Swansea away 5.2.21 NOT on Ifollow

[FenwayFrank 2,456]

3 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

To no one in particular.....

Til, message for you 

[Greavsy 2,412]

1 minute ago, FenwayFrank said:

Til, message for you 

Hilarious! as always! 

[FenwayFrank 2,456]

5 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Let he who is without sin( and not just this season) cast the first stone.

Or go home and stop looking for someone to throw stones at...

 

[Greavsy 2,412]

2 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

 

Always had you down as a bit of a Woderick FF! 

So what are your views on streaming? 

[hogesar 9,618]

45 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

To no one in particular.....

Let he who is without sin( and not just this season) cast the first stone.

Or go home and stop looking for someone to throw stones at.....maybe you are already at home for too long which is not conducive to empathy. 

If someone has no intention of paying then they won't.  No amount of moral high horse posturing will change that. 

Life is too short. 

Dont take anything other than Love and Health too seriously..... both can slip through your fingers if you dont look after them.

Peace.

I wouldn't expect my morals to have an effect on anyone else and nor should it, so you're right in practice.

Its just important that people who make decisions based on what they read on the Internet understand the true legalities before they do so.

[jaberry2 550]

On my ifollow the worst thing was, away audio was not available, so I had to listen to bl**dy welsh commentators. 

For me I would stick to pretty much same team and show some confidence in them to get out of this mid season rut. With players like Hernadez/Dowell getting more and more minutes im hoping players of this ilk can find form to help with the promotion push, sooner rather than later.

Buendia back next game as well.

[TIL 1010 4,722]

2 hours ago, Bill said:

I know how they feel

 

[Ian 1,129]

I accept there is a big gray area when watching streams of content that have no legal method of viewing them in the UK, but I don't really understand the point of trying to split hairs with regards to the current iFollow broadcasts of our games.

Whether it is demonstrably illegal or not is surely irrelevant, in my mind it is morally wrong to watch if there is a legal and affordable way of doing so.

If someone wants to carry on and watch such streams, particularly if they could comfortably afford to pay; then that is their personal decision to live with.

Trying to justify it by basically taking the "nobody gets prosecuted for watching defence" seems a little silly. Suggesting it's okay as the club don't see a direct proportion of each purchase strikes me as someone who recognises it's probably not right but is trying to justify it to themselves.

There are all sorts of commercial impacts to legitimate viewing figures - e.g. the club being able to negotiate a better contract whenever they choose to renew. At an even more basic level, if everyone chose to watch an illegal stream then there would simply not be a service to watch as commercial viability is going to be next to nothing if costs are not covered.

Basically, if you want to watch a naughty stream of a Norwich match rather than pay the asking price, that is your decision. But let's not try and hide behind an argument which is effectively "here's an obscure reference which proves it is not illegal". Morally I can't see there is any justification for illegally streaming a match you would purchase legitimately if there were no other options.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Ian

[TIL 1010 4,722]

3 hours ago, Greavsy said:

Always had you down as a bit of a Woderick FF! 

So what are your views on streaming? 

FF, message for you.

[Greavsy 2,412]

2 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

FF, message for you.

I think he's lurking in semi stealth mode again Tilly 

[hogesar 9,618]

4 hours ago, Ian said:

I accept there is a big gray area when watching streams of content that have no legal method of viewing them in the UK, but I don't really understand the point of trying to split hairs with regards to the current iFollow broadcasts of our games.

Whether it is demonstrably illegal or not is surely irrelevant, in my mind it is morally wrong to watch if there is a legal and affordable way of doing so.

If someone wants to carry on and watch such streams, particularly if they could comfortably afford to pay; then that is their personal decision to live with.

Trying to justify it by basically taking the "nobody gets prosecuted for watching defence" seems a little silly. Suggesting it's okay as the club don't see a direct proportion of each purchase strikes me as someone who recognises it's probably not right but is trying to justify it to themselves.

There are all sorts of commercial impacts to legitimate viewing figures - e.g. the club being able to negotiate a better contract whenever they choose to renew. At an even more basic level, if everyone chose to watch an illegal stream then there would simply not be a service to watch as commercial viability is going to be next to nothing if costs are not covered.

Basically, if you want to watch a naughty stream of a Norwich match rather than pay the asking price, that is your decision. But let's not try and hide behind an argument which is effectively "here's an obscure reference which proves it is not illegal". Morally I can't see there is any justification for illegally streaming a match you would purchase legitimately if there were no other options.

Good post Ian.

[king canary 7,578]

17 hours ago, Ian said:

I accept there is a big gray area when watching streams of content that have no legal method of viewing them in the UK, but I don't really understand the point of trying to split hairs with regards to the current iFollow broadcasts of our games.

Whether it is demonstrably illegal or not is surely irrelevant, in my mind it is morally wrong to watch if there is a legal and affordable way of doing so.

If someone wants to carry on and watch such streams, particularly if they could comfortably afford to pay; then that is their personal decision to live with.

Trying to justify it by basically taking the "nobody gets prosecuted for watching defence" seems a little silly. Suggesting it's okay as the club don't see a direct proportion of each purchase strikes me as someone who recognises it's probably not right but is trying to justify it to themselves.

There are all sorts of commercial impacts to legitimate viewing figures - e.g. the club being able to negotiate a better contract whenever they choose to renew. At an even more basic level, if everyone chose to watch an illegal stream then there would simply not be a service to watch as commercial viability is going to be next to nothing if costs are not covered.

Basically, if you want to watch a naughty stream of a Norwich match rather than pay the asking price, that is your decision. But let's not try and hide behind an argument which is effectively "here's an obscure reference which proves it is not illegal". Morally I can't see there is any justification for illegally streaming a match you would purchase legitimately if there were no other options.

Spot on.

However if you ever try and suggest the possibility of a moral argument you either get told to stop being 'high and mighty' or 'virtue signaling.'

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

17 hours ago, Ian said:

I accept there is a big gray area when watching streams of content that have no legal method of viewing them in the UK, but I don't really understand the point of trying to split hairs with regards to the current iFollow broadcasts of our games.

Whether it is demonstrably illegal or not is surely irrelevant, in my mind it is morally wrong to watch if there is a legal and affordable way of doing so.

If someone wants to carry on and watch such streams, particularly if they could comfortably afford to pay; then that is their personal decision to live with.

Trying to justify it by basically taking the "nobody gets prosecuted for watching defence" seems a little silly. Suggesting it's okay as the club don't see a direct proportion of each purchase strikes me as someone who recognises it's probably not right but is trying to justify it to themselves.

There are all sorts of commercial impacts to legitimate viewing figures - e.g. the club being able to negotiate a better contract whenever they choose to renew. At an even more basic level, if everyone chose to watch an illegal stream then there would simply not be a service to watch as commercial viability is going to be next to nothing if costs are not covered.

Basically, if you want to watch a naughty stream of a Norwich match rather than pay the asking price, that is your decision. But let's not try and hide behind an argument which is effectively "here's an obscure reference which proves it is not illegal". Morally I can't see there is any justification for illegally streaming a match you would purchase legitimately if there were no other options.

OK Ian, I would like to respond to your post without involving the tennis match we have had so far.

You use the word moral. A very diverse word depending on your religion, if any, race, politics etc. For instance, Dominic Cummings.

Obviously I believe I am correct about the legalities of this argument. But you believe its a grey area. So your view, is that I am morally wrong to view a stream. Fair enough, that is fine by me as there is no right or wrong to morals, just differences.

Several months ago, there was a large debate about the club furloughing its non football staff but still paying the playing and coaching staff their full salary.

I was one who said I thought it was immoral while others said it was a contractual matter, in other words, a legal matter. They said that the club was obliged to pay the players and was legally entitled to furlough the non playing staff.

So accepting that I believe it is not illegal to casually watch a stream and believe I have opinions that back up that belief, my assertion at the time that the club was morally wrong with its attitude is no different to the situation we find ourselves now.

I used to watch iFollow two seasons ago, illegally I am told, even though I was paying £5, the company knew I was using a VPN and accepting my money and the club was benefitting.

This season it has doubled. Why, when more will be using it? I believe morally, it stinks. So I decided to watch streams this season.

I don't share the love in with the club that some others do. Yes, I love NCFC as an entity, and have followed since I was 5 and allowed to go by my parents when I was 9.

I have seen countless ups and downs and comings and goings. No doubt some will say I will be virtue signalling if I list where and when I have watched the team play so I won't bother. Funny thing that, I won't do something because I'm concerned some numpties who don't know me, might insult me.

But while I like our current owners and appreciate what they have done, I don't worship them. I believe they have made many mistakes and enjoyed a lot of success and of course, luck.

I enjoyed what was happening under Watling, South and yes, Chase. I would enjoy what happens with any future owners. It is the club that matters and what they give to me. If we have a multi billionaire buy us out, it won't make any difference to how I feel about the club. Its an icon for everyone. And the current owners would be confined to history.

Its what an individual gets out of the club that matters. And someone who moans after a defeat is no worse than someone who berates them and thinks the team were unlucky.

So I am fine with anyones judgement on my moral stance in this matter. Its subjective. 

 

[Greavsy 2,412]

But watching a streamed football match that you haven't paid the carrier for is illegal. Despite anyones views / morals etc, that's the simple fact. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

14 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

But watching a streamed football match that you haven't paid the carrier for is illegal. Despite anyones views / morals etc, that's the simple fact. 

Greavsy, I am not getting involved in this again. There is plenty of legal opinion to say you are wrong and I am right. We are past that.

I have just responded to Ian's calm post in which we discussed the moral issue.

[Greavsy 2,412]

Still illegal though KGD, that's the point.

Moral issues are totally separate to legal ones. 

I've seen more opinion here to confirm its illegal,  although I knew that before anyways. I wish it wasn't the case as I'd love to watch matches without having to pay, but unfortunately life isn't like that. 

[hogesar 9,618]

5 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

Still illegal though KGD, that's the point.

Moral issues are totally separate to legal ones. 

I've seen more opinion here to confirm its illegal,  although I knew that before anyways. I wish it wasn't the case as I'd love to watch matches without having to pay, but unfortunately life isn't like that. 

Of course you're right, hopefully the huge amount of factual evidence from reliable sources posted on this thread means that those who are unclear will be after reading. I don't think anything is going to change KG's mind, which is fine as long as others don't get sucked into getting it wrong.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

21 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

Still illegal though KGD, that's the point.

Moral issues are totally separate to legal ones. 

I've seen more opinion here to confirm its illegal,  although I knew that before anyways. I wish it wasn't the case as I'd love to watch matches without having to pay, but unfortunately life isn't like that. 

There has been no court cases about non subscribing streaming only Torrent suppliers.

So we are left with legal opinion. More doesn't make a diffetrence. We don't know who asked for the opinion. Its like Trip Advisor in that respect. We can argue forever about it. We both choose what we prefer. 

I have made my case about morality in response to Ians post. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by keelansgrandad

[Greavsy 2,412]

18 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

 We both choose what we prefer

I would prefer to be able to watch, legally, for free, but the law is that I can't, so I dont.

It is legally wrong, and therefore morally wrong by default in this instance.

 

[The Bristol Nest 513]

Is Soccer24hd.com illegal? 

I just want facts.🙂

Edited February 9, 2021 by The Bristol Nest

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Greavsy said:

I would prefer to be able to watch, legally, for free, but the law is that I can't, so I dont.

It is legally wrong, and therefore morally wrong by default in this instance.

 

Its no use me posting it isn't illegal and you saying it is. I know the Australian Open is on but this isn't tennis.

And it is no use discussing morals when I believe the club is lacking in them. And no doubt you will me the club has done nothing wrong.

 

[Haus 259]

1 hour ago, Greavsy said:

I would prefer to be able to watch, legally, for free, but the law is that I can't, so I dont.

It is legally wrong, and therefore morally wrong by default in this instance.

 

I mean, loads of things are 'illegal' 

Singing happy birthday is illegal as its copyrighted.  

Using a username that isnt your name online is 'illegal'

Being intoxicated in a public place, 

Selling things on ebay without declaring it for tax purposes.

Picking up a stone on the beach and taking it home,

Dressing in a police outfit for fancy dress

Paying with contactless on your phone at a drive thru without switching your engine off

going 1mph over the speedlimit. 

 

 

[Greavsy 2,412]

But It IS illegal, and no matter how many times you say it isnt, it doesn't alter the fact of he matter. Despite what you want to believe. As Ive said before, I wish it wasnt, as id love to watch my team, for free, as oftern as possible, but that isnt possible.

Logic states too - if everyone watched a stream and  no one subscribed to the suppliers, there would be no stream to watch. SKY / BT etc dont put it on for free! 

Re the club, Yes I did disagree with them (and all other clubs who did likewise) furloughing the staff. That was out of order. 

I have previously posted on here some of my differences with the club, however I have also contacted the club directly, and had some very open, honest and interesting exchanges with people there. Some parts we have agreed on, others we havent, and we both respect each others point of view. However they have always been approachable, and welcomed  my views, for which ive been grateful. They have also given further insight to their decision making, rather than how things have been portrayed in  the media. 

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Its no use me posting it isn't illegal and you saying it is. I know the Australian Open is on but this isn't tennis.

And it is no use discussing morals when I believe the club is lacking in them. And no doubt you will me the club has done nothing wrong.

 

 

[Greavsy 2,412]

6 minutes ago, Haus said:

I mean, loads of things are 'illegal' 

Singing happy birthday is illegal as its copyrighted.  

Using a username that isnt your name online is 'illegal'

Being intoxicated in a public place, 

Selling things on ebay without declaring it for tax purposes.

Picking up a stone on the beach and taking it home,

Dressing in a police outfit for fancy dress

Paying with contactless on your phone at a drive thru without switching your engine off

going 1mph over the speedlimit. 

 

 

And your point ?

[Haus 259]

2 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

And your point ?

My point is, some things aren't as important, not all illegality is the same, 

We all break the law at some point and some of the hyperbole on here is ridiculous. 

[Greavsy 2,412]

If only we could all be selective over which laws we care to abide by! 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

15 minutes ago, The Bristol Nest said:

Is Soccer24hd.com illegal? 

I just want facts.🙂

The only fact I can give that is indisputable is that you will not he prosecuted for watching it. You will be warned at worst.

Greavsy and Hogesar will tell you it is illegal to use that stream. Warning banners will tell you it is illegal. And some legal opinion will tell you it is illegal.

However, much legal opinion will tell you it isn't illegal. If it was, then the US would not now trying to get a bill through Congress to make using streams illegal and a felony.

And if it is illegal, and its been around since we were in League One, why has there not been a successful case taken?

A separate fact is, those who want it to be illegal will say it is. If becomes illegal I will stop. 

Then I might ask the club, why did they sell me a shirt at the start of the season for £50 and are now selling it for £35. The season only just halfway over.

 

 

 

[Greavsy 2,412]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

Then I might ask the club, why did they sell me a shirt at the start of the season for £50 and are now selling it for £35. The season only just halfway over.

 

 

 

Seriously? 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Just now, Greavsy said:

If only we could all be selective over which laws we care to abide by! 

 

Most people are. Never bought something you know was probably stolen? This list is endless. That is why I bothered posting about morals.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Just now, Greavsy said:

Seriously? 

Yes. They could have waited until the end of the season.