The longer ball style?

[sonyc 5,510]

I am wondering watching Spurs whether we:

(a) should mix and match our game more to play the kind of balls Son runs onto with Kane and others in support, and

(b) whether we are able to?

I am thinking of that fantastic diagonal run of Buendia picked up so brilliantly by McLean this  last weekend. Then the long balls played by Stiepi and Sørensen at Bristol City.

I think it's something we could do a lot more and we clearly have the technicians to do it, Pukki being good at short running bursts and Todd/Emi too.

Many times when we've had to prod around with defensive away teams at home especially, I've really wanted us to try and press the other team with longer balls.

Not, at all costs and not to lose touch with our "Farkeball" but to use other types of 'weapons' we clearly have (a nod here to Parma for this term)?

I don't think we try different game plays quite enough. Any thoughts to the contrary?

 

 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I think our goal on Saturday completely illustrated your point Sonyc. We have the players to do it. As you say, Farkeball is our bread and butter but every now and then, a bit of jam is nice.

[Hairy Canary 696]

I thought we did that a lot against Barnsley, not just for the goal. They played a high line and we caught them over and over with a long pass into space using our pace up front. Thought this was a deliberate change of style for that game almost from the off, for which DF deserves credit.

Shows we can and are prepared to play that way but it’s not going to work against teams that drop off and concede possession. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

8 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

I thought we did that a lot against Barnsley, not just for the goal. They played a high line and we caught them over and over with a long pass into space using our pace up front. Thought this was a deliberate change of style for that game almost from the off, for which DF deserves credit.

Shows we can and are prepared to play that way but it’s not going to work against teams that drop off and concede possession. 

Exactly!! Long balls in behind the defence will only work if there is space behind the defence in the first place. In most of our games this season there hasn't been!

[TheGunnShow 5,937]

Only works against teams coming out. Against teams sitting deep, that ball is not on. What you saw there was the Plan B when the other team came out to play.

[sonyc 5,510]

30 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

I thought we did that a lot against Barnsley, not just for the goal. They played a high line and we caught them over and over with a long pass into space using our pace up front. Thought this was a deliberate change of style for that game almost from the off, for which DF deserves credit.

Shows we can and are prepared to play that way but it’s not going to work against teams that drop off and concede possession. 

It's difficult of course with a deeply set opposition and because of all teams, Barnsley were trying to press. 

Yet, sometimes when teams are seeing us use the same  approach play might we need to mix it up? Or what else?

And...that diagonal run was the key for me. Barnsley were set up in defence at the time were they not? He MADE the opportunity by his run across. Kenny alluded to it immediately in his post match comments ("it was the run that made it...and it's what he can do" or words to that effect).

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by sonyc

[lake district canary 4,531]

A tactic to be used sparingly imo. It's quite good that teams think they know how to play against us and that we don't change our style that much. It makes the odd ball over the top less predictable and gives it a somewhat surprise element.....a bit like in tennis where you save certain shots, like the drop shot very occasionally, or serving 95% of your serves down the middle, making the odd one wide a surprise choice for when you want to catch your opponent off guard.

Do managers think like that? I'm sure Farke does. In a way the goal against Barnsley was that - a whole lot of short passing around for 3/4 of the match then suddenly McLean lobs a ball forward and sure enough the Barnsley defence are completely caught out.  Play too many long hopeful balls and the defence is likeky to mop them up most of the time, but used sparingly it is far more effective.

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

14 minutes ago, sonyc said:

It's difficult of course with a deeply set opposition and because of all teams, Barnsley were trying to press. 

Yet, sometimes when teams are seeing us use the same  approach play might we need to mix it up? Or what else?

And...that diagonal run was the key for me. Barnsley were set up in defence at the time were they not? He MADE the opportunity by his run across. Kenny alluded to it immediately in his post match comments ("it was the run that made it...and it's what he can do" or words to that effect).

 

It WAS a great run by Buendia and it WAS a great ball by Mclean, but the only reason it was possible is because Barnsley had such a high line and had left a lot of space BEHIND their defence. If they had been 15 yards deeper that goal would have been totally impossible. 

[sonyc 5,510]

7 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

It WAS a great run by Buendia and it WAS a great ball by Mclean, but the only reason it was possible is because Barnsley had such a high line and had left a lot of space BEHIND their defence. If they had been 15 yards deeper that goal would have been totally impossible. 

Fair enough. Point taken too.

I think the consensus is we ought not do this more because teams don't allow it, if I'm interpreting correctly, rather than it's not a good idea.

I feel this tactic serves to increase the speeds of our attack and the degree to which we become more dangerous (and not a kind of hoofball, I'm not advocating that).

Just a thought though as I was watching Spurs after seeing Liverpool's recent travails. Quite different styles and was trying to compare to us. Will go back to watching Spurs Brentford 🙂

Edited January 5, 2021 by sonyc

[Jimthechip 39]

What was promising was that the players seemed to be able to adapt the tactics throughout the game and seemed to work out Barnsley. Now if they can find the finishing touch what a side we'd be!

[Petriix 2,834]

I'm not sure quite how to respond to this thread but I'll take it at face value... 

We *do* play pretty direct *when* it is appropriate. It's all about the transition between defence and attack. Unfortunately other teams know how to play against us so they sit in deeper and attempt to pick us off on the counter attack.

Thankfully we also have the ability to create chances by shifting the ball around and waiting for a positional error or an untracked run. We do seem to spurn more than our fair share of the chances we create but, last time I checked, we do create more chances than any other team in the division.

I think there may have been a valid criticism earlier in the season that our deeper midfielders were perhaps a little slow in spotting those runs in behind and playing a few early balls over the top but, for the main part latterly, the first thought does seem to be how quickly we can feed the ball through to Pukki just as he accelerates past the last defender.

I suppose the next criticism could be that teams have also sussed this out and tend to track Pukki so someone else needs to make the run while the defenders are pulled out of position. Of course we do this too, although it does leave us exposed when the ball is lost so a balance must be struck. I'd say that, on the whole (and looking at our league position) we're doing a pretty good job; although I'd prefer it if we got a little bit better at kicking the ball into the goal.

[sonyc 5,510]

I'm glad you've taken it at face value @Petriix because I didn't post as a criticism of the team or even as such, a moan about the way we play. I enjoy watching Farke teams as much as in many other successful eras. It was a genuine footballing question and thread (albeit I asked myself whether to post before for fear it was seen as too much of a criticism). My question arose really after seeing our play in the recent Barnsley match and comparing Spurs and Liverpool styles of play (watched them both recently). I think I enjoy watching Spurs more which surprised me. And yet Liverpool are probably the better team (arguable perhaps).

A genuine question on style therefore. My son and I watched on ifollow on Saturday and I was arguing we needed to play balls over the top. We did. And I felt encouraged that we changed our ways to suit the game. Not sure if this was a half time talk or it happened naturally?

Other posters have debated our finishing, arguably a bigger subject. We do have more shots and attempts than any team in the championship. So it's not  that we don't get chances. I wondered if we might though stretch teams during games when they attack or concede possession when advancing. Often we have a more cultured pass pass pass style. Anyway just an observation. I felt when Buendia has acted from deeper as the number 10 / extra striker then we've looked the most dangerous this season.

Perhaps we may see it more in the coming games. If so, I'm looking forward. I still think there's more to come from us!

Edited January 6, 2021 by sonyc

[repman 635]

I think there is a difference between the classic long ball style and our goal on Saturday. Long ball usually means playing the ball up the pitch, getting it as far away from your own goal as possible and often to a striker to win headers. Our goal on Saturday, while a long pass, was clearly intended for Buendia, and the run is something they would have done in training hundreds of times. 

Football is all about controlling and finding space. By pressing Barnsley were hoping to deny us the space in the buildup, trying to force mistakes and turnovers out of us. This means the ball in behind is on much more, and I imagine they will be slightly disappointed Kenny was afforded the time and space to look up and pick the pass out. In contrast other sides will come and allow us space up until their final third, looking to defend the box. Therefore the through ball won't be on as much, as the space will be in front of their defenders. That leads us to passing the ball side to side a lot, hoping to find the moment where just enough space appears to create a good chance.

[Beefy is a legend 224]

I think too often we only think about ourselves as fan pundits. In the games you've pointed out, both Barnsley and Bristol City played aggressive, high pressing styles and that allowed us to use the more direct ball in behind as a weapon. Most other sides this season haven't allowed it. McLean's ball v Birmingham at home wouldn't have resulted in a goal against Karanka's low block.

It's a trade off for opposing managers. Barnsley did cause us problems as we attempted to play out from the back. Yet, when we overcame their press there was huge space in behind and we had 4 or 5 very good chances to score resulting from that. 

As such, when some on this thread say that opponents have 'worked us out', that may be an exaggeration of the position. Rather, sides like Brum and Sheff Wed decided on the best way to attempt to nullify us. They had a degree of success with their low block frustrating us. They also both lost. Millwall and QPR did sneak a point. Preston attacked us far more but ultimately took a point also.

The reality, for me, is we have the best playing style in the league in terms of the quality of our passing and movement. So nearly every side is working out how to nullify us and keep the game tight. We are a big fish in this Championship pond. 

[seanthecanary 168]

11 hours ago, Beefy is a legend said:

I think too often we only think about ourselves as fan pundits. In the games you've pointed out, both Barnsley and Bristol City played aggressive, high pressing styles and that allowed us to use the more direct ball in behind as a weapon. Most other sides this season haven't allowed it. McLean's ball v Birmingham at home wouldn't have resulted in a goal against Karanka's low block.

It's a trade off for opposing managers. Barnsley did cause us problems as we attempted to play out from the back. Yet, when we overcame their press there was huge space in behind and we had 4 or 5 very good chances to score resulting from that. 

As such, when some on this thread say that opponents have 'worked us out', that may be an exaggeration of the position. Rather, sides like Brum and Sheff Wed decided on the best way to attempt to nullify us. They had a degree of success with their low block frustrating us. They also both lost. Millwall and QPR did sneak a point. Preston attacked us far more but ultimately took a point also.

The reality, for me, is we have the best playing style in the league in terms of the quality of our passing and movement. So nearly every side is working out how to nullify us and keep the game tight. We are a big fish in this Championship pond. 

I think the truth is that most teams in this league are happy to take a point against us by sitting deep while hoping maybe they could nick all 3 on the counter.  I don't think there are many teams willing to get into a football match with us.