India v England

[Van wink 2,994]

15 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Glad that excressence is out of the way.

No idea what excressence is Horsey, unless its some new twist on $H1TE, or maybe excrescence 😉

Have to say dispite all the pitch whinging, 49 for 0 suggests maybe we need to brush up on how to play test cricket against the Indians in India!

Edited February 25, 2021 by Van wink

[horsefly 4,297]

38 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Have to say dispite all the pitch whinging, 49 for 0 suggests maybe we need to brush up on how to play test cricket against the Indians in India!

Indian batsman schooled in the IPL decide the best way to knock off a paltry 49 runs on a dreadful pitch is simply to chance their arm. Exactly the right tactic. But let's not forget that India lost 7 wickets for 40 runs this morning. Hardly whinging to point out that 17 wickets were lost in less than a day's play, and the whole test match decided in less than two days' play. An attrocious pitch completely unfit for a genuine test match, wouldn't you say Winkie?

[Van wink 2,994]

34 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Indian batsman schooled in the IPL decide the best way to knock off a paltry 49 runs on a dreadful pitch is simply to chance their arm. Exactly the right tactic. But let's not forget that India lost 7 wickets for 40 runs this morning. Hardly whinging to point out that 17 wickets were lost in less than a day's play, and the whole test match decided in less than two days' play. An attrocious pitch completely unfit for a genuine test match, wouldn't you say Winkie?

Terrible pitch for a test match Horsey, have to agree on that, but of course you have to play to the conditions. Maybe England should have been a lot more adventurous in their second innings, if they had managed to put a bit of pressure on the Indian batsman to get a score then things wouldn't have been so easy for them, might have at least gone into day 3 😀

Edited February 25, 2021 by Van wink

[Van wink 2,994]

7 hours ago, horsefly said:

Indian batsman schooled in the IPL decide the best way to knock off a paltry 49 runs on a dreadful pitch is simply to chance their arm. Exactly the right tactic. But let's not forget that India lost 7 wickets for 40 runs this morning. Hardly whinging to point out that 17 wickets were lost in less than a day's play, and the whole test match decided in less than two days' play. An attrocious pitch completely unfit for a genuine test match, wouldn't you say Winkie?

Atherton speaks wisely here Horsey

"This is India, where the ball spins, so find a way to deal with it. Few balls misbehaved alarmingly and India waltzed to victory in the final session of the day, with Rohit Sharma finishing the game emphatically with a six. They didn’t look too inconvenienced."

 

[horsefly 4,297]

59 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Atherton speaks wisely here Horsey

"This is India, where the ball spins, so find a way to deal with it. Few balls misbehaved alarmingly and India waltzed to victory in the final session of the day, with Rohit Sharma finishing the game emphatically with a six. They didn’t look too inconvenienced."

 

Well Winkie, plenty of other pundits think very much otherwise: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/cricket/joe-root-claims-fans-robbed-as-michael-vaughan-rages-at-poor-india-vs-england-pitch/ar-BB1e1hxl?ocid=msedgntp

Other cricket pundits across the world were more forceful and direct with their views on the pitch with former skipper Michael Vaughan branding it 'sh**e' on social media.

 

Former England batsman Mark Butcher commentated on the first two Tests at the ground, but back in the UK and working for Talksport he was left shaking his head at how the surfaces had evolved.

“That is a poor pitch,” Butcher said. “Objectively, regardless of the result that is a poor pitch as too was the pitch in Chennai.

“I don't care who won or lost. Even if England had won both matches, they are still poor pitches.”

Even Mickey Arthur, head coach of the Sri Lankan team, who played England before India and love nothing more than spinning surfaces such as those prepared in Galle, was stunned at how extreme the conditions were.

“Game over on day 2!” Arthur tweeted. “Test cricket is a test between the skills of players mentally, physically and technically and when it is so much in favour of one skill it loses its appeal.”

“It's the pitch,” said Cook. “Joe Root is a decent bowler but he averages 40 in Test cricket. That is his level and he's taken 5-8.

“A fair contest between bat and ball? It's not”

How many test matches have there been that ended before the completion of two days' play? For whatever reason Athurton seems to have decided to continue pushing the line that the pitches are not a real problem despite the obvious evidence. I suspect it has more to do with him trying to distinguish himself as a journalist different from his colleagues rather than any interest in pointing out what is all too plain to see. 

I doubt the man with an undistinguished test batting ave of 37 would have fared too well himself on the last two pitches. To state the banal and obvious, "This is India, where the ball spins, so find a way to deal with it." adds precisely nothing to the debate. Why you think that constitutes "wisdom" I really can't fathom. I might be more impressed if he had anything to say about just how a batsman is supposed to deal with a pitch that sees the ball turn at right-angles on one delivery then go straight on with the next. But I suspect a man with his very mediocre batting history will have little constructive to say in that regard.

I think I'll stick with Vaughan's assessment of the pitch over Athurton's, just as I would stick with Vaughan's batting over Athurton's. Similarly, I'll stick with England's all-time record run scorer's assesment; "It's the pitch" said Sir Al.

Edited February 26, 2021 by horsefly

[Van wink 2,994]

8 hours ago, horsefly said:

Well Winkie, plenty of other pundits think very much otherwise: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/cricket/joe-root-claims-fans-robbed-as-michael-vaughan-rages-at-poor-india-vs-england-pitch/ar-BB1e1hxl?ocid=msedgntp

Other cricket pundits across the world were more forceful and direct with their views on the pitch with former skipper Michael Vaughan branding it 'sh**e' on social media.

 

Former England batsman Mark Butcher commentated on the first two Tests at the ground, but back in the UK and working for Talksport he was left shaking his head at how the surfaces had evolved.

“That is a poor pitch,” Butcher said. “Objectively, regardless of the result that is a poor pitch as too was the pitch in Chennai.

“I don't care who won or lost. Even if England had won both matches, they are still poor pitches.”

Even Mickey Arthur, head coach of the Sri Lankan team, who played England before India and love nothing more than spinning surfaces such as those prepared in Galle, was stunned at how extreme the conditions were.

“Game over on day 2!” Arthur tweeted. “Test cricket is a test between the skills of players mentally, physically and technically and when it is so much in favour of one skill it loses its appeal.”

“It's the pitch,” said Cook. “Joe Root is a decent bowler but he averages 40 in Test cricket. That is his level and he's taken 5-8.

“A fair contest between bat and ball? It's not”

How many test matches have there been that ended before the completion of two days' play? For whatever reason Athurton seems to have decided to continue pushing the line that the pitches are not a real problem despite the obvious evidence. I suspect it has more to do with him trying to distinguish himself as a journalist different from his colleagues rather than any interest in pointing out what is all too plain to see. 

I doubt the man with an undistinguished test batting ave of 37 would have fared too well himself on the last two pitches. To state the banal and obvious, "This is India, where the ball spins, so find a way to deal with it." adds precisely nothing to the debate. Why you think that constitutes "wisdom" I really can't fathom. I might be more impressed if he had anything to say about just how a batsman is supposed to deal with a pitch that sees the ball turn at right-angles on one delivery then go straight on with the next. But I suspect a man with his very mediocre batting history will have little constructive to say in that regard.

I think I'll stick with Vaughan's assessment of the pitch over Athurton's, just as I would stick with Vaughan's batting over Athurton's. Similarly, I'll stick with England's all-time record run scorer's assesment; "It's the pitch" said Sir Al.

Good post Horsey with lots of good quotes which I like. I don’t think we are really disagreeing here, let me explain 😉

As said above I agree that it was a terrible pitch for a test match, but I do believe that England could have got their selection better for this game but more importantly played the conditions better. Nevertheless and I repeat I fully agree that the pitch was not good enough for a test match👍

[horsefly 4,297]

2 hours ago, Van wink said:

Good post Horsey with lots of good quotes which I like. I don’t think we are really disagreeing here, let me explain 😉

As said above I agree that it was a terrible pitch for a test match, but I do believe that England could have got their selection better for this game but more importantly played the conditions better. Nevertheless and I repeat I fully agree that the pitch was not good enough for a test match👍

Indeed Winkie! I was somewhat bemused myself when we went into the game with only one front-line spinner. Frankly, however, I'm not sure they could have played the conditions much better given the attrocious nature of the pitch. It seems the only plausible possibility in such circumstances is to throw caution to the wind and just go for it in the knowledege that the next ball is likely to have your wicket marked on it anyway (what one might appropriately call the "lottery option"). It shouldn't be much of a suprise, however, that Indian players, brought up on spinning wickets and schooled in IPL cricket, are much better at the lottery option than we are. I do also feel obliged to add, however, that it does sadden me that the lottery option should ever be considered the best option on day one and day two of a Test Match, indeed very sad that it should be an option at all. It's the sort of option that belongs to the death throes of a Test Match, then it truly does have a potentially exciting part to play in a proper Test Match contest

Edited February 26, 2021 by horsefly

[Van wink 2,994]

Yeh a day five pitch at best. Interesting that a good few of our guys were out to a straight ball, not schooled in the dark arts in the same way as our Indian friends. Of course we do prepare wickets to suit our game when we have a home series, but not quite in such a blatant way.

[horsefly 4,297]

2 hours ago, Van wink said:

Yeh a day five pitch at best. Interesting that a good few of our guys were out to a straight ball, not schooled in the dark arts in the same way as our Indian friends. Of course we do prepare wickets to suit our game when we have a home series, but not quite in such a blatant way.

When the ball is spinning at right-angles virtually every delivery it's often the straight one that provides the killer blow.

Edited February 26, 2021 by horsefly

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,187]

I remember hearing Shane Warne describing a dismissal of Ian Bell, years after the event 

Warnie said he gave the ball a bloody great rip, with the intention of getting some big turn. Bell saw this and anticipated it. 

The ball didn't turn a millimetre...

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

I remember hearing Shane Warne describing a dismissal of Ian Bell, years after the event 

Warnie said he gave the ball a bloody great rip, with the intention of getting some big turn. Bell saw this and anticipated it. 

The ball didn't turn a millimetre...

Shouldn’t  really get out by a straight slow ball, move to the pitch, use your feet, the one that turns ain’t gong to bowl you, easier said than done though.

[horsefly 4,297]

21 hours ago, Van wink said:

Shouldn’t  really get out by a straight slow ball, move to the pitch, use your feet, the one that turns ain’t gong to bowl you, easier said than done though.

Would have been sound advice prior to DRS Winkie. Often leads to an LBW decision these days.

[Herman 9,754]

Indian groundsmen trying out their new expensive kit.

 

[horsefly 4,297]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

Indian groundsmen trying out their new expensive kit.

 

I think that's their light roller

[horsefly 4,297]

Can't say I'm convinced by our bowling line-up. Stokes is going to have to improve radically on his tour so far if this is going to pay off.

[Van wink 2,994]

Should have been an excellent toss to win, just maybe if we can get to 200, which is a big if, it may transpire to be a good score, hopefully we have bowlers who can exploit the wicket on the last day......which hopefully wont be day 3 !!

[horsefly 4,297]

Well at least that looked like a first-day pitch; no dust-storms at the pitch of every ball like last time. Must be that new light roller that Herman posted a pic of.

[Aggy 754]

Just think we are (and probably have been for a while) missing one or two real quality batsmen.

Looking at ESPN’s averages for players who have been in the squads at some point in the last two years, Root (49),  Stokes (37) and Crawley (35.7) are the only three to have career averages over 35 in tests.

India and New Zealand have got nine, the Aussies seven, Pakistan seven, South Africa six, Sri Lanka five, Bangladesh five, West Indies four. And the first five have at least three or four averaging in the 40s. 

Bowling wise our spinners aren’t in the same league as India, but outside of the Indian subcontinent, I’d fancy our pace attack over most.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Aggy

[horsefly 4,297]

42 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Just think we are (and probably have been for a while) missing one or two real quality batsmen.

Looking at ESPN’s averages for players who have been in the squads at some point in the last two years, Root (49),  Stokes (37) and Crawley (35.7) are the only three to have career averages over 35 in tests.

India and New Zealand have got nine, the Aussies seven, Pakistan seven, South Africa six, Sri Lanka five, Bangladesh five, West Indies four. And the first five have at least three or four averaging in the 40s. 

Bowling wise our spinners aren’t in the same league as India, but outside of the Indian subcontinent, I’d fancy our pace attack over most.

That's right! For me it's the top three that is the real issue. Crawley looks like he will be good and worth perservering with, but the other two positions remain an issue. We've never come close to an adequate replacement for Trott at number 3 (although that might be where Crawley ends up). It's a bit hard to judge the players from the results of this tour because of the poor pitches, so I guess Lawrence and Sibley will need to be given a decent run to show whether they are capable of turning their definite potential into actual consistently good performance. 

[Aggy 754]

23 minutes ago, horsefly said:

That's right! For me it's the top three that is the real issue. Crawley looks like he will be good and worth perservering with, but the other two positions remain an issue. We've never come close to an adequate replacement for Trott at number 3 (although that might be where Crawley ends up). It's a bit hard to judge the players from the results of this tour because of the poor pitches, so I guess Lawrence and Sibley will need to be given a decent run to show whether they are capable of turning their definite potential into actual consistently good performance. 

Yes would agree. Lawrence looks alright down the order and has only just turned 23. Crawley also looks like he might be alright, still also young but his first class average isn’t great for a top order batsman. They should both be given a run though.

Sibley for me has had his chances, not far off 26, played 17 tests, steady but not amazing first class average as well, just seems to me to be steady at best. Not that I think we’ve got shed loads of world class openers in the wings - as evidenced by Burns being the main alternative.

Quite a fan of Pope in the middle order too, although that might be because I have the International Cricket Captain app on my iPad and he’s just become England’s all time top test match run scorer....Real life first class average of 51 though so he can bat.

[horsefly 4,297]

Great start to the day. And what a beauty from Stokes, Kohli out for a duck!!!!

[horsefly 4,297]

Who else! Jimmy Jimmy!!

[king canary 7,603]

Looks like we could have an actual proper match on our hands here. If we can get them all out for under 220 then game on.

[Van wink 2,994]

Best toss we have won in a long time, really need to take advantage of it.

[horsefly 4,297]

Crap! Stokes in the field clutching his shoulder in pain. If he can't bowl we're down to one seamer, game over.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

How about training for pitches that are dry dusty and not as flat as we would like it, be prepared for everything, maybe the SAS could do it for us, they have got lot of experience of training people in all sorts of conditions.

My suggestions would be to start with Norfolk pea shingle, rolled into a flat clay surface and proceed to 20mm gravel size, that should do it. Howzat...😉

[horsefly 4,297]

That was the last pitch I think

[Van wink 2,994]

Load of old Pant's

[horsefly 4,297]

No blaming the pitch this time alas!

[BroadstairsR 2,159]

Abject, awful back to the bad old days when everybody thumped us and we had bottom place in international status. Let's hope, and remembering Sri Lanka, that it's a temporary thing.

We seem to be back to the bad old days of curious selection as well. For the last test selection was just wrong. For this, ridiculous.

Since when has Ed Smith been I/C selections? That might have some bearing, or might not. He talked himself up for an England batting place some years ago now and was even seen as the next best thing ever, but his impact was ephemeral, whereby he seems establishment by contrast.   

Despite its virtue and possible necessity, rotation has worked more against the team and individuals than it has for them. It might not be normal times but this doesn't mean that the glaringly obvious need be ignored.

When will they learn that it is as much mental strength as technique that is needed to make a successful test batsman? We seem to have a growing list of top order batters: Crawley, Denly, Sibley, Burns, Lawrence, Pope who show decent technique but are weak in the head when up against it. None has the fortitude of a Collingwood, a man possibly of lesser talent.

They are all capable of the occasional decent innings, in fact they seem to take turns in producing one, but none of them is consistent. None instantly resonates as a test batsmen for England in the way that the likes of  Thorpe, Cook, Strauss, Trott or Root and others have done in recent times.

Of them all Burns seems capable of being able to pile up a decent score on a regular basis, but he's been discarded for now. Or is it Denly, it's quite easy to lose track, they come and they go? 

I hope Joe Root is given a break from the 20/20 series and even the ODIs (as a batsman.) He needs it for the Australians as much as  we need Morgan's golden touch in these games, against the rampant Indians, in order to regain face.

Of all the test countries India is the one I least mind losing to. What great, lovely and enthusiastic persons they always produce.

Edited March 6, 2021 by BroadstairsR