Farke's use of subs (in games we are winning narrowly)

[nutty nigel 7,527]

1 minute ago, CDMullins said:

Rediculously arrogant statement about a manager who came rock bottom of the Premier League last season.

I guess arrogance is in the eye of the beholder...

[king canary 7,599]

16 hours ago, Ian said:

Thanks for the reply. For what it's worth, in general I think you are a really good poster and more than likely I over-reacted to some heat-of-the-moment posts in the match thread, so I do apologise for that as it was pretty unnecessary on my part.

However, there has definitely been a repeated theme of posts and commentary regarding Farke making poor substitutions, not being aware of the depth he has on the bench, or being stubborn and unwilling to make substitutions to bring fresh legs on. To me, these are basics which every elite coach must be aware of - and IMO, given his track record, he deserves a little more benefit of the doubt.

Look - I know we all get frustrated and non-plussed at his "passive" approach to substitutions at times, and I do understand this viewpoint if we were losing games, or not in the position we are in the league table. But, I really do find it flabbergasting that people really think Farke is missing an obvious trick given his track record and our current league position, and consider it far more likely he knows a hell of a lot more about what he needs to do to get out of this division that we do.

All fair enough. Probably didn't help that the whole 'Farke knows more than you' is one of my least favourite arguments on this site. If we all went with that we should probably shut the forum down.

The way I view it is would Farke and co be looking for ways they or the players could do better even after a win or when we're top of the league? I'm sure they would be. So there is no harm in fans suggesting ways we can do better too. 

I do agree this forum isn't short of WUM's looking to be negative in any way they can who will jump on any opportunity (as Farke and this squad don't give them many) but I've always found it best to ignore them.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

Farke's record over two championship seasons is 158 points from 77 games. So it probably is best to use his PL record when judging his championship game management.

 

[CDMullins 436]

11 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Farke's record over two championship seasons is 158 points from 77 games. So it probably is best to use his PL record when judging his championship game management.

 

Game management is game management, no matter what division you're in.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

Just now, CDMullins said:

Game management is game management, no matter what division you're in.

So why is Farke's game management yesterday judged by his game management last season in the PL when it's widely accepted he was sent to war without a gun?

It smacks of "we're gonna nail him one way or another..."

[CDMullins 436]

12 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

So why is Farke's game management yesterday judged by his game management last season in the PL when it's widely accepted he was sent to war without a gun?

It smacks of "we're gonna nail him one way or another..."

Why are you comparing Championship Mangers who in your own words "Cant lay a glove on Farke" when they (the Rotherham's, Wycombe's and Coventrys) "haven't got a gun to go to war with"?

You can't have it both ways.

By the way, I'm no way Anti-Farke nor overly frustrated with his subsitutions.

Edited February 21, 2021 by CDMullins

[nutty nigel 7,527]

Just now, CDMullins said:

Why are you comparing Championship Mangers who in your own words "Cant lay a glove on Farke" when they (the Rotherham's, Wycombe's and Coventrys) "haven't got a gun to go to war with"?

You can't have it both ways.

By the way, I'm no way Anti-Farke nor frustrated with his subsitutions.

No, I'm judging Farke's game management and subs by his results in those games and subsequent league position.

What are you judging them on?

 

 

[hogesar 9,657]

1 hour ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I don’t think he’s scared, I think it’s just his preference to keep with the same 11, I don’t necessarily think it’s always right to change it either. But I do think we have the players available to utilise our bench a bit more, and I do think there have been plenty of games where the lack of subs in winning spots caused a shift in dynamic in the game. This season has been a stressful one on the heart!

Yes it hasn’t necessarily impacted our results, but I have noted it in our performances. And I do also think the lack of rotation may tire our squad out during the next run or games.

Of course I can’t prove myself to be right as has been said, but it is interesting that other clubs appear a bit more willing than Farke in the same spot. 

Thats totally fair and for clarity, I may have said previously, I'd have liked to seen Onel and Dowell come on yesterday at about 70 mins.

What others have done is make this a criticism of Farke rather than simply an observation. I dont think you can use it as a criticism when you can't prove the alternate outcome but the actual outcome is us top of the league!

[CDMullins 436]

5 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

No, I'm judging Farke's game management and subs by his results in those games and subsequent league position.

What are you judging them on?

 

 

But you're only judging him in seasons we've done well?

[nutty nigel 7,527]

Just now, CDMullins said:

But you're only judging him in seasons we've done well?

This has got to be a wind up.

I was judging him on yesterday's game and this seasons results. You, for some reason brought up last season. So I fell for it and brought up the previous championship season.

Let's go back to yesterday and this season. Agreed?

 

[hogesar 9,657]

3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

This has got to be a wind up.

I was judging him on yesterday's game and this seasons results. You, for some reason brought up last season. So I fell for it and brought up the previous championship season.

Let's go back to yesterday and this season. Agreed?

 

Who would @CDMullins have as our manager over Farke, from the championship?

[CDMullins 436]

1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

This has got to be a wind up.

I was judging him on yesterday's game and this seasons results. You, for some reason brought up last season. So I fell for it and brought up the previous championship season.

Let's go back to yesterday and this season. Agreed?

 

Surley you're on the wind up, claiming managers can't lay a glove on Farke.!

Anyway, yesterday, we won the game, the game was managed well.

Enjoy your Sunday dinner.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Who would @CDMullins have as our manager over Farke, from the championship?

Here's here for the sport. Nothing else I'm afraid☹️

[CDMullins 436]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Who would @CDMullins have as our manager over Farke, from the championship?

Properly confused,

I'm in no way Anti-Farke.

However Nutty's suggestion that no manager "could lay a glove on him" is obviously wrong.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

1 minute ago, CDMullins said:

Surley you're on the wind up, claiming managers can't lay a glove on Farke.!

Anyway, yesterday, we won the game, the game was managed well.

Enjoy your Sunday dinner.

Well 64 points from 31 games and just two goals conceded this year suggests I have a bit of a point.

As does you having to go back to last season.

[CDMullins 436]

2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Well 64 points from 31 games and just two goals conceded this year suggests I have a bit of a point.

As does you having to go back to last season.

"Surely the fact that the managers of these other clubs can't even lay a glove on Farke would point to him being right?"

Neil Warnock and Gary Rowett landed a glove.

Steve Cooper and Valerien Ismeal knocked him out.

And thats in last four weeks.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

3 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

"Surely the fact that the managers of these other clubs can't even lay a glove on Farke would point to him being right?"

Neil Warnock and Gary Rowett landed a glove.

Steve Cooper and Valerien Ismeal knocked him out.

And thats in last four weeks.

That's it then. To prove his worth he has to get 138 points this season.

 

[CDMullins 436]

1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

That's it then. To prove his worth he has to get 138 points this season.

 

Not to prove his worth, no - Don't be silly.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

19 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

"Surely the fact that the managers of these other clubs can't even lay a glove on Farke would point to him being right?"

Neil Warnock and Gary Rowett landed a glove.

Steve Cooper and Valerien Ismeal knocked him out.

And thats in last four weeks.

From a distance CD 

Tell you what..

You're not adverse to a wager. I'll pledge a tenner to Ray's Funds for each of those who finish above Farke. Will you reciprocate?

 

 

[CDMullins 436]

3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

From a distance CD 

Tell you what..

You're not adverse to a wager. I'll pledge a tenner to Ray's Funds for each of those who finish above Farke. Will you reciprocate?

 

 

Not entirely sure if you're on a diliberate wind up.

Again to confirm, 

I am in no way Anti-Farke

I wouldn't change him for any manager outside the Premier League

I have no issues with him game managment.

I think we will win the league - I have my own wager on this.

 

The only issue I have had, is your claim that no managers can lay a glove on him.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

1 minute ago, CDMullins said:

Not entirely sure if you're on a diliberate wind up.

Again to confirm, 

I am in no way Anti-Farke

I wouldn't change him for any manager outside the Premier League

I have no issues with him game managment.

I think we will win the league - I have my own wager on this.

 

The only issue I have had, is your claim that no managers can lay a glove on him.

Really. So we've been chasing our tails around three seasons just because you want to take my post out of context. 

That league table and your immediate scurrying to the PL season still suggest I have a point.

I hope you had your fun.

 

[CDMullins 436]

1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

Really. So we've been chasing our tails around three seasons just because you want to take my post out of context. 

That league table and your immediate scurrying to the PL season still suggest I have a point.

I hope you had your fun.

 

I have no idea why you want to continue this,

You can't make a rediculous claim then act like a diva when that claim is questioned.

Had my fun? I do hope you're not suggesting that I have been intentionally trolling.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

5 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

I have no idea why you want to continue this,

You can't make a rediculous claim then act like a diva when that claim is questioned.

Had my fun? I do hope you're not suggesting that I have been intentionally trolling.

Quite happy to carry on the debate if we keep it to this seasons games and this seasons league as that was what my post was replying to.

I did think your immediate reply about last season may be intentional trolling because I didn't see the relevance to this thread.

I still think my point stands.

Edited February 21, 2021 by nutty nigel

[CDMullins 436]

Just now, nutty nigel said:

Quite happy to carry on the debate if we keep it to this seasons games and this seasons league as the was what my post was replying to.

I did think your immediate reply about last season may be intentional trolling because I didn't see the relevance to this thread.

I still think my point stands.

Then there is nothing to debate.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

8 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Then there is nothing to debate.

There's nothing to debate because I think differently to you.

That's a good one CD.

Where does that register on your arrogance meter?

Edited February 21, 2021 by nutty nigel

[CDMullins 436]

Just now, nutty nigel said:

There's nothing to debate because I think differently to you.

That's a good one CD.

Where does that register on you arrogance metre?

What's the point in debating with someone who claims no manager can land a glove on Daniel Farke,

Despite been given four managers who have landed a glove on him this this month?

[nutty nigel 7,527]

2 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

What's the point in debating with someone who claims no manager can land a glove on Daniel Farke,

Despite been given four managers who have landed a glove on him this this month?

Not in the context of the league table they haven't.

Tell you what, forget all four, let's just pledge a tenner each for the two you reckon knocked Farke out?

[CDMullins 436]

Heaven forbid you agree your comment was ever so slighlty exaggerated.

Nope, not Nutty.

Right I'm done, have a lovely Sunday evening Nutty.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

Diva🙃

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

We are doing something tactically different this year. Something quite brave. It links with the issue of subs.

We are preparing for a higher level of football and have been for a couple of months. 

We have matured our game to the point where we are far from the ‘you score 4, we score 5’ rollercoaster of yesteryear - and indeed the fluid, attack-minded disrupt-you-by-attacking methodology that won praise - though few points - at the higher level. 

Thus a strategic dilemma.

As the club’s stated mission is Top 26 - and ideally for all Top 17 - then do you jump the hurdle that is in front of you (a) or prepare for the hurdle that is to come (b)?

Everyone will say ‘I want both’ though this requires a serious overhaul of tactical approach, something of a change of mentality, whilst naturally retaining all of the fundamental principles of pattern of play.

1. How does this translate into what we see in front of us?

2. What is the Manager doing differently?

3. What are the players doing differently?

4. Do we - as fans - need to change our thinking in any way as a result of 1,2,3?

(4.1) How does this affect substitutions (as a small subset of the overall picture)?

In basic terms this is the dilemma:

Norwich were horribly exposed at the top level. Being brave, ‘going for it’, flooding forward, scoring lots of goals to win games, high volume wins, individual brilliance...

were all over-shadowed by

....lack of weaknesses in any position, structural solidity, high levels of diligent athleticism (particularly vid defensive space-covering), set-piece specialists, highly professional approaches (‘gamesmanship’), tactical fouls, deeply-drilled structural shapes, squad depth, strong game-management, responsibility to the collective in almost all players  some good, weapon players on every side, et al.

How does what we see in front of us now relate to the above and the overall picture?

i. We are playing a much lower risk form of football

ii. We are retaining elements of our fluid forward play where appropriate (early, nil-nil ‘probing period’ or when presented with highly deficient opposition structure)

iii. Once ahead we are sucking the life out of teams - and the game itself - via possession, tempo control (sucking time out of the game, defusing moments when the opposition has any momentum, obtaining ‘easy’ fouls, not trying to advance out of shape..)

iv. Chris Goreham is wrong and Farke is right. The game is not ‘close’ at 1-0. It may be ‘close’ at 0-0 (though we are often well ahead on ‘points’ even at this stage) though the ‘fear’ so commonly expressed is subjective and - particularly yesterday - bears little ressemblance to the amount of on-field strategic control we exert. 

V. Football is a low-scoring game. One goal - as every good Italian knows - is a massive advantage, a huge disruptor to the opposition. They have to change (unless they play very low rent, low-possession,  keep-it-tight-hope-for-a-set-piece or bit-of-luck and cannot change..like Rotherham yesterday) and you do not.

vi. Change is not generally good in football. You spend enormous amounts of time setting up your structure, tactical plan, personnel interactions, minutiae that the average fan would scarcely believe. Change thus becomes an inferior Plan B (or it would have been Plan A). Things can work in your favour - though ‘bringing on Big Crouchy when they’re tiring’ is a luxury most Championship clubs don’t have. If their ‘Crouchy’ was better, he’d start. 

vii. ‘Rotherham’s Crouchy’ doesn’t start because ‘when you’re attacking you are defending’ and ‘when you’re defending you are attacking’. Every piece and action is inter-connected and affects the whole. Few fans have the inside knowledge, data, direct experience, direct contact with the psychology of the players or deep understanding of how disparate parts contribute to the whole. Adding one things costs another, which diminishes another, augments a different piece, all of which suits one player , makes it harder for another, increases stress on one part of the system, strengthening another....but how does that relate to your resources, what the opposition resources are, what the variables of the day are (pitch, conditions, league position, momentum, current dressing-room psychology)?

Viii. We are thus not trying to score at 1-0. We will will if a great opportunity presents itself, if someone does something strategically low-risk though brilliant, the opposition makes a mistake or the opposition breaks its own structure too much in trying to recover a goal. 

ix. When you are ahead you don’t need to change (nb: assuming - like us - that your game plan is superior, repeatedly troubling the opposition and making it notably more

likely that you will score - or not obviously concede via an apparent weakness).  It isn’t your problem. You might proactively counter a move the opposition is going to make (‘bringing on Crouchy’), though - as with yesterday - not if all that can be offered is more of the same. Why would you then change? The pattern of play is showing that you (remain) far more likely to score than the opposition. 

X. In this context subs become a tactical weapon - like a set piece - and are actually used to disrupt the opposition momentum, defuse the last 10 minutes (subs at ‘85 minutes’ as written may actually play for 15 minutes note), ‘steal’ time from the referees watch and re-inforce key spaces as opposition teams overload. 

xi. The actual quality of ‘chances’ we are conceding is generally very low. Fans are conditioned to fear narrow leads (in England) and thus hold their breath ‘Goreham-like’ every time the opposition crosses the half-way line because of ‘what might happen’ in their passionate, partisan minds. Professionals must resist such subjective fear and contextualise it clearly with the empirical evidence in front of them. 

We are preparing - bravely - for a higher level. This is not ‘putting the cart before the horse’ , it is necessary transitioning and re-inforces Farke’s (and others’) observation that free-scoring promoted teams may - occasionally - keep scoring at the top level and survive a (lucrative) year, though teams that generally establish over a mid-term period (and thus are able to structurally strengthen) have far better defensive structure, are able to ‘see out’ tight games and resist ‘fear marketing’ when they are ahead. 

Like any really good (and he is excellent) coach he is managing to elegantly tessellate the immediate objectives with organic, persistent progression towards a deeper growth objective. 

Thus you use current circumstances to create ‘set-pieces’ that point your charges towards the future. You are hardening your players to perform, act and decide as if they were playing at a (far) higher level. 

Which they will be. 

Parma 

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy