And so Sheffield United continue the worst run in the top flight since 1888

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I think this thread started as a dig at Sheffield United and banter should be a two way thing and any mickey taking at us should be shrugged off.

So having a dig at them now is understandable and their plight gives many comfort.

That they have spent a lot of money to be in their predicament does back up the opinions of those who think spending big is dangerous.

Their owner is a minor prince and doesn't have the great wealth as perceived.

So they gambled on spending to cement their place in the EPL. Fair enough. It looks the wrong decision though.

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Then lets never sign anyone, it might not work out? I know that a bit factious but its the logical end point of that mentality.

Nowhere, and at no point have I suggested that we should never sign anybody - I'm just pointing out that the reality is that some signings work out and some don't - irrespective of what sort of player that signing is. Signing Naismith last time for £2.5 million LESS than Cardiff paid for Murphy - nearly broke us. If (and it's still a big if) - we get promoted this season I expect we'll probably have more to spend than at any point in our history. Hey, we might have £30 million or so - a totally piffling and insignificant amount in the Premier League scheme of things - as Ricardo said - "Learn to love the YOYO". 🙂 

[king canary 7,599]

Just now, Thirsty Lizard said:

Signing Naismith last time for £2.5 million LESS than Cardiff paid for Murphy - nearly broke us.

Exactly. And this is thhe problem. In the grand scheme of top flight football the Naismith transfer is small fry. If we can't cope with something like that then maybe something needs to change...

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

Sure the Premier League might become a 15 team league but it would be insane to run your club on the basis of a highly unlikely event happening. 

What? Contingency  planning is essential. Call it " wriggle room" or whatever you like but not having it....that's  insane.

[king canary 7,599]

Just now, wcorkcanary said:

What? Contingency  planning is essential. Call it " wriggle room" or whatever you like but not having it....that's  insane.

Yeah there is contingency planning and then there is what Badger is suggesting, which is the equivilent of not investing in restocking your shop because it might burn down the next day.

[Mello Yello 2,289]

NCFC Club contingency Finances?......

 

 

How much does the club fork out to charter this baby to regularly travel there and back to away games then?........

 

 

 

 

 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

Exactly. And this is thhe problem. In the grand scheme of top flight football the Naismith transfer is small fry. If we can't cope with something like that then maybe something needs to change...

It is being changed , pretty much since  the 'Naismith era  ,'  it just so happens  that you have other ideas, ones which are fine to discuss hypothetically , but its starting  to sound like you wont give  up until you have us all persuaded that you are right.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah there is contingency planning and then there is what Badger is suggesting, which is the equivilent of not investing in restocking your shop because it might burn down the next day.

 

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah there is contingency planning and then there is what Badger is suggesting, which is the equivilent of not investing in restocking your shop because it might burn down the next day.

That's not what he's  saying and you know it.

I know which plans I prefer between  yours and Webbers, you came second by the way.

[sgncfc 1,227]

So, in essence, what's the point of it all? What are football clubs trying to achieve? Any on pitch success is always temporary - the next season always comes around. Off field success is only about financial survival rather than growth - whether with or without a rich benefactor.

A normal business tries to make profit whilst building assets over time. Football clubs don't tend to be run to make profits - everything gets invested.

Why bother?

The answer has to be so that people are entertained and because supporters care about their club. Is that then a better measure of success and if it is, aren't we doing it rather well?

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

23 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

NCFC Club contingency Finances?......

 

 

How much does the club fork out to charter this baby to regularly travel there and back to away games then?........

 

 

 

 

 

Who says that they do? (If it's for the players then I think this season of all seasons it's worth it). 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

21 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

So, in essence, what's the point of it all? What are football clubs trying to achieve? Any on pitch success is always temporary - the next season always comes around. Off field success is only about financial survival rather than growth - whether with or without a rich benefactor.

A normal business tries to make profit whilst building assets over time. Football clubs don't tend to be run to make profits - everything gets invested.

Why bother?

The answer has to be so that people are entertained and because supporters care about their club. Is that then a better measure of success and if it is, aren't we doing it rather well?

Exactly!!!

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

2 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Exactly!!!

Seconded. 

 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

22 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

NCFC Club contingency Finances?......

 

 

How much does the club fork out to charter this baby to regularly travel there and back to away games then?........

 

 

 

 

 

Should have a banner behind it....someone  missed a trick  there.😇

Edited January 18, 2021 by wcorkcanary

[duke63 542]

Roy Keane suggested yesterday Sheff Utd were the worst Premier League team he has ever seen. Souness seemed to agree with him.

Bar about 6 clubs, all the current premier league will be relegated at some point or other in the future. It only takes, a bad decision, some bad luck, a run of injuries and most of them would be in trouble.

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

33 minutes ago, king canary said:

Exactly. And this is thhe problem. In the grand scheme of top flight football the Naismith transfer is small fry. If we can't cope with something like that then maybe something needs to change...

1. Football finally comes to its collective senses and adopts a model which is sustainable in the long term for ALL CLUBS (chances marginally less than zero).

2. Delia and MWJ sell up to a rich benefactor (hasn't happened yet, but still could at some time in the future)

3. We adopt a carefully planned, long term approach which maximises our chances of success within the constraints we operate under. (What we're currently doing)

In the meantime, as sgncfc states above, us fans hope to be entertained (which is definitely happening at the moment).

(I like writing stuff in brackets). 🙂 

[Badger 2,405]

48 minutes ago, king canary said:

Sure the Premier League might become a 15 team league but it would be insane to run your club on the basis of a highly unlikely event happening. 

There are always disruptive events - any business has to ensure that it is not over-exposed so that they can survive them.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

40 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

NCFC Club contingency Finances?......

 

 

How much does the club fork out to charter this baby to regularly travel there and back to away games then?........

 

 

 

 

 

By the looks of it we use the Bay City Rollers plane when they dont need  it . 

[Badger 2,405]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

Interesting figures Badger.

I'd be interested to know what the club's assets were like. Are their grounds, training grounds etc. security for the loans? Do the clubs still even own the stadiums.and assets?

The article I got it from says,

"it does reveal that the loan is secured against the club and its stadium and other intellectual properties such as trademarks owned by the club."

This suggests that they do own the stadium

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/msds-new-uk-holding-company-18537244

 

[king canary 7,599]

21 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

1. Football finally comes to its collective senses and adopts a model which is sustainable in the long term for ALL CLUBS (chances marginally less than zero).

2. Delia and MWJ sell up to a rich benefactor (hasn't happened yet, but still could at some time in the future)

3. We adopt a carefully planned, long term approach which maximises our chances of success within the constraints we operate under. (What we're currently doing)

In the meantime, as sgncfc states above, us fans hope to be entertained (which is definitely happening at the moment).

(I like writing stuff in brackets). 🙂 

I agree those are our 3 options.

In an ideal world number 1 happens- I'm pro salary caps, squad size restrictions, ending the loan market and all sorts of measures that would make a sustainably run football club also a competitive football club. Those are utopian ideas though. 

In all likelihood I think number 2 has to happen at some point.

Number 3 is of course the reality right now but the proof of how this all works out isn't knowable yet. For instance I think you might see a bigger backlash if we go up and repeat last season again. Will be interesting to see. 

[Badger 2,405]

45 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah there is contingency planning and then there is what Badger is suggesting, which is the equivilent of not investing in restocking your shop because it might burn down the next day.

I am not saying anything remotely like this.

Of course there should be investment in the club including players. However, the contingency planning needs to take into account the significant possibility of relegation  and ensure that in that event the club will not be in a highly vulnerable position or over-exposed to the extent that they can no longer be a competitive force moving forwards.

It also needs to recognise that player purchase is highly unpredictable and that they  are not really assets in the true sense of the word and if unsuccessful/ injured become multi-million pound liabilities.

[ron obvious 1,502]

45 minutes ago, king canary said:

Exactly. And this is thhe problem. In the grand scheme of top flight football the Naismith transfer is small fry. If we can't cope with something like that then maybe something needs to change...

Great. So your answer is: spend more money THAT WE DON'T HAVE. 

Transfers like Naismith & Ricky nearly finished us. As it happened Maddison kept us out of the shiite.

Something needs to change? I can only imagine your plan would be to put the club into administration so some rich 'benefactor' comes in to pick the club up on the cheap. Sounds like a great plan. What could possibly go wrong??

The balance sheet doesn't matter - so long as the balance is on the right side. Many, many years ago I learnt that money doesn't matter - until you haven't got any. So I want to see the club with a healthy balance sheet, simply because we can then forget about it & get on with assembling the best squad we can playing the best football. Which is what we're doing.

[king canary 7,599]

Just now, Badger said:

I am not saying anything remotely like this.

Of course there should be investment in the club including players. However, the contingency planning needs to take into account the significant possibility of relegation  and ensure that in that event the club will not be in a highly vulnerable position or over-exposed to the extent that they can no longer be a competitive force moving forwards.

It also needs to recognise that player purchase is highly unpredictable and that they  are not really assets in the true sense of the word and if unsuccessful/ injured become multi-million pound liabilities.

Of course it needs to plan for relegation- that is an event with a fairly high liklihood for a club like us. I was talking about your point about the Premier League becoming a 15 team league- that sort of thing you just can't really plan for, just as I wouldn't claim businesses who are struggling right now should have had planning in place for a year long pandemic. 

[Mello Yello 2,289]

24 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Who says that they do? (If it's for the players then I think this season of all seasons it's worth it). 

They do use those aircraft and that teenage angst International 'Greeny' Greta Thunberg would be spinning like a Tasmanian devil regarding NCFCs carbon footprints and all that.....(Oh, and the charter aircraft weren't/aren't just being used for this season either).... I wonder also if our probably passenger less or almost empty team coaches/buses also have to make the journey, carrying spare kit and stuff etc, in the event of a problem with the 'well worth it' chartered aircraft?.....

How many other Championship clubs (or even Prem clubs) have the perks of flying to away games and back, eh?.....

An absolute necessity, or just a nice perk.....?

 

[ron obvious 1,502]

4 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

They do use those aircraft and that teenage angst International 'Greeny' Greta Thunberg would be spinning like a Tasmanian devil regarding NCFCs carbon footprints and all that.....(Oh, and the charter aircraft weren't/aren't just being used for this season either).... I wonder also if our probably passenger less or almost empty team coaches/buses also have to make the journey, carrying spare kit and stuff etc, in the event of a problem with the 'well worth it' chartered aircraft?.....

How many other Championship clubs (or even Prem clubs) have the perks of flying to away games and back, eh?.....

An absolute necessity, or just a nice perk.....?

 

Any idea of the cost? I reckon it's £10-15k. 

If it gives that fresher squad, translating to an extra win that gains promotion though .......

[Crabbycanary3 994]

9 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

They do use those aircraft and that teenage angst International 'Greeny' Greta Thunberg would be spinning like a Tasmanian devil regarding NCFCs carbon footprints and all that.....(Oh, and the charter aircraft weren't/aren't just being used for this season either).... I wonder also if our probably passenger less or almost empty team coaches/buses also have to make the journey, carrying spare kit and stuff etc, in the event of a problem with the 'well worth it' chartered aircraft?.....

How many other Championship clubs (or even Prem clubs) have the perks of flying to away games and back, eh?.....

An absolute necessity, or just a nice perk.....?

 

Some of it has to be a necessity with our geographical position, and other fixtures around those games which would benefit us flying (recovery times etc)

Have i remembered correctly a story from a few years ago that Arsenal flew up to Norwich for a game , or was that just a yarn?

[Fuzzar 1,702]

Hell, the binners even flew to Carrow Road the last time they played us...

[king canary 7,599]

16 minutes ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

Some of it has to be a necessity with our geographical position, and other fixtures around those games which would benefit us flying (recovery times etc)

Have i remembered correctly a story from a few years ago that Arsenal flew up to Norwich for a game , or was that just a yarn?

It did happen.

[Mello Yello 2,289]

2 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

Any idea of the cost? I reckon it's £10-15k. 

If it gives that fresher squad, translating to an extra win that gains promotion though .......

Travel to games by expensive air charter is therefore justifiable and contingency club money well spent then, as well as the costs of the empty club team buses travelling to the away games.... 

So when the club ever again falls on hard times and pleads poverty, we'll all religiously throw our coins in them blankets and buckets..... 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

5 hours ago, king canary said:

This, for me, is the long term issue with the model.

If we're self funding it means that we need to be able to either chop our wage bill down to a self funding level in the Championship very quickly or we need to subsidise the wage bill wtih player sales.

Our turnover without parachute payments in the Championship is somewhere around £30-35m. So we need to be able to swiftly slash our wage budget to around £20m in two seasons to remain self funding, meaning we can never really push the boat out wages wise.  

But there is a "third way" between splashing loads and ending up hamstrung a la Naismith, RVW etc and spending almost nothing  and running a club simply to sell players and stay afloat. That is to invest in youth, training facilities, coaching, scouting etc building a fantastic reputation which encourages players to take a risk in proving themselves at City even if they have to accept that wages will reduce considerably should we be relegated. Giannoulis looks like a high pedigree player and is probably thinking "I'll probably be first choice in a Premier League team next season, yes if we go down my wages will be much lower but if I've done well enough I'll get a move back to the Prem". This is our niche and it's pretty similar to the one Leicester and Southampton have been built on.

I think your point about Godfrey kind of illustrates the disagreement here. You see it as entirely negative, others see that we have replaced him with an England squad player who is playing very well for a third of the money and when it comes to Buendia the line across the media is we "don't need to sell" BECAUSE of the sales of Godfrey and Lewis. If I got the impression that as a club we were desperate to sell our players once any half decent approach is made I would fully agree with your "glass half empty" approach. There is absolutely no evidence of that though.

[ron obvious 1,502]

Just now, Mello Yello said:

Travel to games by expensive air charter is therefore justifiable and contingency club money well spent then, as well as the costs of the empty club team buses travelling to the away games.... 

So when the club ever again falls on hard times and pleads poverty, we'll all religiously throw our coins in them blankets and buckets..... 

I don't know if it is justifiable. I don't know how to calculate the knackerage coefficient. 

How many games do they do it?