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TeemuVanBasten

Wilder and Sheffield United this season...

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That's why Lambert walked after the first season in the Premier League.

He knew he'd got everything he possibly could out of what was essentially a Championship quality side full of Championship standard players.

And that they'd be sussed the following season. The cracks began to appear towards the end of that Lambert Prem season.

He was faced with the ugly task of having to tear apart his side and destroy the dressing room spirit in the process, or having the embarrassment of having the season that Sheffield United are this season. It was a lose-lose situation. 

Obviously Hughton came in and did that ugly job of tearing apart the Lambert squad, and finished 11th, but could Lambert have got away with doing the same? Being disloyal to his own players, who had just finished 12th? I don't think. 

So many similarities between that Lambert team and this Wilder team I feel! 

Well, that and VIlla offering to make him stinking rich I suspect!

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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I suspect there's more truth in that last sentence than all the rest put together.

Subsequent experiences have suggested that he probably wouldn't have had the technical know how to work out the first part of your assessment.

As for loyalty, in any way shape or form, that and Paul Lambert have proven to be a contradiction of terms.

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Well I'm not prepared to let Lambert off the hook that easily.....you dont just walk out at the first sign that it might get a little tough after one season in the top league . As you rightly said , Hughton managed to get us into a mid table finish the following season, albeit with a more defensive approach aided by a few decent signings in Bassong Turner and Garrido, if Lambert wasnt able to tighten us up defensively then thats his shortcoming.

Hughton's reward for keeping us up in the premier lge for a second season was to be given a £27m transfer budget for the following season (doesnt sound much now but still was then) which was more than any other norwich manager had to spend in our history at the time...yes ,some of it was poorly spent i.e RVW ...but it could have been Lambert's to spend.. and then for each subsequent year he keeps us in the league ,he gets more money to spend to imorove the team....thats whats called 'building a team' ...not just running off at the first sight of it maybe becoming a bit tough.

....but as we've subsequently seen, the fact that he's done nothing at Villa,Wolves,Blackburn,Stoke or the Filth since walking out here ,shows that it was Culverhouse that was the real force behind that operation

...Lambert has ended up exactly where he deserves

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I thought at the time that Lambert saw himself as better than us and were lucky to have him. We were a means to an end, just as Wycombe and Colchester were.

Its largely forgotten (most likely by Lambert himself) that he was not good enough for Livingstone at the beginning of his managerial career and they won only 2 from 26 in his time there although, to be fair, they were on a bit of a hiding to nothing in the SPL at the time anyway.

There are managers that burn very brightly and very quickly for a while and everyone is all over them for that period of time-Mike Walker did so with us, Di Canio is another, Ade Bothroyd at club level, David O'Leary at Leeds (the last time they were "everyone's second team") -he was linked with jobs at Man Utd and Liverpool whilst he was doing well there, went to Villa, failed and hasn't been in the game since. 

Lambert is another. He had his lightning in the jar moment with us, courtesy of Culverhouse, Martin, Hoolahan and Holt, got together a team that had a bit of the old Wimbledon 'crazy gang' spirit about them and saw himself as more of a coach than he really was.

There'll be others. But his chance of ever managing a big club again has gone and he'll do all he can to stay put at Ipswich-unlike when he was here, when he ended up doing whatever he could to burn bridges and get out.

 

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I think he left because the Board wouldn't back him by coming up with the money for Benteke. And he had no relationship at all with the Board, in fact the Chairman disliked him so much he hadn't spoken to him for 2 years. 

But you're probably right about him seeing what was coming. Grant Holt wasn't getting any younger and he was vital to that team. 

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1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Well, that and VIlla offering to make him stinking rich I suspect!

This is the reason. The rest of it is fluff  - we finished higher the next season under Hughton . The team wasn’t falling apart . 
 

Lambert chases the coin. 

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Are Sheffield United having a bad season? I wasn't aware, don't think it has ever been mentioned on here 😉

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6 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

This is the reason. The rest of it is fluff  - we finished higher the next season under Hughton . The team wasn’t falling apart . 
 

Lambert chases the coin. 

I don't think it was purely cash- I'm not convinced he'd have stayed if we'd have offered him more money than Villa for example.

I think Teemu is right that he saw the writing on the wall and that his stock was never likely to be higher than it was then. I always found it interesting though that him and Rodgers both got promoted together, finished 11th and 12th that season but Rodgers and his much trumpeted 'philosophy' got the Liverpool job while Lambert had to settle for a relegation battle with Villa.

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7 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think it was purely cash- I'm not convinced he'd have stayed if we'd have offered him more money than Villa for example.

I think Teemu is right that he saw the writing on the wall and that his stock was never likely to be higher than it was then. I always found it interesting though that him and Rodgers both got promoted together, finished 11th and 12th that season but Rodgers and his much trumpeted 'philosophy' got the Liverpool job while Lambert had to settle for a relegation battle with Villa.

Everything that has happened since has totally vindicated Liverpool's decision. 

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2 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Everything that has happened since has totally vindicated Liverpool's decision. 

Yeah I think that is correct- only thing I'd say is Villa was an absolute career graveyard at that point. Sherwood, Garde, Di Matteo all failed there too. Bit like how Sunderland became.

I always felt Rodgers was helped by the fact he was much more media savvy. Lambert came across as a gruff, dour, not hugely exciting guy, while Rodgers always came across as smart, considered and modern. 

I'm not saying Lambert would have done much if roles had been revered but I do think Villa killed his career somewhat.

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16 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think it was purely cash- I'm not convinced he'd have stayed if we'd have offered him more money than Villa for example.

I think Teemu is right that he saw the writing on the wall and that his stock was never likely to be higher than it was then. I always found it interesting though that him and Rodgers both got promoted together, finished 11th and 12th that season but Rodgers and his much trumpeted 'philosophy' got the Liverpool job while Lambert had to settle for a relegation battle with Villa.

What writing on the wall? That we would finish higher the next season? Not disputing that Villa was a bigger job , but the idea that Lambert jumped from a sinking ship is rubbish . 
 

The OP says the team was a busted flush , that had gone as far as it could . That’s what I’m commenting on. 

Edited by Graham Paddons Beard

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1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I think he left because the Board wouldn't back him by coming up with the money for Benteke.

I actually read that Benteke had become a primary Villa target after he'd been added to their scouting database by former manager Alex McLeish! 

 

Christian Benteke was placed on Aston Villa’s scouting database by Alex McLeish, BirminghamLive can reveal.

Paul Lambert signed the Belgian striker in 2012 for £6million from Genk - but it was actually his fellow Scot McLeish who identified Benteke.

Benteke, who now plies his trade for Crystal Palace after his £30m switch to Liverpool backfired, spent three years at Villa Park and scored the goals to preserve their top flight status under Lambert and, latterly, Tim Sherwood.

 

But it wasn’t Lambert or scout Paddy Riley who pinpointed Benteke as a potential target. McLeish marked him out as one to watch shortly after he made the ill-fated move across the Second City from Birmingham City.

McLeish, now manager of Scotland, was bemused to arrive at Villa and discover the club hadn’t implemented a scouting database to keep tabs on targets from across the globe.

Benteke, who scored 49 goals in 101 appearances in claret and blue, was put forward to McLeish by scout Arthur Numan.

Numan watched Benteke regularly whilst he was playing for Genk - a club McLeish would later manage - and thought Villa could grab themselves a bargain

The decision to include Benteke’s name on the database he installed and ensure Numan and other scouts continued to watch the 6ft 4in frontman was key in the club’s decision to sign him.

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57 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think it was purely cash- I'm not convinced he'd have stayed if we'd have offered him more money than Villa for example.

I think Teemu is right that he saw the writing on the wall and that his stock was never likely to be higher than it was then. I always found it interesting though that him and Rodgers both got promoted together, finished 11th and 12th that season but Rodgers and his much trumpeted 'philosophy' got the Liverpool job while Lambert had to settle for a relegation battle with Villa.

Must hurt that Rodgers landed the Celtic job as well, surely must be a dream to Lambert now.

Not sure they'd be looking at League One for their next manager! 

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55 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

The OP says the team was a busted flush , that had gone as far as it could . That’s what I’m commenting on. 

The point is that Hughton took an axe to the squad, getting rid of big personalities like Morrison, Whitbread, Crofts, Lappin, Drury, Wilbraham, and basically bought a new back four and changed the tactics to a style that Grant Holt didn't like and which saw Hoolahan and Fox become squad players or fringe players.

Would Lambert have got away with that? Alienating his key men?

Perhaps it needed a new manager to make the necessary changes? And perhaps Wilder has put too much faith in a few players that he actually got punching well above their weight last season? That's the thread topic. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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59 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I don't doubt that what TvB has said is true, but a more simple solution would be that Villa are/were a bigger club who could offer Lambert a larger budget to build a squad and a higher wage for himself. 

The majority of managers jump when such an opportunity arises.

I mean, it may have been a "larger budget" all things considered, but it was a constantly shrinking one.

Its all good having a wage budget of £900k a week, rather than say £500k a week, but not much good when existing players are already on £950k a week, which is why he immediately created a 'bomb squad' of assorted high earning players and tried to force them out to free up space for new arrivals.

And other than Benteke, he was largely taking a punt on £2m bottom half La Liga players wasn't he?

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3 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I mean, it may have been a "larger budget" all things considered, but it was a constantly shrinking one.

Its all good having a wage budget of £900k a week, rather than say £500k a week, but not much good when existing players are already on £950k a week, which is why he immediately created a 'bomb squad' of assorted high earning players and tried to force them out to free up space for new arrivals.

And other than Benteke, he was largely taking a punt on £2m bottom half La Liga players wasn't he?

Ultimately, yes. It turned out that he joined the club around the time Lerner stopped backing them financially and the club started to decline as a result, but at the time of him joining Villa his total budget between fees and wages was still higher than he'd have got here. 

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I believe the reason Lambert left was because he’d just fallen out with McNally and when Villa enquired about him we wouldn’t let them hold talks. Did a great job for us when at Carrow Road, and done a great job for us at Portman Road

I think the reason why Sheffield United are suffering is due to the loss of Dean Henderson - did great for them in goal for them last season on loan from Manure. Not sure what things will be like for them next season, probably Wilder and some of their key players gone

Edited by HazzaJet

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With Newcastle and Brighton struggling. it's gradually got much closer at the bottom.

If United did survive it would be the Great Escape to smash all other Great Escapes into oblivion. It's VERY unlikely but although their fans have a dislike of us going back to that infamous match in 2017, it would be great to go back there next season. Wider has long since forgiven us for that match and the events surrounding it and has been nothing but complimentary towards us.  He and Farke have a mutual appreciation and I (for one) will be rooting for them to get more wins and see if they could pull it off.     

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On 23/01/2021 at 12:44, TeemuVanBasten said:

That's why Lambert walked after the first season in the Premier League.

He knew he'd got everything he possibly could out of what was essentially a Championship quality side full of Championship standard players.

And that they'd be sussed the following season. The cracks began to appear towards the end of that Lambert Prem season.

He was faced with the ugly task of having to tear apart his side and destroy the dressing room spirit in the process, or having the embarrassment of having the season that Sheffield United are this season. It was a lose-lose situation. 

Obviously Hughton came in and did that ugly job of tearing apart the Lambert squad, and finished 11th, but could Lambert have got away with doing the same? Being disloyal to his own players, who had just finished 12th? I don't think. 

So many similarities between that Lambert team and this Wilder team I feel! 

Well, that and VIlla offering to make him stinking rich I suspect!

To be fair to Lambert, he brought in Steve Morison and started him ahead of Holt so I don't think he would have worried about breaking up the team, I just don't think he had any desire to stay long enough to try.

And as time has shown, I don't think he would have done any better than hughton although I'm confident we wouldn't have signed rvw 

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On 23/01/2021 at 12:44, TeemuVanBasten said:

That's why Lambert walked after the first season in the Premier League.

He knew he'd got everything he possibly could out of what was essentially a Championship quality side full of Championship standard players.

And that they'd be sussed the following season. The cracks began to appear towards the end of that Lambert Prem season.

I think you're giving Lambert too much credit given his subsequent career trajectory. Suspect the situation was for more complex than this.

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40 minutes ago, Ian said:

I think you're giving Lambert too much credit given his subsequent career trajectory. Suspect the situation was for more complex than this.

Probably just money, oh look Villa are offering me double my salary.... all evidence seems to suggest that he is completely short sighted and only after his next pay day. Bet he loves these pay offs.

Wonder whether he'll manage to squeeze one more out of somebody before being considered completely unemployable, I reckon he'll manager to con one more club.

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On 23/01/2021 at 15:29, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I don't doubt that what TvB has said is true, but a more simple solution would be that Villa are/were a bigger club who could offer Lambert a larger budget to build a squad and a higher wage for himself. 

The majority of managers jump when such an opportunity arises.

this.

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The Season Lambert left, there were 3 prize jobs,  Liverpool,  Everton and Villa, Liverpool took Rodgers, Everton took the manager of Wigan and I think Lambert panicked.  Seeing the plumb jobs disappearing, he forced a move, sueing the Club in the process and his career has nosedived ever since. 

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Yup, but if he’d stayed and we’d bought Benteke for him.....

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