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Hardhouse44

Are the mistakes born out of fear?

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Are these mistakes that gift the opposition the ball in front of our goal born out of a fear of not playing to the Farke ethos. 
 

Take the bubble’s mistake yesterday. Why would any decent fullback play that ball. It’s got to go down the line. 
 

Yes we are a passing side but there’s passing and taking błoody big risks?

Thoughts?

 

 

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Farke said that Horizontal balls are not allowed, therefore the mistake leading to the stoke goal was actually against Farkes ethos. 

Farkes style is very high risk. The first goal an example, both Hanley and Gibson looked uncomfortable and it looked at any second we'd present them a clear goal scoring chance. But it ended up the other end and a goal to us. Another day it ends badly! 

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9 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Farke said that Horizontal balls are not allowed, therefore the mistake leading to the stoke goal was actually against Farkes ethos. 

Farkes style is very high risk. The first goal an example, both Hanley and Gibson looked uncomfortable and it looked at any second we'd present them a clear goal scoring chance. But it ended up the other end and a goal to us. Another day it ends badly! 

Which other day??? Out of the hundreds of times we've played the ball about in our own area since Farke came here when has it ended badly? Genuine question, because I'm struggling to remember one occasion when it has. I can think of quite a few examples of when we've given the ball away a bit further out and it has cost us, but not when playing it about in our own box like Hanley and Gibson did in the build up to our fantastic first goal yesterday. 

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Totally agree. Too many unnecessary risks playing out from the back and back passes putting Krull / defence under pressure. Same last week for Swansea’s second - and very nearly conceded early on against the Swans due to another poor back pass.


I love it when it goes well, but possession in the wrong part of the pitch is heart stopping and doesn’t look clever when you concede. 

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35 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Are these mistakes that gift the opposition the ball in front of our goal born out of a fear of not playing to the Farke ethos. 
 

Take the bubble’s mistake yesterday. Why would any decent fullback play that ball. It’s got to go down the line. 
 

Yes we are a passing side but there’s passing and taking błoody big risks?

Thoughts?

 

 

We won 4-1 and played Stoke off the park. Go and watch the video of our first goal yesterday and revel in having a team that is so comfortable and confident on the ball.

 

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19 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Farke said that Horizontal balls are not allowed, therefore the mistake leading to the stoke goal was actually against Farkes ethos. 

Farkes style is very high risk. The first goal an example, both Hanley and Gibson looked uncomfortable and it looked at any second we'd present them a clear goal scoring chance. But it ended up the other end and a goal to us. Another day it ends badly! 

High risk and even higher reward. 

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Go and have a look at the highlights of our win v Man City. Absolutely exquisite. Perhaps that is because we could 'afford' to  play with freedom against them, as there was no expectation to win. Great to watch and it will work more often that it won't. You have to embrace what you see and will have to ride the wave 🙂 

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It's completely the opposite. It's fear that makes us want them to get the ball away from dangerous areas. 

We don't enjoy it. Whenever we play out we feel we were lucky and should have got rid straight away. Since Farke has been here for my sanity I've had to try to relearn how to watch the game. This is not a criticism of him BTW. 

I do honestly feel that unless we are top of the league and winning it will be very hard for a lot of supporters to accept these tactics. It's so alien to what most of us have been used to in the English game.

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44 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

We won 4-1 and played Stoke off the park. Go and watch the video of our first goal yesterday and revel in having a team that is so comfortable and confident on the ball.

 

I agree to a point but Stoke are pisś poor. They haven’t won a game since god knows when. A better side punishes more of those mistakes and we don’t score 4 very often

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14 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

It's completely the opposite. It's fear that makes us want them to get the ball away from dangerous areas. 

We don't enjoy it. Whenever we play out we feel we were lucky and should have got rid straight away. Since Farke has been here for my sanity I've had to try to relearn how to watch the game. This is not a criticism of him BTW. 

I do honestly feel that unless we are top of the league and winning it will be very hard for a lot of supporters to accept these tactics. It's so alien to what most of us have been used to in the English game.

I think you might be right. Everything that 40+ years of watching football has given me  screams to me WTF is the fullback doing even thinking the pass inside is an option. 
 

I don’t like the sloppy mistakes and if we win the league or obtain promotion then I’m sure I’d be gracious enough to live with a few😜 but it just seems we take a risk to far sometimes and put it down to being our style. Are we saying we can’t have both? I don’t buy that.

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Giannoulis was a bit slow with the ball up the line (it was a good press by Stoke, to be fair) so thought he had to go inside. At the same time, possession of the ball is the core tenet of Farke's style of play, so it's no surprise that he wants his teams to play it short from the back if possible and work their way up the field.

What some forget is if you draw the opposition onto you, then play through the press, you've more space. We've all noted with gritted teeth this season our issues when a team just sits, sits, and sits again. Playing it out slowly from the back is our way of encouraging the other team forward to break that low block if we can't thread balls through the eyes of needles.

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I think we are saying Farke won't have both. He wants players to be brave and play out. I get it. It's an uncomfortable watch when it goes wrong. But it doesn't go wrong as often as the ball coming straight back from more  "traditional" clearances. 

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1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Giannoulis was a bit slow with the ball up the line (it was a good press by Stoke, to be fair) so thought he had to go inside. At the same time, possession of the ball is the core tenet of Farke's style of play, so it's no surprise that he wants his teams to play it short from the back if possible and work their way up the field.

What some forget is if you draw the opposition onto you, then play through the press, you've more space. We've all noted with gritted teeth this season our issues when a team just sits, sits, and sits again. Playing it out slowly from the back is our way of encouraging the other team forward to break that low block if we can't thread balls through the eyes of needles.

Again I agree, I’m not saying we need to stop playing out from the back. I’m saying there’s a time and a place for it. 

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I agree that sometimes we look nervous at the back - but other times it means we keep posession and go on and score a great team goal, as yesterday.  Playing around at the back is such an important part of the way we play and what we have to do is learn to do it better so we don't look so dodgy as we do at times.

What causes problems is playing the ball to a player who is too surrounded by opposition players. Sometimes Krul is a bit slow and it gives time for opposition to close us down - Barden was excellent at passing the ball straight out to a defender when he played, giving the opposition less time. Other times Krul is excellent with his distribution, so I'm not suggesting a change, just maybe that he could be a bit quicker with his passing.  It is usually when he hesitates too long before releasing the ball that it puts defenders under pressure. 

Overall we just need to be more efficient at it to quell those nervous moments when it looks as if we might get caught out.  As for those balls straight to an opposition player, well that is just a mistake, pure an simple. Those just ought not to happen and isn't anything to do with the system, it is just an error.

 

Edited by lake district canary

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I agree with you to an extent Nutty, but we were lucky McClean didn’t gift another yesterday with his insane pass back.

It’s fantastic to watch when it all ends well. In a tight game when pressure’s on, it’s heart in mouth stuff!

As you say, all well and good when we’re winning! 

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1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

I think we are saying Farke won't have both. He wants players to be brave and play out. I get it. It's an uncomfortable watch when it goes wrong. But it doesn't go wrong as often as the ball coming straight back from more  "traditional" clearances. 

No I understand that. It just there has to be a time and a place for it and I’m wondering if players are under pressure to play that way when it isn’t actually on or clearly beneficial.

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3 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Again I agree, I’m not saying we need to stop playing out from the back. I’m saying there’s a time and a place for it. 

Sure, but invariably, you can only speak from hindsight.

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13 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

No I understand that. It just there has to be a time and a place for it and I’m wondering if players are under pressure to play that way when it isn’t actually on or clearly beneficial.

We sign players to play that way. 

On that note the podcast should be interesting later with Kieran Scott.

https://www.facebook.com/NorwichCityFootballClub/videos/158254259303338/

Edited by nutty nigel

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Playing out from the back relies on midfield players taking up positions where they can receive the ball - as Skipp did yesterday (eventually), so many Stoke players were taken out by his turn into space, which led to the goal. Hanley had to beat a man to create space - that's what makes people nervous, when centre backs or goalkeepers have to take men on. If they don't have an easy out ball, what else can they do? It's what Boro and Millwall did to us - let our centre backs have the ball, cut down their options, then press them into errors.

Stoke were never as intense in their press - it was all a bit half hearted, to be honest, yet they still got some great chances because we set up to be more offensive and open. It's a risk, obviously, but I hope we will keep playing like this against lower opposition but will tighten up again against Brentford etc. But if we take that into the EP, if we go up,  but like we did last time, we will get murdered again.

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1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

High risk and even higher reward. 

Absolutely, but sometimes the tools at Farkes disposal are not quite sharp enough for this style. Hanley, for example, it isnt his natural game. But he's making a good first of it. 

I'm not criticising by the way, I much prefer a total football approach. When it works, it's a delight to watch. And something to be really proud of as a supporter. 

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3 hours ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Are these mistakes that gift the opposition the ball in front of our goal born out of a fear of not playing to the Farke ethos. 
 

Take the bubble’s mistake yesterday. Why would any decent fullback play that ball. It’s got to go down the line. 
 

Yes we are a passing side but there’s passing and taking błoody big risks?

Thoughts?

 

 

In answer to the question you pose in the thread title I would say actually, if anything, it's too much positivity and self confidence which is leading to the odd mistake in a dangerous position. 

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Watching the goal back, as soon as Giannoulis gets the ball back from Skipp he has 3 options really, the first being to simply launch the ball up the field (unlikely given the way we play), the second is to try and flick it past the Stoke player back to Skipp (possibly win a throw in as the worst case, though Skipp isn't in a great position to do much with it either) and the third is to do what he did, which was dribble inside. Now once he has dribbled inside he would have soon realised he didn't have many options. Vrancic finds himself behind Mclean, meaning that one possible option is already out. Giannoulis is then pressed by a midfielder who has covered off Mclean at the same time. If you pause just before he plays the pass, in my view he has only 2 options, pass to Hanley or attempt the switch to Aarons. Giving it to Hanley would have put him under immediate pressure, though he could have cleared it if in trouble. The pass to Aarons is probably the most positive, attacking option, he was in plenty of space as Stoke had condensed the space from the throw in. However it goes wrong as he tries to whip the ball with the inside of his foot, which can often go wrong and never get enough height (see most free kicks and corners). If he had chipped it then this wouldn't be a worry, and I'm sure if he finds himself in a similar situation he will do just that.

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Our first goal only happens because our defenders are confident enough to hold on the ball against the press and pass through it. In that situation defenders having the confidence to hold onto the ball for an extra half second despite being closed down is vital.

We are very good at it comparatively speaking in this division. 

What on earth our left back passing inside blindly has to do with  our General approach I'm not entirely sure.

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4 hours ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Are these mistakes that gift the opposition the ball in front of our goal born out of a fear of not playing to the Farke ethos. 
 

Take the bubble’s mistake yesterday. Why would any decent fullback play that ball. It’s got to go down the line. 
 

Yes we are a passing side but there’s passing and taking błoody big risks?

Thoughts?

 

 

Dont let your fear spoil the enjoyment of watching our squad and Club develop, embrace it and fear will evaporate. 

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5 hours ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Are these mistakes that gift the opposition the ball in front of our goal born out of a fear of not playing to the Farke ethos. 
 

Take the bubble’s mistake yesterday. Why would any decent fullback play that ball. It’s got to go down the line. 
 

Yes we are a passing side but there’s passing and taking błoody big risks?

Thoughts?

 

 

I think look at the build up to our opener. 

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