do tactically find us out. We can't really rely on that advantage at prem level so we need the ability to mix things up.

The spanner in the works of course, is potentially having to replace Skipp, Aarons and Buendia.

Next season could really be the one we get to see Stuart Webber unleashed if he has like £80m to play with (assuming Aarons and Emi went).

Edited by Tetteys Jig

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If you look at Sheffield United they had a team many of whom I wouldn't rate as PL quality, yet they stayed up with a flourish. Look at the bottom 6-8 and there are many players who are nothing special.

Our defence has improved immeasurably and we have a much better balance (although the Skipp issue is a big one). If we don't get the ridiculous injuries of last time, and make 3-4 shrewd signings we have a decent chance.

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11 hours ago, EleanorGrace said:

I am not panicking and we have some very winnable games next, however it is clear that we struggle against the press and also teams of quality. If you take our first team from yesterday and add Buendia and include the subs, how many are really PL Quality? Here are my thoughts:-

Krul (Y), Aarons (Y), Hanley (C) (N), Gibson (M), Sorensen (M), Skipp (Y) (Vrancic 57' (N)), Rupp (N) (Idah 57' (M)), Cantwell (M), McLean (N), Placheta (N) (Hernandez 57' (N), Pukki (N)

Y is a PL Quality Player, M is maybe and N is a No.

2 Ys and one Y loan (Skipp) as he wont be with us if we go up. Buendia is a Y too. So thats 4 PL level players. 3 Maybes and one Maybe with an option to buy (Gibson).

Placheta isnt even Chump standard IMO. The new LB likewise at present. 3 Maybes and one loan Maybe. Maybe harsh on Mclean but he didnt step up last time.

We have a long way to go to gain automatic promotion and we certainly are not a PL side in waiting.

You've included in your list some players who are unlikely to be with us next season anyway. 

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7 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

You're entitled to your opinion as I am mine. Mine is based on fact. That fact is that to be a Premier League footballer you need to consistently be able to pass the ball forwards to your team mates. I suggest you watch a little bit more carefully in future. 

No. It definitely isn't. You don't rate him as being potentially good enough, whilst virtually everyone else does. That's fine and maybe you will ultimately be correct. However, do not pretend that your opinion is any more valid than anyone else's or what you base it upon is superior to others, because it isn't. 

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Just one question: are you on crack? We don't 'struggle against the press', we time and time again carve teams open by passing the ball through them as they overcommit players in our half. We're top of the league precisely because we consistently have the best tactical system.

We don't have the best players in the league (although we do have *some* of them), we have the best *team* in the league because we play the best football. We pass well and transition better than any other championship side. Underpinning this is how we pass the ball through the whole team with exceptional discipline and composure.

We occasionally mess it up. No one is perfect. Every now and then we concede a goal from giving the ball away when playing out from the back. But, more often than not, we create chances by sticking to our style of play.

I know some people struggle to understand the modern game. It's hard to believe that zonal marking is actually objectively more successful than man-marking. "Get rid of it" I heard you shout, week after week. But the game has moved on, and we are among the most successful at adapting to the changing landscape.

The great news is that our philosophy is imbedded throughout the entire squad, right through to the youth team. When our first two choices of goalkeeper are unavailable, blow me if our young third-choice keeper isn't adept at passing the ball around at the back. What's that? Our young reserve right-back can seamlessly slot in at left midfield and carve open the best defence in the league?

Let's enjoy the fact that we're 7 points ahead of where we were at the same stage two years ago (while we were having our best ever league season) because we've evolved as a team and are playing even better.

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It’s all guesswork anyway at the end of the day, thankfully real football is unpredictable and not like a video game. Nobody knows what untried players will be like at the top level and some who struggled last season might be much improved next time around. 

In any event the recruitment MUST be considerably better than last time should we go up. 

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