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Cantwell responds to darnell fisher

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2 hours ago, Felixfan said:

That was the best example of good old fashioned man to man marking I have seen for years. 

I agree. You don't usually see teams adopting it nowadays, despite what some on here are claiming. Teams have often played with 5 at the back and a low block to minimise the space for TC and Emi, but none have literally assigned players to follow them around the pitch for the whole game. 

If Emi hadn't been sent off, I would like to think that their markers would have been shattered after 75 mins, by which time our subs would be able to make an impact.

Pukki, Emi, Cantwell, Aarons and Giannoulis were all taken care of so, if I was Farke, I would be looking to Vrancic, Skipp and Rupp to have a greater influence going forward.

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27 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I dont think they did much more than Derby or Brum. They just executed it better and had better players.

I also haven't denied that Warnock deserves some credit. But this whole tactical masterclass guff people have raved about on here should be saved for something better than getting a 0-0 away draw against 10 men vs a team in the same division, heck, the same half of a division as you.

They did a lot, lot more than Derby.

Derby was a freak result that saw us cut them open again and again but fail to score. They then hit us with a gut punch free kick. There was no doubt as to who the better team were and you know the Derby players were sat on the coach home amazed to have won.

We didn't manage a single shot on target that I can remember. Yes, Vrancic had a clear cut opportunity that he should have converted but that was literally it. Boro shut us down and we failed to react to it or respond. The red card arguably denied us of the chance to change after that, but the match thread was littered with calls to change it before that moment.

But I digress. I can't really remember the Birmingham game, must've been drunk, but I remember the Derby game and there is no comparison in the approaches between them and Boro.

Derby got lucky, Boro tactically outwitted us and not only stopped us scoring but prevented us getting a shot on goal and as a result, arguably deserved a point. They were lucky that a geriatric moron was reffing, but Keith Stroud has been around long enough to know to expect atrocious refereeing.

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1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I dont think they did much more than Derby or Brum. They just executed it better and had better players.

I also haven't denied that Warnock deserves some credit. But this whole tactical masterclass guff people have raved about on here should be saved for something better than getting a 0-0 away draw against 10 men vs a team in the same division, heck, the same half of a division as you.

Given that derby won and have had a bad season, I’d say Derby executed it better.

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24 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

They did a lot, lot more than Derby.

Derby was a freak result that saw us cut them open again and again but fail to score. They then hit us with a gut punch free kick. There was no doubt as to who the better team were and you know the Derby players were sat on the coach home amazed to have won.

We didn't manage a single shot on target that I can remember. Yes, Vrancic had a clear cut opportunity that he should have converted but that was literally it. Boro shut us down and we failed to react to it or respond. The red card arguably denied us of the chance to change after that, but the match thread was littered with calls to change it before that moment.

But I digress. I can't really remember the Birmingham game, must've been drunk, but I remember the Derby game and there is no comparison in the approaches between them and Boro.

Derby got lucky, Boro tactically outwitted us and not only stopped us scoring but prevented us getting a shot on goal and as a result, arguably deserved a point. They were lucky that a geriatric moron was reffing, but Keith Stroud has been around long enough to know to expect atrocious refereeing.

If I'm honest I'm trolling a little bit because you're right, we cut Derby open on countless occasions but if you look back to posts after that game it was littered with us not being good enough for playoffs, Farke not knowing what he was doing, our players being overrated. Of course like you say, it was a freak result.

For clarity, Boro deserved a point. And Warnock set them up well. But they're a team chasing playoffs that managed a 0-0 draw against ten men who weren't playing their best. That isn't tactical masterclass or anything significantly above average. We arent that good.

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If we turn up at Swansea and do a 'Boro and come away with a point I think most will on here will be happy.

As Dave Stringer used to say; you have to earn the right to play football, and we didn't do that yesterday. Some key creative players were like rabbits in headlights when faced with the physicality. 

Hope we will learn from it quickly as Millwall will be a tough gig ahead of Swansea.

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2 hours ago, hogesar said:

I dont think they did much more than Derby or Brum. They just executed it better and had better players.

I also haven't denied that Warnock deserves some credit. But this whole tactical masterclass guff people have raved about on here should be saved for something better than getting a 0-0 away draw against 10 men vs a team in the same division, heck, the same half of a division as you.

👍 this. 

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7 hours ago, Jersey Canary said:

Don’t you think Millwall and other teams will man mark us to death now they’ve seen the success of Boro? 

Their man marking of buendia and cantwell allowed Vrancic the time and space to waltz through their defence and should have scored.

Other players have got to take advantage of the space 

We also need to take advantage of the close marking by winning free kicks and getting their players booked.

 

 

 

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It’s just a sign of how amazing our coaching team have done over three years that teams have to resort to this approach of simply trying to stop us. That wasn’t the case when Farke and Webber came in. It wasn’t even the case two years ago. 
 

we’ve created a gulf in quality if play which means that teams have to do this to try to scrape a point.

It’s a vindication of Farke’s methods, not a weakness of them,

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On another day Vrancic would have buried his chance, we'd all be praising the team for seeing out a 1-0 win. Sadly it wasn't to be and Middlesbrough played well enough to do what most teams haven't been able to and snuff us out. The truth is that appeared to want it just that little bit more. But hey, it happens, the important thing is we didn't lose given we played the last third with ten men

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14 hours ago, hogesar said:

If I'm honest I'm trolling a little bit because you're right, we cut Derby open on countless occasions but if you look back to posts after that game it was littered with us not being good enough for playoffs, Farke not knowing what he was doing, our players being overrated. Of course like you say, it was a freak result.

For clarity, Boro deserved a point. And Warnock set them up well. But they're a team chasing playoffs that managed a 0-0 draw against ten men who weren't playing their best. That isn't tactical masterclass or anything significantly above average. We arent that good.

Spot on. 

If you were away from home and at a loose end and Middlesbrough were playing across the road, would you pay £30 to watch them? 

I've been watching Norwich for 50 years but I wouldn't be keen to watch us play like that. In fact if everyone played like that the tv companies wouldn't pay. 

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Aye, but don't forget that they'd had less time to prepare and were coming off getting countered to death by Rotherham, so Warnock knew he had to change things around and also to get a reaction out of his players. Fair play to him, he got that and then some.

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Anyone else a bit concerned and how easily Fisher nullified Cantwell? This is a guy who couldn’t get in Preston’s team and was picked up a few days earlier for £300k. Cantwell is allegedly a £20m plus player. Given Fisher’s success, I expect Todd may well experience this level of attention, a lot more going forward, from better players than Fisher.

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9 minutes ago, Clint said:

Anyone else a bit concerned and how easily Fisher nullified Cantwell? This is a guy who couldn’t get in Preston’s team and was picked up a few days earlier for £300k. Cantwell is allegedly a £20m plus player. Given Fisher’s success, I expect Todd may well experience this level of attention, a lot more going forward, from better players than Fisher.

Pontus Kaamark nullified Juninho a few times IIRC back in the day. Fisher just might be a very good man-marker.

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17 hours ago, hogesar said:

If I'm honest I'm trolling a little bit because you're right, we cut Derby open on countless occasions but if you look back to posts after that game it was littered with us not being good enough for playoffs, Farke not knowing what he was doing, our players being overrated. Of course like you say, it was a freak result.

For clarity, Boro deserved a point. And Warnock set them up well. But they're a team chasing playoffs that managed a 0-0 draw against ten men who weren't playing their best. That isn't tactical masterclass or anything significantly above average. We arent that good.

Aren't we though? We're top of the Championship having not really reached top gear in more than two or three matches. We've players who have attracted firm interest from Barcelona and Arsenal (Aarons, Buendia) and rumoured interest from Liverpool and Man Utd (Cantwell, Pukki) and we have a Dutch international for a goalkeeper and a 20 year old touted as a future Tottenham Hotspur captain. In the context of the Championship, we are a top, top side.

I'm not going to sh*t the bed about a point at home against a team not only chasing for playoffs, but also a team at the top end of the league in terms of financial resources, but with the resources on the pitch at our disposal, we should never go 90 minutes without working a goalkeeper. If we do, something has gone wrong. And what I think went wrong on Saturday was a failure to react to Warnock's tactics. Masterclass is overstepping the mark, but if you are giving the coaches marks out of ten for Saturday like the local rag gives to the players, I'm scoring Warnock 9 and Farke 6.

That's only on the day, I hasten to add. Farke is patently a better coach and manager than Colin and I wouldn't swap the two even if Warnock came with all the tea in China. But on Saturday, the whiney old b*stard had Farke's number.

Edited by canarydan23
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1 hour ago, Clint said:

Anyone else a bit concerned and how easily Fisher nullified Cantwell? This is a guy who couldn’t get in Preston’s team and was picked up a few days earlier for £300k. Cantwell is allegedly a £20m plus player. Given Fisher’s success, I expect Todd may well experience this level of attention, a lot more going forward, from better players than Fisher.

Not at all. Anyone remember that Robbie Savage claim a few years back? He man-marked Gianfranco Zola out of a game and dominated Michael Essien one time. That doesn't mean Savage was amazing or that Zola and Essien were not absolute quality. Great players have bad games, bad players have great games.

Closer to home, I remember in our Worthington title season when West Brom came to Carrow Road, I've no idea how I remember this so clearly but can't remember last weekend, but they had a lad called I believe James Chambers and he was assigned to Huckerby and completely marked him out of the game. I think it was the first time that season I'd watched a match with Hux and he did pretty much nothing. In fact, thinking back it was remarkably similar to Boro; we were top of the table, at home against a fellow promotion-chaser and couldn't create a great deal and ended up having to settle for a point.  It didn't make Huckerby rubbish, nor did it make James Chambers (who Google has just told me went on to spent the majority of the rest of his career at Doncaster and Walsall) a superstar. It's just that Chambers was on it and Huckerby wasn't, on that given day. Just as it was for Fisher and Cantwell on Saturday.

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On 31/01/2021 at 10:55, Mason 47 said:

Now down to Farke to find a counteraction to this tactic.

Not all teams will be as effective with it though- it was a case of us doing what we do and seeing if their concentration lasted the distance, which it did.

As much as Warnock is irritating you have to admit he played a blinder yesterday. Effectively nullified our wide attackers, #10, attacking full backs and isolated Pukki for 98 minutes.

But the reason we didn't win was not their defence. We had loads of room to get shots away and on target but failed to do so. They were there for the taking but we were simply poor. 

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3 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Not at all. Anyone remember that Robbie Savage claim a few years back? He man-marked Gianfranco Zola out of a game and dominated Michael Essien one time. That doesn't mean Savage was amazing or that Zola and Essien were not absolute quality. Great players have bad games, bad players have great games.

Closer to home, I remember in our Worthington title season when West Brom came to Carrow Road, I've no idea how I remember this so clearly but can't remember last weekend, but they had a lad called I believe James Chambers and he was assigned to Huckerby and completely marked him out of the game. I think it was the first time that season I'd watched a match with Hux and he did pretty much nothing. In fact, thinking back it was remarkably similar to Boro; we were top of the table, at home against a fellow promotion-chaser and couldn't create a great deal and ended up having to settle for a point.  It didn't make Huckerby rubbish, nor did it make James Chambers (who Google has just told me went on to spent the majority of the rest of his career at Doncaster and Walsall) a superstar. It's just that Chambers was on it and Huckerby wasn't, on that given day. Just as it was for Fisher and Cantwell on Saturday.

Whilst I agree with this up to a point, it would have been nice to see Cantwell do more higher up the pitch to try to lose his marker. The reason teams don't do this anymore is because it leaves too much space for talented others to exploit - the fact that we didn't seems to indicate that Warnock was right in his belief that if you take Cantwell and Buendia out of our team, you nullify our attacking threat completely.

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Thought the main problem Saturday was not Warnock, but a combination of our players just didn’t turn up and Daniel not having the answers.  It’s easy to defend bad passes, poor shots and crosses, pretty much what we served up.     They defended brilliantly but when it became clear that the man marking was effective Vrancic (who unfortunately rarely produces when starting games) should (in my view) have been sacrificed for Platcheta or Hernandez with Cantwell going central... he did that anyway and Vrancic is always going to find it difficult in crowded areas with no space, but we never had any width!    Even Aaron’s was starved of any possession.    

We know the only way to break down these teams is by raising the tempo and we we’re too lethargic to respond.   
 

This is the reason why it’s useful to have a plan B.    Changing to 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 would have forced them to rethink and made us less predictable.  

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On 31/01/2021 at 13:00, cambridgeshire canary said:

Anyone who says Warnock is a bad mananger is on crack

 

Sure, he is old fashioned but is a pretty good mananger.

Yeah but his eye on the prize was cancelling us out......then whilst worrying about Saturday he goes and slips on the Rovveram Banana Skin - I'd call that bad strategy management. And he thought he could've been our Manager according to the Sky pundits - just typical Warnock arrogance. 

I don't actually have an an opinion on his manager qualities, I just find him an obnoxious dinosaur. Flawed. And they couldn't beat 10 men - even with 12 and Johnny Howson in the team 😂 

1 point from a possible 6 - hardly a success story - pass me that pipe and spoon.....

 

 

Edited by Foxy2600
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I can't believe the hyperbolic guff about man-marking and tactics. They got away with cheating because the referee was awful. No other team will get away with the same genius tactics because the first time one of them pulls our player back off the ball they will rightly get booked. Fisher could have got 5 yellow cards on Saturday but the ref apparently didn't see any of them. Running into someone every time they try to run past you is not a 'tactical masterclass'.

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Rotherham must have completed a master master class to bash the mighty boro at home 3-0, and to nullify the maestro Colin. His days are numbered, poor recent record. 

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