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hampton canary

We need to tweak our tactics so we are not predictable.

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It’s noticeable how much cover both Buendia and Cantwell do when both playing, so we move the ball far quicker going forward when both are playing, as Aarons and Sorensen get forwards more.

Two things stand out for me, we’ve been poor in front of goal, we have to convert in front of goal and we need to get back to playing good fast flowing passes, we cut teams to bits when we do.

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When we can get someone effective in that No 10 role acm we will be fine , problem is stieper , vrancic ,Kenny , have not been consistent enough so far.

Edited by Canary dwarf

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26 minutes ago, hampton canary said:

We are lucky if we create 3 or 4 chances a game. We can often play 20 sideways, backwards and forwards passes in our own half and as soon as we get into the opposition half it breaks down. 

Well, if that were true it would still be better than the rest of the division pretty much apparently.

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11 minutes ago, Indy said:

It’s noticeable how much cover both Buendia and Cantwell do when both playing, so we move the ball far quicker going forward when both are playing, as Aarons and Sorensen get forwards more.

Two things stand out for me, we’ve been poor in front of goal, we have to convert in front of goal and we need to get back to playing good fast flowing passes, we cut teams to bits when we do.

As I said in my original post when we move the ball quickly no team can live with us,  unfortunately we only see this sort of movement perhaps 10 mins in a game.

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7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Well, if that were true it would still be better than the rest of the division pretty much apparently.

I don't have the stats for every team but I think Brentford, Barnsley, Watford, Reading and Luton have all created more chances than us in the matches we have played against them.

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1 minute ago, hampton canary said:

As I said in my original post when we move the ball quickly no team can live with us,  unfortunately we only see this sort of movement perhaps 10 mins in a game.

Admittedly we do start games well and tail off a bit, but considering we scored lots of our goals in the last 15 minutes we do finish well too.

We keep control and during the games we move the ball really well, that’s why so many managers rate us. The last four games we’ve kept the ball but far too negatively. That will change with Buendia back in. Sorensen,Skipp & McClean in midfield with a fluent idea allowing McClean to push up in the number 10 might work.

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5 minutes ago, Indy said:

Admittedly we do start games well and tail off a bit, but considering we scored lots of our goals in the last 15 minutes we do finish well too.

We keep control and during the games we move the ball really well, that’s why so many managers rate us. The last four games we’ve kept the ball but far too negatively. That will change with Buendia back in. Sorensen,Skipp & McClean in midfield with a fluent idea allowing McClean to push up in the number 10 might work.

I hope you are right because attack is the best form of defence. 

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Just now, hampton canary said:

I hope you are right because attack is the best form of defence. 

Keep the faith.....we’ll be OK.

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14 minutes ago, hampton canary said:

I don't have the stats for every team but I think Brentford, Barnsley, Watford, Reading and Luton have all created more chances than us in the matches we have played against them.

That will happen in some games of course. I'm talking in general. I.e chances created across the league which is a better indication but I would say we've created more chances against far more teams than your little list there.

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3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

"Found out" is not correct.  It's not rocket science - everyone knows how we play and always have done. They then try and counter it and if we are not at our best they might get something from the game.  In this league when we are at our best we are nigh unplayable - it's just that we have gone off the boil a bit. That does not mean change anything much, it just means returning to our best form.

I broke a habit of the last few years and watched a PL game not involving us yesterday - Liverpool v Man City and I was struck about how similar to us both teams looked to how we play.  Yes, the players may be better, but overall, the similarities were clear (imo).

At it's best the two teams are unplayable, but for long periods they cancelled each other out, until Man City got the breaks.

Simply speaking, we don't need to change anything, we just need to do what we are doing, but do it better.

I wish an Alisson-a-like keeper was playing against us every week. Opponent goalies always seem to have blinders.

One thing we need to do more (& I think it's mainly down to confidence) is take the ball on the half turn in midfield. It would give us the option of going forward as well as a straight back pass & give the opposition a lot more to think about.

Edited by ron obvious

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I think it’s the beauty of football that teams have very different styles and each game can be a different challenge, this seems particularly prevalent in the championship. Brentford remind me a bit of ourselves in the championship 2 years ago, very expansive and very open, we all know how that ended up in the premier but might well be good enough to blast themselves up. Swansea are very well drilled and try and overload in wide areas, they have been fortunate with injuries to date and hourihane gives them quality no doubt about it. I do think teams will start to set out to frustrate both of them the way they do us now so it will be an interesting run-in.

I think our challenge this season has been a lack of goals, or more importantly threat from number 10. It has left Pukki so isolated at times and I think the lack of pace anywhere has restricted our ability to hurt teams in transition. I think Hernandez might be the key for us at the tail end of this season, He backs opponents up and can commit defenders to make space elsewhere. I’d like to see him start on the left and Cantwell/ Buendia both be interchangeable and let Aaron’s get down the right. Sorenson naturally won’t need to venture as far and gives us cover at the back. Dowell can be the main plan B and we need to get him upto speed quickly and rotate those 4 as needed. I would also be tempted to give Pukki the next 3-4 games and the change up for Idah if not working and bring A fresh Teemu on after 70 to go at tiring legs. 

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14 minutes ago, Big O said:

I think it’s the beauty of football that teams have very different styles and each game can be a different challenge, this seems particularly prevalent in the championship. Brentford remind me a bit of ourselves in the championship 2 years ago, very expansive and very open, we all know how that ended up in the premier but might well be good enough to blast themselves up. Swansea are very well drilled and try and overload in wide areas, they have been fortunate with injuries to date and hourihane gives them quality no doubt about it. I do think teams will start to set out to frustrate both of them the way they do us now so it will be an interesting run-in.

I think our challenge this season has been a lack of goals, or more importantly threat from number 10. It has left Pukki so isolated at times and I think the lack of pace anywhere has restricted our ability to hurt teams in transition. I think Hernandez might be the key for us at the tail end of this season, He backs opponents up and can commit defenders to make space elsewhere. I’d like to see him start on the left and Cantwell/ Buendia both be interchangeable and let Aaron’s get down the right. Sorenson naturally won’t need to venture as far and gives us cover at the back. Dowell can be the main plan B and we need to get him upto speed quickly and rotate those 4 as needed. I would also be tempted to give Pukki the next 3-4 games and the change up for Idah if not working and bring A fresh Teemu on after 70 to go at tiring legs. 

I agree with most of what you say. We can start a new run of wins with Stoke on Sat.

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39 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

I wish an Alisson-a-like keeper was playing against us every week. Opponent goalies always seem to have blinders.

One thing we need to do more (& I think it's mainly down to confidence) is take the ball on the half turn in midfield. It would give us the option of going forward as well as a straight back pass & give the opposition a lot more to think about.

Yeah why do so many goalies have blinders against us , quite bizzare

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I can just imagine the scenes at Conley this morning.

Webber bursts into Farke’s office waving his phone.

”Here Daniel, have you seen this post on the Pink Un?”.

”No. Why, what does it say?”.

”Apparently teams have now worked out how we play! How frustrating! Especially as no-one has a clue about how any other team in this division will approach a game, but they know what we will do!”.

”Sh*t! What can we do?”.

”It’s ok, the answers here as well”

”Fantastic, what is the secret?”.

”Well, you know how we’ve spent nearly four years coaching the team to play in a certain way? And bought players whose skills fit into that style? And instilled the same ethos into the academy which has had all that money and effort invested into it?”.

”Yesss....”.

” That’s all wrong! We should be doing it differently! We should be better at attacking, score more and not let in goals despite weakening those improvements we’ve made to our defence!”.

“Oh, and apparently we risk losing the ball when the goalie passes it to a defender, so a random boot upfield will work much better”.

”For sure! Why didn’t we think of that? Give me that phone and let’s get cracking...”.

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1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

I can just imagine the scenes at Conley this morning.

Webber bursts into Farke’s office waving his phone.

”Here Daniel, have you seen this post on the Pink Un?”.

”No. Why, what does it say?”.

”Apparently teams have now worked out how we play! How frustrating! Especially as no-one has a clue about how any other team in this division will approach a game, but they know what we will do!”.

”Sh*t! What can we do?”.

”It’s ok, the answers here as well”

”Fantastic, what is the secret?”.

”Well, you know how we’ve spent nearly four years coaching the team to play in a certain way? And bought players whose skills fit into that style? And instilled the same ethos into the academy which has had all that money and effort invested into it?”.

”Yesss....”.

” That’s all wrong! We should be doing it differently! We should be better at attacking, score more and not let in goals despite weakening those improvements we’ve made to our defence!”.

“Oh, and apparently we risk losing the ball when the goalie passes it to a defender, so a random boot upfield will work much better”.

”For sure! Why didn’t we think of that? Give me that phone and let’s get cracking...”.

Very creative and  funny response but sadly you missed the point. If you had read it properly  I suggested tweak the tactics not change completely. I have no idea where you read a random boot upfield. You may have missed your vocation and perhaps you should consider becoming a BBC reporter.

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18 hours ago, ridgeman said:

I would also like to see our fastest player on or near the halfway line because it normally takes two players out of the opposition attack. I would also like to see us attack much quicker, at present we rely on the possession based game where we string together far too many passes to get to the oppositions penalty area this gives the opposition time to organise their defence to nullify any threat. I feel that when we are playing packed defences we must shoot from distance more. Having  watched Brentford a couple of times I noticed how quick they can get the ball forward I would like us todo the same whether its more direct passing or using the speedof Placheta and Hernandez.

I do definitely think there is something in the point about opposition defences having time to nullify our threat.

The three games this season where I think we've looked really back to our dangerous best were away at Bristol City and Stoke and the first half at Cardiff. In all three we got the ball forward much quicker, managed to get players running in behind their defence and basically opened them up with ease. Appreciate its not so easy to do at home where teams sit back but i do feel that we are overplaying it at times in midfield thus giving teams the chance to get set defensively. We still manage to get the ball tp Pukki but when we do so he's invariably get a few defenders around him and is snatching at chances a bit as he feels under time pressure. 

I've said in another post that as much as I think they are both good players (and both are arguably playing well) I don;t think we are direct enough with Rupp and Skipp together. They both like to play short passes and keep the ball moving but I kjust think they slow down our play a bit through that mid section of the pitch so we are not stretching teams like we used to. There is actually a strong argument to drop Vrancic deeper and play him next to Skipp at least in the home games as he can play longer passes to unlock the defence. Rupp too often doesn't see the early pass in my opinion.

 

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12 hours ago, Canary dwarf said:

Yeah why do so many goalies have blinders against us , quite bizzare

I don;t think they do this season. They certainly did in the prem and that have in the past but i think more often than not we are completely missing the target this season and not even really working the keeper. I certainly can't think of very many games where the keeper has been MOTM.

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7 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I do definitely think there is something in the point about opposition defences having time to nullify our threat.

The three games this season where I think we've looked really back to our dangerous best were away at Bristol City and Stoke and the first half at Cardiff. In all three we got the ball forward much quicker, managed to get players running in behind their defence and basically opened them up with ease. Appreciate its not so easy to do at home where teams sit back but i do feel that we are overplaying it at times in midfield thus giving teams the chance to get set defensively. We still manage to get the ball tp Pukki but when we do so he's invariably get a few defenders around him and is snatching at chances a bit as he feels under time pressure. 

I've said in another post that as much as I think they are both good players (and both are arguably playing well) I don;t think we are direct enough with Rupp and Skipp together. They both like to play short passes and keep the ball moving but I kjust think they slow down our play a bit through that mid section of the pitch so we are not stretching teams like we used to. There is actually a strong argument to drop Vrancic deeper and play him next to Skipp at least in the home games as he can play longer passes to unlock the defence. Rupp too often doesn't see the early pass in my opinion.

 

He's invariably got most of our midfielders and wingers standing next to him too, it's usually pretty crowded by the time we've walked the ball to Pukki. Reminds me of the Uppers & Downers annual village match chasing the ball through the high street. 

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Reminds me of the debate about England at times. Weaker teams sat back, England sat around passing the ball with 70%+ possession and struggled to snatch a win. Margins are very fine. The slow possession game we have means we need top quality players or the wonder pass to open teams up.  Preferably both. Not having the quality meant that we just couldn't really compete at PL level last season, the games we did well at I seem to remember we played more compact and on the break. Its not all or nothing, I think we just need to mix it up a bit more. Slow, slow then sometimes maybe a bit more direct or with much more pace of ball movement. Pull back and tempt the opposition out if they let our CBs keep the ball on the half way line. The slow sideways possession game is easier to defend against and easier to press into mistakes. We have the personnel to do it.

The other thing for me is how "pumped" our team is at the start and restart. Sometimes we seem so languid and only get tempo when chasing the game,  do we need a firebrand assistant manager in there getting everyone really fired up? When we had the unmentionable guy now down the road in charge there was no doubt that although we didn't have the most skill we could match anyone for determination right from the off.

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I am hopeful that we we don't train just to play one way. Surely, if we train its with the club we are playing next game in mind. Yes we want to impose our style and tactics on the game but I hope we do take into account that Brentford will be different to Boro.

But I can understand what the OP is meaning. For instance, and it applies to most clubs, why coaches believe the only way they can score in the last five minutes is to put more up front, bring on subs and play at a quicker pace.

 

Edited by keelansgrandad

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7 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

I don;t think they do this season. They certainly did in the prem and that have in the past but i think more often than not we are completely missing the target this season and not even really working the keeper. I certainly can't think of very many games where the keeper has been MOTM.

Rank Name GoalsGL AssistsA PlayedP Goals per 90 Mins per GoalMPG Total Shots Goal Conversion Shot Accuracy

The statistics shown for each player include any goals they may have scored in the following competitions in the current season: Championship, The FA Cup, EFL Cup

This info came from the BBC website. You can look up any team's data. Given Lakey's comments I had a look at Man City's numbers and the main difference is that their first 6 scorers all scored in significant numbers whereas we are overly reliant on Pukki and Buendia. Hugill's numbers are OK, however he doesn't play if Pukki plays so if an opponent wants to shut us up they just need to stop Pukki and if they can stop Emi too then we'll struggle. 

1
Teemu Pukki
 
11 1 25 0.49 183 48 23% 58%
2
Emiliano Buendía
 
7 6 24 0.33 276 46 15% 50%
3
Jordan Hugill
 
4 0 21 0.48 188 21 19% 62%
4
Mario Vrancic
 
3 3 25 0.22 405 29 10% 34%
5
Todd Cantwell
 
2 3 18 0.14 661 23 9% 35%
5
Kenny McLean
 
2 2 21 0.14 625 14 14% 29%
7
Marco Stiepermann
 
1 2 15 0.09 1018 19 5% 63%
7
Adam Idah
 
1 1 10 0.33 270 9 11% 67%
7
Josh Martin
 
1 1 11 0.17 538 6 17% 67%
7
Przemyslaw Placheta
 
1 1 22 0.07 1212 20 5% 40%
7
Jacob Sørensen
 
1 1 21 0.05 1841 10 10% 80%
7
Kieran Dowell
 
1 0 12 0.22 418 5 20% 40%
7
Grant Hanley
 
1 0 26 0.04 2295 16 6% 31%
7
Max Aarons
 
1 0 30 0.03 2636 14 7% 36%
Edited by Bonzo

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Interesting stats, although Hugill has not played many minutes and the data is therefore probably not statistically reliable, that he pretty close to Pukki in minutes per goal, conversion and accuracy. With a decent run he could work out well.

I think the issue is more about how the midfield perform, they are the ones which need to create the chances for the strikers and at the moment we are simply not getting them into dangerous positions enough- adds to the pressure to score when a chance appears as they are happening rarely.

 

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On 08/02/2021 at 18:30, hampton canary said:

It is often the way you approach the game that will determine the outcome. When we played Boro at home we didn't get a shot on goal and played our usual slow game. When I watched the highlights of Brentford away to Boro it was attack from the beginning from Brentford. Over the years I have watched Norwich teams play the Brentford way and I prefer that to our current tactics.

Sorry, I don't agree and I think that is borne in the statistics. You can argue about the validity of them, but any site you look at has us top for shots, chances created, expected goals and pretty much every attacking statistic, other than those which matter (goals and chances converted).

It's pretty clear that our problem this season has been the fact that, for whatever reason, we just haven't generated enough high quality chances, and when we have, simply haven't been clinical enough. I don't think it's fair to suggest we have been slow getting forward, we have actually been much more direct this season a lot of the time, and seemed to enjoy our best periods of games early on before teams are able to get settled.

As for the point about Boro vs Brentford/us, it's pretty well documented Warnock went with a highly defensive strategy against us, but far more attacking against Brentford based on his perceived weaknesses of the opposition.

The last few games have certainly been weaker in terms of decent chances, but ot's always going to be more difficult to generate these against a packed defence with man-markers, but let's not forget Vrancic spurned an absolutely glorious chance early on in that game. IMO this is more evidence that we are unable to take our chances and make the right decisions at key times, rather than not pushing forward from the offset.
 

Edited by Ian

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I think our recruitment over the summer has certainly shown a focus on diversifying our play. 

Hugill and Placheta both give us different dimensions- aerial ability and hold up play for Hugill, pace for Placheta. The issue is that the way most teams play against us doesn't mean our plan B gets much of a chance. If teams are sitting deep, packing the box and trying to hit us on the counter then having a pacey winger to take a player on is not that helpful. So the shorter triangles we use in plan A are likely the best way to get through those defences, maybe using Hugill with Pukki and asking our wider players to put in more early crosses if we struggle.

It was mentioned on the last page but I'd love to see us try out a back 3 from the start more often- Aarons is easily our most dangerous wide player when he's allowed to get forward and having a back 3 allows us to push him higher up the pitch. It also allows us to either push Cantwell and Buendia closer to Pukki or play one of Hugill and Idah with Pukki and let Buendia roam freely in support.

The worry with that is making sure we don't end up just playing as a back 5, but we're on the front foot enough that I wouldn't worry about that.

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21 hours ago, Bonzo said:
Rank Name GoalsGL AssistsA PlayedP Goals per 90 Mins per GoalMPG Total Shots Goal Conversion Shot Accuracy

The statistics shown for each player include any goals they may have scored in the following competitions in the current season: Championship, The FA Cup, EFL Cup

This info came from the BBC website. You can look up any team's data. Given Lakey's comments I had a look at Man City's numbers and the main difference is that their first 6 scorers all scored in significant numbers whereas we are overly reliant on Pukki and Buendia. Hugill's numbers are OK, however he doesn't play if Pukki plays so if an opponent wants to shut us up they just need to stop Pukki and if they can stop Emi too then we'll struggle. 

1
Teemu Pukki
 
11 1 25 0.49 183 48 23% 58%
2
Emiliano Buendía
 
7 6 24 0.33 276 46 15% 50%
3
Jordan Hugill
 
4 0 21 0.48 188 21 19% 62%
4
Mario Vrancic
 
3 3 25 0.22 405 29 10% 34%
5
Todd Cantwell
 
2 3 18 0.14 661 23 9% 35%
5
Kenny McLean
 
2 2 21 0.14 625 14 14% 29%
7
Marco Stiepermann
 
1 2 15 0.09 1018 19 5% 63%
7
Adam Idah
 
1 1 10 0.33 270 9 11% 67%
7
Josh Martin
 
1 1 11 0.17 538 6 17% 67%
7
Przemyslaw Placheta
 
1 1 22 0.07 1212 20 5% 40%
7
Jacob Sørensen
 
1 1 21 0.05 1841 10 10% 80%
7
Kieran Dowell
 
1 0 12 0.22 418 5 20% 40%
7
Grant Hanley
 
1 0 26 0.04 2295 16 6% 31%
7
Max Aarons
 
1 0 30 0.03 2636 14 7% 36%

I don;t know what you would ordinarily expect for "goal conversion" and "shot accuracy" figures at our level but some of those from our regular starters seem low. Vrancic in particular which backs up my perception that he's lost his shooting boots this season. I would bet you a fair amount that in our previous promotion season his (and Pukki's) figures were significantly higher. Cantwell needs to be doing significantly better as well. 

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3 hours ago, king canary said:

I think our recruitment over the summer has certainly shown a focus on diversifying our play. 

Hugill and Placheta both give us different dimensions- aerial ability and hold up play for Hugill, pace for Placheta. The issue is that the way most teams play against us doesn't mean our plan B gets much of a chance. If teams are sitting deep, packing the box and trying to hit us on the counter then having a pacey winger to take a player on is not that helpful. So the shorter triangles we use in plan A are likely the best way to get through those defences, maybe using Hugill with Pukki and asking our wider players to put in more early crosses if we struggle.

It was mentioned on the last page but I'd love to see us try out a back 3 from the start more often- Aarons is easily our most dangerous wide player when he's allowed to get forward and having a back 3 allows us to push him higher up the pitch. It also allows us to either push Cantwell and Buendia closer to Pukki or play one of Hugill and Idah with Pukki and let Buendia roam freely in support.

The worry with that is making sure we don't end up just playing as a back 5, but we're on the front foot enough that I wouldn't worry about that.

The other issue is that Placheta is utterly sh*t and makes the wrong decision every single time he gets the ball. Its all very well having pace but if you can;t use it effectively and have no end product its not much use. 

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1 hour ago, Gordon Bennett said:

We are top of the league (for the next few hours at least) because of how we play. Keep the faith.

We got dumped out of the Premier League because of the way we played. Keep realistic. 

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

The other issue is that Placheta is utterly sh*t and makes the wrong decision every single time he gets the ball. Its all very well having pace but if you can;t use it effectively and have no end product its not much use. 

Utterly **** feels harsh, but he is very raw which concerns me as he isn't a teenager at this point.

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On 10/02/2021 at 15:14, Number9 said:

We got dumped out of the Premier League because of the way we played. Keep realistic. 

We ‘dumped’ out of the PL because our recruitment was a million miles short of adequate. 

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