INCREASE THE GROUND CAPACITY

[CanaryLegend 18]

Ok these are uncertain times for sure with Covid-19 but surely the pandemic gives rise to opportunity. We are a relatively secure club with a very good prospect of going up.

Even if we do not go up we have pretty good collateral in Max Aarons, Todd Cantwell and Emi Buendia. Surely with no fans this past year would of been the perfect time to increase ground capacity. I really feel its an opportunity missed for something we have been long in need for.

[AJ 1,218]

I'm not sure a Global Pandemic is the right time to splash a tonne of cash on a ground expansion when so many clubs are struggling to make ends meet. 

If we go up, surely the focus has to be ensuring the future of the club as well as trying to invest in the playing squad to stay up?

[Bill 1,788]

Just now, AJ said:

I'm not sure a Global Pandemic is the right time to splash a tonne of cash on a ground expansion when so many clubs are struggling to make ends meet. 

If we go up, surely the focus has to be ensuring the future of the club as well as trying to invest in the playing squad to stay up?

bet ignore, when you see his previous posts

the most obvious troll of 2021

[cambridgeshire canary 6,716]

I mean yes, our capacity should be increased to 30,312 and all

 

But now in todays covid world is not the right time. And please turn your caps lock off

[CanaryLegend 18]

How is this being a troll, starting a thread about increasing ground capacity. Not adding to the discussion and accusing of being a troll is surely ironic in itself? Bill - another keyboard warrior 

I just think the outstanding ground issue has been going on for years. Even in League One we could sell out the ground and clearly like our training round had been left to become dated and put the players off. I can't help but feel that our ground is becoming increasingly unfit for the Premier League and especially with big money corporate sponsorship. 

Yes it would cost money but the business interruption and lack of gate receipts means this is the perfect time and as I say it is not like we do not have the funds to cover with collateral in player assets and another year of parachute payments. We are in a great position to go up.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, CanaryLegend said:

Ok these are uncertain times for sure with Covid-19 but surely the pandemic gives rise to opportunity. We are a relatively secure club with a very good prospect of going up.

Even if we do not go up we have pretty good collateral in Max Aarons, Todd Cantwell and Emi Buendia. Surely with no fans this past year would of been the perfect time to increase ground capacity. I really feel its an opportunity missed for something we have been long in need for.

Is it national 'try and be really silly' day today?

Got Bill saying we're better off not getting promoted, got another chap asking what the point in player contracts is.

Now this.

If we borrow £40m today to build a stand, the repayments start immediately or close to immediately. 

We'd have to make repayments on a huge loan with much reduced revenue. That's why we can't afford to do it, the collateral is irrelevant. 

Its too much of a risk... assuming 20 year loan term and 3% interest, we'd be looking at about £220k a month in repayments, an expense we really would not need if we're stuck in this division and things aren't back to normal next season.

If covid didn't happen then I'd have agreed that now would be a good time, particularly as we'd have been looking at a decent profit for last season. Covid does not bring about the opportunity, it does the opposite... it increases the risk substantially. 

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

3 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Is it national 'try and be really silly' day today?

Got Bill saying we're better off not getting promoted, got another chap asking what the point in player contracts is.

Now this.

If we borrow £40m today to build a stand, the repayments start immediately or close to immediately. 

We'd have to make repayments on a huge loan with much reduced revenue. That's why we can't afford to do it, the collateral is irrelevant. 

Its too much of a risk... assuming 20 year loan term and 3% interest, we'd be looking at about £220k a month in repayments, an expense we really would not need if we're stuck in this division and things aren't back to normal next season.

If covid didn't happen then I'd have agreed that now would be a good time, particularly as we'd have been looking at a decent profit for last season. Covid does not bring about the opportunity, it does the opposite... it increases the risk substantially. 

I believe the aim would be to do it at a time, which is almost certainly not now, when we could finance a significant proportion (say at least 50 per cent) of the cost from available cash.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 minute ago, PurpleCanary said:

I believe the aim would be to do it at a time, which is almost certainly not now, when we could finance a significant proportion (say at least 50 per cent) of the cost from available cash.

I have a feeling that not spending last season might have been with a view to building the capital needed to start to think about this, and that Covid has actually wrecked that plan.  

[BroadstairsR 2,164]

There are two plusses:

The fact that there would be little disruption regards to displaced supporters due to the fact that the ground will be devoid of them for a while yet and interest rates are currently very low.

 

Other current factors may outweigh these considerations, but they don't decry the fact that ground expansion is needed, imo at least, and that an eye need always be kept open for an opportunity to achieve this. 

[1902 1,167]

Honestly, I would love to see Carrow Road expanded, but I can't see it happening any time soon. A £40,000,000 investment is more likely to lose us money than gain it, certainly over the next 20 years unless capacity goes up fairly substantially and we always sell out.

However if the board does think this is necessary, at least the loan will be relatively cheap. 

 

[TIL 1010 4,744]

1 hour ago, Bill said:

 

the most obvious troll of 2021

My irony meter just broke !

[1902 1,167]

13 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

There are two plusses:

The fact that there would be little disruption regards to displaced supporters due to the fact that the ground will be devoid of them for a while yet and interest rates are currently very low.

 

Other current factors may outweigh these considerations, but they don't decry the fact that ground expansion is needed, imo at least, and that an eye need always be kept open for an opportunity to achieve this. 

Admittedly I'm contradicting what I just said but interest rates are low for mortgages and businesses with a clear exit strategies post pandemic. I worry that football clubs simply look far too risky a prospect at the moment. Not necessarily because we look in trouble, but the whole pyramid looks creaky. The likelihood of us being able to sell assets to cover losses may decrease substantial if half the pyramid is in a quagmire.

If I were a lender, I'd be wanting a good rate before loaning money for football stadium expansions. Then again, I'm sure someone with more knowledge will be able to point out flaws in that logic.

[1902 1,167]

1 minute ago, TIL 1010 said:

My irony meter just broke !

Do you two ever let it drop?

[TIL 1010 4,744]

4 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Do you two ever let it drop?

Well if it wasn't me there are plenty of others in case you hadn't noticed.

[ricardo 7,385]

31 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I believe the aim would be to do it at a time, which is almost certainly not now, when we could finance a significant proportion (say at least 50 per cent) of the cost from available cash.

In other words, none of us will live long enough to see it happen.

My guess is that it will always be "not now".

[1902 1,167]

Just now, TIL 1010 said:

Well if it wasn't me there are plenty of others in case you hadn't noticed.

Well that's all right then. No need to take responsibility for your own actions at all.

[1902 1,167]

3 minutes ago, ricardo said:

In other words, none of us will live long enough to see it happen.

My guess is that it will always be "not now".

I'm not sure if this is a comment on the likelihood happening or our collective life expectancies. Both probably valid points.

[TIL 1010 4,744]

7 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Well that's all right then. No need to take responsibility for your own actions at all.

I took responsibility when i pressed the submit button 1902.

[1902 1,167]

3 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

I took responsibility when i pressed the submit button 1902.

Clearly not, because you chose to simply say that it's alright for you to press that submit button as long as others engaged in this long running negative battle you two have going on. It makes things worse for most users of this forum and detracts from the interesting comments you do make. I doubt I'm the first to say this to you, and I don't think it will make a difference but it's a shame that you lack the consideration to put yourself above this squabble for the enjoyment of others. Thats all I have to say, perhaps it's worth considering rather than rejecting out of hand.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

Another factor not yet mentioned is what the lasting impact of coronavirus will be in terms of attendances. With a combination of the ongoing health risks of attending matches and the financial implications of the pandemic on disposable income, I think it's unlikely we'd be able to fill our current stadium. The club may well need to increase prices to cover its losses, but even if they decide not to do that there will probably be a decline in attendance/ST renewal. If we're in the Championship the demand will probably be lower, but the availability of PL fixtures mean a lot more people may decide to watch at home than splash out on a season ticket. I think it'd be a monumental risk to consider expanding the stadium at this juncture; focusing on the playing squad and staying in the PL is a much sounder strategy than incurring debt to expand the stadium. TV rights are exponentially more valuable to us than matchday income.

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

In other words, none of us will live long enough to see it happen.

My guess is that it will always be "not now".

I am sure some posters here will live quite long enough to see it happen.

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

1 hour ago, 1902 said:

Honestly, I would love to see Carrow Road expanded, but I can't see it happening any time soon. A £40,000,000 investment is more likely to lose us money than gain it, certainly over the next 20 years unless capacity goes up fairly substantially and we always sell out.

However if the board does think this is necessary, at least the loan will be relatively cheap. 

 

One of the misconceptions about ground expansion is the idea that the extra seats have to be always sold out to make it financially worthwile in the long run.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, PurpleCanary said:

One of the misconceptions about ground expansion is the idea that the extra seats have to be always sold out to make it financially worthwile in the long run.

Can you expand on that PC, assume you mean that if we increase by 4k seats we don't need all £4k to be used at every game?

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

4 hours ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Can you expand on that PC, assume you mean that if we increase by 4k seats we don't need all £4k to be used at every game?

There are two points (and to be clear I am not advocating increasing capacity now). These figures are 10 years out of date but Bowkett gave an estimate of £30m cost for an extra I think it was 5,000 seats, all paid for by borrowing, so a total of £50m to be paid back at £2.5m a year over 20 years. And if all of that was paid for by usage of the extra seats it would require total usage.

That is not the plan I envisage, which would be for a smaller increase in capacity, of, say, no more than 4,000 seats, if that, taking us to no more than 31,000, and a significant amount paid for from accumulated cash, so a smaller amount of borrowing/interest. Plus possibly some of the interest being paid for from cash rather than seat usage.

This is a very crude figure, but if only 2,000 extra seats were used on average over a 20-year repayment schedule that would bring in more than £1m a season for repayments.

One cannot predict the future, but it is reasonable assumption that we will spend some time in the PL over the next 20 years and that we will develop some young players who will be sold for large amounts of money. Given that, I would say that enough of the money could come from non-borrowings to make it financially viable.

The second point is that once paid for, any of that extra capacity is pure profit, and not just from ticket sales but catering and commercial as well. That is the case with those extra 4,000 seats in the South Stand, which were paid for nearly ten years ago now. Even if only one-quarter of those extra seats are used that is pure profit now. As iut happens, there has been near 100 per cent usage of those extra 4,000, but that was not and is not required.

Of course that is based on the assumption we actually accept promotion to the Premier League rather than this new hipster notion of deciding to stay in the Championship...🤓

Edited January 5, 2021 by PurpleCanary

[East Rider 549]

I have always been for expansion at CR but I feel that horse (for now) has sadly well and truly bolted. Imagine if we borrowed a sizable sum for this venture only to then find covid 19 reappears in version 2/3/4 next winter and then again the winter after that?

A large proportion of our supporter base that already occupy those seats as season ticket holders would probably never return for fear of infection etc. This of course might not occur but who would borrow a debilitating sum against risks such as these? 

For us as a club to progress we need to expand that ground and find innovative ways to entice support, especially younger fans into those seats, which is not beyond the wit to do.

However, if you held the purse strings, would you gamble on what we already know?

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by East Rider

[BroadstairsR 2,164]

When I was a teen it was possible to roll up and walk in. Admittedly, we were never a top league club but then again gates were usually more than decent and I particularly remember swaying with the crowd when Charlie Hurley headed that Sunderland winner in the Cup (and Sunderland supporters hanging from the rafters in the old South Stand.)

All-seating has, of course, reduced capacity and add to this the constant 'sold out' signs that surround Carrow Road on a match day then I doubt if I would now be the regular that I was in the day. 

I'm not saying that I would not now be a fan because of this, but the problems of actually attending a Premier League, and even a Chumps match, hosted by City surely impact negatively against our future fanbase.

The arguments for or against ground expansion have existed on this forum for years. There's credit on either side, but they don't go away.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

2 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

When I was a teen it was possible to roll up and walk in. Admittedly, we were never a top league club but then again gates were usually more than decent and I particularly remember swaying with the crowd when Charlie Hurley headed that Sunderland winner in the Cup (and Sunderland supporters hanging from the rafters in the old South Stand.)

All-seating has, of course, reduced capacity and add to this the constant 'sold out' signs that surround Carrow Road on a match day then I doubt if I would now be the regular that I was in the day. 

I'm not saying that I would not now be a fan because of this, but the problems of actually attending a Premier League, and even a Chumps match, hosted by City surely impact negatively against our future fanbase.

The arguments for or against ground expansion have existed on this forum for years. There's credit on either side, but they don't go away.

I've been saying for years that the days of a group of mates or a family of more than three getting tickets together at CR pretty much ended years ago. That significantly impacts our support. I don't think now is the time (we probably couldn't do it anyway) but it's a very logical step to try and find a way to increase capacity without impacting funds for the first team too much in the coming few years.

[Michael Starr 519]

I'd say right now that there is more chance of a capacity reduction. We will likely see some seats used as separators and, dare i say, some permanent perspex partitions put around seats. if that happens, capacity will reduce considerably. It's only a matter of time before sci-fi becomes reality, and we are all sprayed with something when going through doors.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Michael Starr

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 hour ago, Michael Starr said:

It's only a matter of time before sci-fi becomes reality, and we are all sprayed with something when going through doors.

Guessing you don't mean beer then 😁

[HazzaJet 252]

There’s a reason why and why not to expand the stadium capacity now. Why to - no fans able attend, so won’t reduce attendance for upcoming fixtures. Why not - if we do manage to bounce straight back we want to be able to spend as much money on strengthening the squad as possible as that was one of the reasons we got relegated last season, and football stadium expansion isn’t going to come cheap. We also need to get paid off for the expansion asap, so we’ll need good attendances and we don’t have a clue when full match attendance will be permitted again. It’ll also take quite a bit of time to complete the expansion, and if we don’t finish it until quite some time after full match attendance is permitted then it will also be a blow.

At the moment I would only consider it we managed to become an established PL side, well out of debt, with Covid-19 well under control.