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It's Character Forming

Recruitment- Prem vs Champs ?

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If we are super lucky we can non stop win, get promotion and have several games to try the young ones out   lol

 

I'm an eternal optimist i know...

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4 hours ago, It's Character Forming said:

It strikes me this season with Skipp Gibson Sorensen Giannoulis we seem to have actually improved our starting lineup despite relegation and selling a couple of stars (albeit we sold good players but easier to replace). Last season in the Prem I can’t really think of any joiners who improved the first team except Byram who was a known injury risk.

 

Obv it’s harder for a new player to look good in the Prem and we were particularly unfortunate with CB injuries last season.

 

But is there something else? Are we maybe gambling a bit more in the Prem on signings who might have potential at that level eg Amadou but paradoxically ending up falling short ?

 

The other thing that struck me in the Prem last season is the sheer impressive physicality of a lot of players in midfield in very ordinary Prem teams which we struggled to deal with.

 

 I guess my question is, what lessons should we learn if we go up, especially if we were to lose some important players over the summer?

You're right. Even in the average Premier League teams it appears the majority of the midfields contain 6'2' plus physical units which last season simply steamrollered us.We 'll have to address that to have any chance of competing.

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10 minutes ago, mannings bandy legs said:

You're right. Even in the average Premier League teams it appears the majority of the midfields contain 6'2' plus physical units which last season simply steamrollered us.We 'll have to address that to have any chance of competing.

Or find another way🙃

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I think realistically I expect several players to leave this summer.  Whichever league we end up in I think these players will be replaced with high potential players, who will fight to establish themselves in the premiership.  It is exciting, and with the cash from player sales these players should be the ones with more potential than the current set.  It would be really interesting to know which of the academy player Farke and Webber think will make it.  Idah needs to start playing or his career will not take off, same goes for Soto.

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2 hours ago, Indy said:

It’s noticeable that Zimmermann & Hanley aren’t premiership quality, Gibson could be, so definitely a new CB is needed.

 Rupp, McClean, Tettey, Vrancic aren’t premiership quality, can we loan Skipp another year? Hopefully but we need Sorensen to be another Soucek, but we will need at least one CM of premiership quality for definite.

On the wings, if we can keep Buendia & Cantwell with Hernandez & Placheta as back up, we could have enough there.

Number 10 we struggle with in the championship, so really hope that Martin pushes on with his development because what we have seen of Dowell & Vrancic nowhere near the quality needed. Again must look for a AM option.

Strikers well, Pukki has proved himself but we need a striker to push Pukki to start, not going to be Hugill or Idah, really thought Idah would push on with his development but looks to be going nowhere, would be good to get him out on loan next year. So there again in my opinion better quality striker needed.

Not sure how much we’ve got to spend but never going to have enough to cover all those areas, so we might be looking at the likes of Soto, Bushiri, McCullum, Mumba & Famewo to cover some areas.

But if we rely on those who were here last time then we’ve only got five or maybe six players good enough for this level, the rest only squad fill for a premiership team.

I think you're being unfair to Hanley there @Indy. If you look back to last season, after he was over his injury he did pretty well.  Also when he first came in, he struggled to play the ball out as required by Farkeball but he's much more comfortable doing that now.  I saw us live at Sheff Utd last March and he looked pretty comfortable against a very physical (and, to be honest, pretty cynical) side.  I've heard people say he lacks pace but he can really accelerate over 5-10 yards, although you wouldn't back him in a race backward from the half way line against a speedy winger, but that's true of most CBs.  I would be comfortable starting next season with him and Gibson plus Zimbo as cover but we then need a 4th and the question is whether we spend the money here on someone who's going to be first choice or a youngster with future potential, or elsewhere ?

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50 minutes ago, pete said:

Some ridiculous comments here:

Lets sign Loftus Cheek if Fulham are relegated, unlikely as he is on loan from Chelsea.

Mumba looked good, yes was outstanding for the entire 15 minutes he has played, not too much time to consider if good or not.

Quite aware of that pete. I didn't say anything about signing him. The comment relates to IF Fulham stay up, then you would naturally think he would either, stay there, or go back to Chelsea to try and get in their squad. If they go down, Chelsea may want him to develop in a similar sized Club. RLC has all the attributes, but, more importantly, is what goes on between the ears , but on ability etc then he is the sort of player I would like here. 

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46 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

I think you're being unfair to Hanley there @Indy. If you look back to last season, after he was over his injury he did pretty well.  Also when he first came in, he struggled to play the ball out as required by Farkeball but he's much more comfortable doing that now.  I saw us live at Sheff Utd last March and he looked pretty comfortable against a very physical (and, to be honest, pretty cynical) side.  I've heard people say he lacks pace but he can really accelerate over 5-10 yards, although you wouldn't back him in a race backward from the half way line against a speedy winger, but that's true of most CBs.  I would be comfortable starting next season with him and Gibson plus Zimbo as cover but we then need a 4th and the question is whether we spend the money here on someone who's going to be first choice or a youngster with future potential, or elsewhere ?

We need to stop making the same mistakes of overestimating our players ability to step up. Hanley is fine as a backup but he just isn't a Premier League quality starter and has to be improved on.

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Hanley wouldn't get into any prem starting 11, so why should he ours?

Zimbo would be a car crash waiting to happen in the prem.

Lets aim a bit higher...

2 of Famewo / Bushiri / Omobamidele as backups to a back pair of Gibson plus another

Maybe keep Hanley, i just don't want our kids paths to be blocked

Edited by Downloads

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Yes but we will only have a limited budget and we will have multiple other positions which IMO are more urgent.  My test for Hanley is that he showed he was capable of playing well against Prem defences last season.  Continuity is also important in defence.

 

The "aim higher" argument is nice enough but in the end, we only have so much money to spend.

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2 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

Yes but we will only have a limited budget and we will have multiple other positions which IMO are more urgent.  My test for Hanley is that he showed he was capable of playing well against Prem defences last season.  Continuity is also important in defence.

 

The "aim higher" argument is nice enough but in the end, we only have so much money to spend.

Did he though? The defence was awful last season. He looked OK but there is a reason he's spent the majority of his career kicking around the Championship. 

For me and upgrade in central defence is number 2 on the priority list after a defensive midfielder (if Skipp can't be brought back). 

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12 minutes ago, king canary said:

Did he though? The defence was awful last season. He looked OK but there is a reason he's spent the majority of his career kicking around the Championship. 

For me and upgrade in central defence is number 2 on the priority list after a defensive midfielder (if Skipp can't be brought back). 

Who would you play at number 10 ?

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Sell Aarons and Buendia 60mil minimum?

Reinvest in 3 x AMs, 1 x DM, 1 x CB, 1 x RB.

Prem money not touched and will hopefully cover wages

Postage stamp economics i am aware...

Edited by Downloads

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12 minutes ago, Haus said:

Who would you play at number 10 ?

Not sure to be honest- depends of Dowell can show something between now and the end of the season or if we move Cantwell into there.

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12 minutes ago, Downloads said:

Sell Aarons and Buendia 60mil minimum?

Reinvest in 3 x AMs, 1 x DM, 1 x CB, 1 x RB.

Prem money not touched and will hopefully cover wages

Postage stamp economics i am aware...

3 attacking mids seems extreme.

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Only if Todd goes.

We play with 3 behind the striker.

Dowell, Placheta, Argos as the backups (Vrancic and Steipi to go)

Todd plus 2 others, or 3 if he goes.

Edit: i'm only shooting the 5h1t here - i'm aware some people will be sharpening their knives in my direction

Edited by Downloads

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1 hour ago, Downloads said:

Only if Todd goes.

We play with 3 behind the striker.

Dowell, Placheta, Argos as the backups (Vrancic and Steipi to go)

Todd plus 2 others, or 3 if he goes.

Edit: i'm only shooting the 5h1t here - i'm aware some people will be sharpening their knives in my direction

I thought you were Alex Neil there for a moment 🤣 with wanting to recruit 3x AMs

 

Yes for me there's no question that we need Skipp or someone like him and a no. 10 simply because no-one has looked good enough to claim that position definitively this season even though we are leading the league, so why should they suddenly do well enough in the Prem?  Also someone as competition for the starting lineup for Pukki, we saw last season after his injury we constantly struggled for goals.  Then yes I'd like a CB signing but the level depends on what we can afford and who's available, I don't want us to be in the position again where we fail to sign Alderweireld and end up with no-one.

 

Plus whoever leaves from Buendia, Cantwell, Aarons obviously needs replacing but obviously we should get enough money to get in a young & hungry replacement.

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I honestly think next season won't be too far different to 2019/20.

Only teams on modest budgets that are built to dig in and play ugly can survive because those upgrades come cheaper.

Our possession based game relies on gifted technicians and to upgrade them is unthinkable with the salaries we can offer.

I honestly think the reality will be that we'll struggle to create chances and score enough goals and still ship in too many.

With the budget we have to play with I think the plan behind the scenes will again be ... strategise for relegation, grow the club another notch, make sure we return to the Championship even more likely to bounce back than in 2020 and go again.

Become 'established' on the 4th / 5th bounce back.

Edited by Cantiaci Canary

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37 minutes ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

I honestly think next season won't be too far different to 2019/20.

Only teams on modest budgets that are built to dig in and play ugly can survive because those upgrades come cheaper.

Our possession based game relies on gifted technicians and to upgrade them is unthinkable with the salaries we can offer.

I honestly think the reality will be that we'll struggle to create chances and score enough goals and still ship in too many.

With the budget we have to play with I think the plan behind the scenes will again be ... strategise for relegation, grow the club another notch, make sure we return to the Championship even more likely to bounce back than in 2020 and go again.

Become 'established' on the 4th / 5th bounce back.

Thank CC. Depressing but realistic, let’s see eh?

 

just to cheer us up, what number bounce back would this season be for you , assuming we are indeed able to complete this bounce as planned?

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4 hours ago, king canary said:

Did he though? The defence was awful last season. He looked OK but there is a reason he's spent the majority of his career kicking around the Championship. 

For me and upgrade in central defence is number 2 on the priority list after a defensive midfielder (if Skipp can't be brought back). 

Here's a crazy idea: players learn, work on their weaknesses and improve. When we went up I cringed at the idea of Hanley in the Prem, but since he came back from injury last season he has been superb. Also the defence is the one part of the team which can really be "more than the sum of its parts", and Hanley is a big part of a unit functioning very well this season. I think we'll sign a younger centre back IF we go up and I think that there's a fair chance he would displace Hanley by the end of the season, but Hanley/Gibson is a decent, experienced Prem partnership.

Edited by Mr.Carrow
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2 hours ago, It's Character Forming said:

Thank CC. Depressing but realistic, let’s see eh?

 

just to cheer us up, what number bounce back would this season be for you , assuming we are indeed able to complete this bounce as planned?

😂😂😂

I have to think like this to brace myself for the storm to come! To be honest I think I'm still recovering from how miserable it was to see our 'perfect' season of 2018/19 so brutally stamped on!

I would count this promotion (fingers crossed!) as bounce back 2.

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It needs to be said, premiership is far above the championship and Hanley isn’t up to a CB pairing, maybe if we played three at the back might be the cart horse needed to club the ball away.

He’s been OK this year but against premiership quality even the likes of lower teams will cut us to ribbons with Hanley there! We really need an upgrade on the starting 11 at CB. But can’t see it happening as said above.

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Every little helps. Being able to get 2 CBs on the pitch will help. A good partnership between those would help. More experienced full backs will help. A central midfield that can defend will help.

As Webber always says, I imagine we will have to be creative with the budget as we won't be able to afford to plug every gap. 

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A couple of observations from reading this thread.

While it's looking more & more likely, we're not promoted yet.

And now to disregard my own first observation: the chastening experience of last season looks to have made the majority on here a bit more realistic & pragmatic about our chances. Surely this is a good thing, and this pragmatism is shared in the boardroom I'm sure. We rode (myself included) a bit of a wave of optimism & naivety after the last promotion, which got fairly brutally crushed after some bruising 0-2 defeats if my memory serves. Amadou flopping, Pukki getting isolated and CB injuries shredded our already slim chance of being consistently competitive.

We simply won't be paying the kinds of outlandish wages required to tempt the calibre of player required. To be competitive without shattering the current financial structures, this summer's window will require some very clever use of scouting and the loan market alongside a handful of 'solid' signings in the 5-8m bracket, a la Gibson & Giannoulis. One would assume this process is well in hand already.

We need to sign a CB, a CDM, a 10 & a striker, a complete spine of players who can hopefully compete at Prem level. These are the hardest positions to successfully recruit for as every club wants them. A massive ask for Webber & co; would be a huge task even with a wealthy owner. 

Quite a few signs would suggest Aarons is leaving this summer, even if promoted. Would the club risk throwing Mumba in there? Unlikely, yet. Aarons learnt on the job here and the experience he has gained here will benefit another club soon, and good luck to him. But we'll need someone there too. 

Lots to ponder. But let's get promoted first and ponder some more! It's a huge challenge, but certainly not impossible. You need 3 teams to be even more shít than you. Avoid the trapdoor once and then you can start looking upwards.

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I would also add a keeper as back-up to TK and be looking around for direct replacements for Buendia, Aarons and Cantwell in case they all leave.

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I actually think there could be a lot of change over the summer. It's Webber's last with us and a ambitious Scott waiting in the wings. Webber won't want another relegation on his copy book.

The problem for many players in our squad  they have shown they are not good enough for the EPL. Add a few to that who seem to be struggling in the Chump. There could be as many leaving or loaned out as there are coming in.

I like to see 6 maybe 7 high quality coming in and as many going out to balance the books.

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45 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I actually think there could be a lot of change over the summer. It's Webber's last with us and a ambitious Scott waiting in the wings. Webber won't want another relegation on his copy book.

The problem for many players in our squad  they have shown they are not good enough for the EPL. Add a few to that who seem to be struggling in the Chump. There could be as many leaving or loaned out as there are coming in.

I like to see 6 maybe 7 high quality coming in and as many going out to balance the books.

I tend to agree but what worries me is that Farkeball relies on a high level of understanding between the players eg look at the goal Teemu scored at Anfield last season, it caught out the defence because Emi was playing the pass at the same time as Teemu was starting his run towards the same place. It takes time for new players to bed in and achieve that level of understanding, we can see that Dowell and Hugill for example are still not there yet.

 

Also  as you say Webber will be learning lessons from last time so I’m optimistic we won’t see the same mistakes repeated and also I  hope we won’t have the same injury nightmare.

 

interesting times for sure! 

 

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I do think this season is maybe our best chance to strengthen though.

Covid has hit other clubs much harder than us. Even with fans back next season clubs at home and abroad will have financial issues to overcome and play sales will play a large part in that. For example, if they don't go up, will Middlesbrough be able to demand the same level of fee for Dael Fry than the might have two seasons ago? Or Reading for Ejaria?

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Our problems last season were clearly defensive not helped by a terrible injury crisis - and for the record I don't blame Hanley for that. We shipped loads of goals in the Championship the season before relying on outscoring the opposition so end result when promoted not really unexpected. 

We already look a million miles better in that department although yes an extra CB needs to be found.

A Skipp/CDM and a No. 10 to compliment Pukki / another striker and assuming we can replace Emi/Aarons (Byram?)/Todd we'll do fine.

I have to be positive !

Edited by Yellow Fever

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