Cantwell

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

8 hours ago, chicken said:

Chances created is a pointless stat. It just means you passed to someone who shot. That's it. It doesn't actually mean you created a chance, it means you passed it to someone who shot. It lacks the context of whether it was a clever turn from the player that set up the shooting chance or whether it was a Tettey style try your luck from 40 yards.

But when all is said and done, goals count. Remember how many years Hoolahan was creating assists and being ahead of the table in that regard early on in seasons including when in the premier league? Only club ever to come in for him was Villa due to Lambert. The main reason was lack of goals.

Don't you think it odd that he assisted well in the Championship last time - no offers. Assisted a good number of the few premier league goals we scored and yet no firm interest last season and links were to Villa and Leeds etc, hardly inspiring. Yet this season there are two differences, he has scored more goals and more recently, has cut out the histrionics. Now Arsenal are said to be very keen on him. That's just a coincidence? 

 

You can also look at Key chances created you know?

Cantwells scored less goals in this league after the links.

Not really sure what your point is with Buendia, but he is an excellent player and the day he leaves this club is going to be an extremely sad day. The money better be reinvested properly on a good replacement.

[shruk4 60]

I think its funny how some comments here establish a clear link between how much a player dives and throws their hands out and how good they are. Arsenal are interested in Buendia cause he is a fantastic player, which he has been for 2-3 years now. Not because "he stopped throwing tantrums". Its a bit of a patronizing way of looking at players

[Crabbycanary3 994]

On 09/01/2021 at 13:21, Jersey Canary said:

Apart from one shot and a nice turn in front of the dugouts I don’t see what value he has added. Bring back Onel. Far more effective. 

We'll totally disagree on this. As much as I like the 'enthusiasm' Onel brings to the attack, for actual effectiveness and impact, he, imo, doesn't contribute anywhere near enough to warrant that praise over Cantwell, that you obviously state. I have watched Onel on many occasions, run fast, and get the crowd going (great) but then not have the ability to actually beat players (which you would really want your wingers to do) and set up a chance. He has run down many blind alleys, and lost the team the attacking momentum. We are obviously thinking about the Premier League now, and their defenders would (again imo) much prefer to play against Onel than Todd.  They have the same goal scoring ratio, so it's about contributing to the overall team attacking threat and for me, so if it was a straight choice between the two, Todd wins it comfortably.

Even taking into consideration the 5 year age gap and footballing maturity, Todd is more effective and has more (quality) impact on a game and it would be very natural to believe that Todd ( at 22) will go from strength to strength and get  even better, than Onel (27) will now. 

[Jersey Canary 143]

12 hours ago, chicken said:

There wasn't any confirmed interest in either over the summer. Cantwell hasn't been valued at £15-20m and "we're" doesn't mean £40m is even accurate. It's a rumour that has been dismissed by the club already. No offers tabled for Buendia, just a rumour that they inquired and we said "not for sale" that's it.

I've not even said which is a better player or which is worth more in transfer fees.

Just that the criticisms often levelled at Cantwell are not unique to him and people tend to forget even what the manager has said. Buendia's petulance has seen him sent off. And especially last season, it cost us games and points. I've merely pointed out that him cutting this out is what has seemingly drawn more interest to him this season from teams looking for players.

The "thrive in a better team" argument can be applied to anyone. Pukki would score more goals in a better team, especially last season in the premier league. Krul would keep more clean sheets in a better team.

In the prem, if you are a good enough side you have more than two or three players for the opposition to try and focus on, it buys you more space and time.

A lot of players get lost in a better team as better players get in before them and they never get a chance. Buendia is exceptional and would grab the opportunity in my view. Cantwell wouldn’t have a great enough impact to command a regular slot based on current form.

I agree Pukki, Krul, Buendia, Aarons would do better in a better team.  I don’t think you could say the same about the others at the moment. Cantwell may make it and he’s on a journey.
 

Hopefully another stint in the PL with Norwich will sort the men from the boys. 

[hogesar 9,668]

1 minute ago, Jersey Canary said:

A lot of players get lost in a better team as better players get in before them and they never get a chance. Buendia is exceptional and would grab the opportunity in my view. Cantwell wouldn’t have a great enough impact to command a regular slot based on current form.

I agree Pukki, Krul, Buendia, Aarons would do better in a better team.  I don’t think you could say the same about the others at the moment. Cantwell may make it and he’s on a journey.
 

Hopefully another stint in the PL with Norwich will sort the men from the boys. 

Cantwell already proved himself in the Premier League by being our second highest goalscorer (only Pukki scoring more). That's why there was so much speculation about him in the summer.

[Jersey Canary 143]

16 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Cantwell already proved himself in the Premier League by being our second highest goalscorer (only Pukki scoring more). That's why there was so much speculation about him in the summer.

Again in the PL he scored as many as he contributed to goals conceded I’d have though. Poor clearances, weak tackles, dribbling in the wrong area, wasteful passes etc. That’s why no one has snapped him up and I don’t see teams queuing up to purchase him neither in January.

[hogesar 9,668]

3 minutes ago, Jersey Canary said:

Again in the PL he scored as many as he contributed to goals conceded I’d have though. Poor clearances, weak tackles, dribbling in the wrong area, wasteful passes etc. That’s why no one has snapped him up and I don’t see teams queuing up to purchase him neither in January.

Dear me, talk about desperation. Is it his long hair that causes you problems?

FYI, the best attacking midfielders in the world give the ball away, get tackled etc. It's because their job is to create and there's risk involved.

 

[lake district canary 4,531]

6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Cantwell already proved himself in the Premier League by being our second highest goalscorer (only Pukki scoring more). That's why there was so much speculation about him in the summer.

All he did last season was show good promise - and goals are not the be all and end all of someone's game. Scoring 6 or 7 goals in a relegated team means diddly squat imo. Good that he scored goals, but there is more to it than that.  It was the same with Snodgrass in midfield - scored 8 goals but created very few chances as a playmaker and we got relegated. Not saying these two players are similar because they are not, but the point remains - a successful midfielder creates chances as well as scores them. Too many times Todd would rarely do anything creative, just playing short passes - and the manager intimated as such late in the season telling his midfielders they needed take more responsibility to be effective as midfielders.

He still has huge potential, but the reason he is still at Norwich is because he was not the finished article last season and big teams in the PL will only want to buy people that can fit straight in their team, as most of them already have big squads with young players in with talent.

If he carries on improvng this season (as he is doing by the looks of it) he will get his chance of a move to a big club maybe in the summer. Buendia looks more likely to be the one that moves on sooner and we will do well to keep him until the summer, but the reality is Todd needs to demonstrate his credentials week in week out over the whole season - to be regularly and consistently effective in scoring and in playmaking. He is doing that - he really does look the part now - but there is still room for him to improve, even this season.

Opposition fans might look at highlights, clips on you tube etc etc and see some of the brilliant things he does and thinks, yeah, we want him, but when you watch him all the time, you see he is not the finished article like say Maddison was, who was clearly ready for a big club move. Imo Todd is not ready......yet.  It may come, but he still has progress to make and dare I say, a bit more maturity.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

For crying out loud, Todd is 22. He played in the Premier League at 21 (and still scored a few goals in a struggling team)

I get that some people recognise he has a lot to learn, but which 22 year olds don't?

He is showing more potential at this age, than certain (lauded) players who have a few years on him (Snodgrass for example couldn't do it and he was much older than Todd).

Potential? He has it in bucketloads, but so do plenty of others who do not go onto to bigger and better things.

For someone who is 22, I would be inclined to celebrate his performances so far and , as much as we all want to improve as much as possible, let's not get things unbalanced here, and focus more on the negatives (!!), let's build him up.

Eze (same age as Todd, and Todd has a better goal scoring ratio atm) at Palace (not struggling)  is attracting a lot of praise, but it his 1st season in the Prem, so we ought to see how his next season or two go, but how many other English players of the same age and position, are streets ahead of Todd? Not many. 

[lake district canary 4,531]

38 minutes ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

For crying out loud, Todd is 22. He played in the Premier League at 21 (and still scored a few goals in a struggling team)

I get that some people recognise he has a lot to learn, but which 22 year olds don't?

He is showing more potential at this age, than certain (lauded) players who have a few years on him (Snodgrass for example couldn't do it and he was much older than Todd).

Potential? He has it in bucketloads, but so do plenty of others who do not go onto to bigger and better things.

For someone who is 22, I would be inclined to celebrate his performances so far and , as much as we all want to improve as much as possible, let's not get things unbalanced here, and focus more on the negatives (!!), let's build him up.

Eze (same age as Todd, and Todd has a better goal scoring ratio atm) at Palace (not struggling)  is attracting a lot of praise, but it his 1st season in the Prem, so we ought to see how his next season or two go, but how many other English players of the same age and position, are streets ahead of Todd? Not many. 

I agree with all that except the "let's build him up".  It is precisely that which is the issue - people building him up too much.  He is a talented, excellent young footballer with the world at his feet, but he is not Messi, he is not even a Maddison, but people seem so afraid of the smallest bit of criticism.  Are they afraid he will think "they don't love me so I'm off"?  I don't think that comes into it because he is a pro footballer and will be off if the right deal comes along anyway, so yeah, build him up by all means, but lets not get carried away. 

Wes was a footballer who frustrated quite a bit earlier in his career, but improved like a fine wine and that is what I think about Cantwell.  Still frustrates at times, but can turn a game with a touch or a spin and a goal - and will improve. Most top players don't frustrate that much - they all have ups and downs, but Todd has the potential to be a top top player and that is what he should be measured against - and at the moment he is not that, otherwise he would have gone to a top club by now. 

So let's not build him up too much, let's not get carried away with it, let's see and enjoy how he develops and improves, but in the meantime lets praise him when he does well and criticise him when he doesn't do so well.  At the moment, he is proving himself and that is great, but I want to see him do better, mainly because I know he can.

 

[Crabbycanary3 994]

Mmm, I see people crucifying him, or focusing on his negatives. I would like to see more celebrating of his positives, it is unbalanced atm. There is nothing wrong in looking for improvement, especially if you a young player can soak that up (from the right sources!) as soon as possible. Build him up does not mean ignore his faults.

To say that he is not even a Maddison is setting the bar extremely high and unfair. There are not many Maddisons about

[hogesar 9,668]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

All he did last season was show good promise - and goals are not the be all and end all of someone's game. Scoring 6 or 7 goals in a relegated team means diddly squat imo.

Scoring 6 or 7 goals in a relegated Prem team is much, much harder than doing it in a top 6 team.

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

26 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Scoring 6 or 7 goals in a relegated Prem team is much, much harder than doing it in a top 6 team.

I’m guessing Lake District didn’t rate Lineker then 🤣

[lake district canary 4,531]

34 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Scoring 6 or 7 goals in a relegated Prem team is much, much harder than doing it in a top 6 team.

That isn't true. The quality of skill/running and space created by superior colleagues is likely to mean that it is easier to find the spaces to score 6 or 7 goals in a top team. 

[Ian 1,129]

2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

That isn't true. The quality of skill/running and space created by superior colleagues is likely to mean that it is easier to find the spaces to score 6 or 7 goals in a top team. 

So in other words, the better the colleagues the easier it is to score because they create space and opportunities? Just trying to work out how that invalidates @hogesar's point?

[Mr Angry 1,555]

All this thread shows is that having made an initial decision about how good or bad a given player is, a lot of people are unwilling to change their decision regardless of whether the player improves or gets worse 😳

[curious yellow 184]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

I agree with all that except the "let's build him up".  It is precisely that which is the issue - people building him up too much.  He is a talented, excellent young footballer with the world at his feet, but he is not Messi, he is not even a Maddison, but people seem so afraid of the smallest bit of criticism.  Are they afraid he will think "they don't love me so I'm off"?  I don't think that comes into it because he is a pro footballer and will be off if the right deal comes along anyway, so yeah, build him up by all means, but lets not get carried away. 

Wes was a footballer who frustrated quite a bit earlier in his career, but improved like a fine wine and that is what I think about Cantwell.  Still frustrates at times, but can turn a game with a touch or a spin and a goal - and will improve. Most top players don't frustrate that much - they all have ups and downs, but Todd has the potential to be a top top player and that is what he should be measured against - and at the moment he is not that, otherwise he would have gone to a top club by now. 

So let's not build him up too much, let's not get carried away with it, let's see and enjoy how he develops and improves, but in the meantime lets praise him when he does well and criticise him when he doesn't do so well.  At the moment, he is proving himself and that is great, but I want to see him do better, mainly because I know he can.

 

Nobody is trying to hero worship Cantwell, just replying to criticisms which are constant and not based on fact. None of these are more ridiculous than dismissing his goals last season against the top teams in the country - or trying to suggest that he is "just running around to look good" 

He created plenty of chances last season, Buendia takes most of the free kicks and corners so is likely to create more, but his goals dropped dramatically. 

Talking of building players up (or not) did you not suggest that Barden is now ready to challenge Krul? 

[lake district canary 4,531]

1 minute ago, curious yellow said:

Talking of building players up (or not) did you not suggest that Barden is now ready to challenge Krul? 

No. I said that if he gets a run in the team and builds a solid reputation as a goalkeeper at this level, it won't be long before he is knocking on the door.

[curious yellow 184]

7 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

No. I said that if he gets a run in the team and builds a solid reputation as a goalkeeper at this level, it won't be long before he is knocking on the door.

Nope.

Posted Saturday at 16:44

" we have a goalie to genuinely challenge Krul for the shirt. His stature/reputation enhanced no end after that"

 

Genuine build up, no caution about not being the finished article. Probably based on his sensible haircut, perhaps not. 

 

 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,431]

We all have to accept that professional football people rate Todd. It’s a simple as that. 
 

If you watch him he has attributes that set him out from many others . In the Prem he got noticed . 
 

He sets up to receive the ball and he passes to his teammates. He can glide with the ball and does defend . 
 

Professional coaches see that he was still able to do all of these things in a struggling premier league side . 
 

We are better with him than without him. 

[Downloads 35]

3 hours ago, Jersey Canary said:

Again in the PL he scored as many as he contributed to goals conceded I’d have though. Poor clearances, weak tackles, dribbling in the wrong area, wasteful passes etc. That’s why no one has snapped him up and I don’t see teams queuing up to purchase him neither in January.

You just made this up, you have no idea really.

I could say Buendia gave away twice as many goals away in the Prem - But there is nothing to support this.

You make it sound like your opinions are facts, they aren't, you are wrong.

[hogesar 9,668]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

That isn't true. The quality of skill/running and space created by superior colleagues is likely to mean that it is easier to find the spaces to score 6 or 7 goals in a top team. 

But you just agreed with me.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

16 hours ago, chicken said:

Chances created is a pointless stat. It just means you passed to someone who shot. That's it. It doesn't actually mean you created a chance, it means you passed it to someone who shot. 

Sorry but I really don't follow this criticism. Do you believe assists are a pointless stat too then? That's the same thing, only the player who shoots scores, something which is not in the passer's control?

Yes sometimes you will get key passes / chances created which are simple lay-offs which anyone could do, or the player shoots from a ridiculous position - therefore inflating or overestimating the figures a little. But that flaw is not unique to any individual and it applies to everyone in unison. Over the course of the season then, the anomalies surely even themselves out. 

Really, all creative players will have a range of assists / key passes / chances created from the simple to the more technical.

Bruno Fernandes in recent weeks for instance has got assists from simple lay-offs to McTominay and Pogba who were 25 yards out, and another for completely accidentally setting up Rashford versus Leicester. But he's also got plenty of cracking assists too. It all counts just as a simple tap-in or goal off his backside would count for a striker too!

If the player isn't too good and only capable of simple assists or passes, then his creativity stats will ultimately never correspond as well as a player who has more ability, and our Buendia is head and shoulders top of these charts in the champs for very good reason IMO. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

All he did last season was show good promise - and goals are not the be all and end all of someone's game. Scoring 6 or 7 goals in a relegated team means diddly squat imo. Good that he scored goals, but there is more to it than that.  It was the same with Snodgrass in midfield - scored 8 goals but created very few chances as a playmaker and we got relegated. Not saying these two players are similar because they are not, but the point remains - a successful midfielder creates chances as well as scores them. Too many times Todd would rarely do anything creative, just playing short passes - and the manager intimated as such late in the season telling his midfielders they needed take more responsibility to be effective as midfielders.

Such a bizarre criticism! 

If scoring for the team which ultimately fails means 'diddly squat', what on earth can you say about all our creative players who failed completely to register goals? 

He managed 6 goals and 2 assists from attacking midfield in a team which managed only 26 goals the entire season. Just shy of one third of our goals were directly related to his involvement in the team. 

I don't know how you can take away an individual's credentials like that. How is that fair? The facts are that Cantwell was one of our best creative players last season and our second top goal scorer, what more was expected from him in his debut prem season?

He deserves far more from you than to completely disregard his efforts last season because the team overall faltered. None of that was on him and we would have done a damn sight worse without him! 

Additionally, I'd like to point out that Godfrey and Lewis were part of a defence which shipped 75 goals, yet both now find themselves at established prem sides, it's almost like individuals can stand out and indeed do deserve credit for performing well - even if the team doesn't succeed in the end?!

[lake district canary 4,531]

1 hour ago, curious yellow said:

Nope.

Posted Saturday at 16:44

" we have a goalie to genuinely challenge Krul for the shirt. His stature/reputation enhanced no end after that"Genuine build up,

 

But that's typical of taking part of a sentence and ignoring the bit before it - 

"Don't know when Krul might be back, hopefully next week, but on that performance, then we have a goalie to genuinely challenge Krul for the shirt. His stature/reputation enhanced no end after that."

"On that performance" -  which implies that if he can maintain that kind of form then he will be challenging Krul, which would be true.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

The big question for me is will he be signing a new contract with us, or will we be wishing him farewell this summer, or perhaps even this window?

[lake district canary 4,531]

43 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Such a bizarre criticism! 

If scoring for the team which ultimately fails means 'diddly squat', what on earth can you say about all our creative players who failed completely to register goals? 

He managed 6 goals and 2 assists from attacking midfield in a team which managed only 26 goals the entire season. Just shy of one third of our goals were directly related to his involvement in the team. 

I don't know how you can take away an individual's credentials like that. How is that fair? The facts are that Cantwell was one of our best creative players last season and our second top goal scorer, what more was expected from him in his debut prem season?

He deserves far more from you than to completely disregard his efforts last season because the team overall faltered. None of that was on him and we would have done a damn sight worse without him! 

Additionally, I'd like to point out that Godfrey and Lewis were part of a defence which shipped 75 goals, yet both now find themselves at established prem sides, it's almost like individuals can stand out and indeed do deserve credit for performing well - even if the team doesn't succeed in the end?!

Oh well, it makes a kind of sense to me. I don't really think that any player in a team that is relegated is deserving of that much praise. Todd, started well and faded until the last couple of weeks of the season when he upped his game. Pukki started well, lost a bit of form. Emi, started well, faded, then he too showed a bit more near the end of the season. You name them they all had their down side.

Funnily enough, the defence are deserving of less criticism for me, did ok considering the injuries - Aarons and Lewis both did ok overall (Lewis a bit slow to acclimatise but improved). Godfrey who I thought did well in a makeshift defence with a different partner every few games and dealing with his own injury. Ok we shipped quite a lot of goals, but really the problem was the other end of the pitch - lack of goals and lack of effective midfield play.......

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

Oh well, it makes a kind of sense to me. I don't really think that any player in a team that is relegated is deserving of that much praise. Todd, started well and faded until the last couple of weeks of the season when he upped his game. Pukki started well, lost a bit of form. Emi, started well, faded, then he too showed a bit more near the end of the season. You name them they all had their down side.

Funnily enough, the defence are deserving of less criticism for me, did ok considering the injuries - Aarons and Lewis both did ok overall (Lewis a bit slow to acclimatise but improved). Godfrey who I thought did well in a makeshift defence with a different partner every few games and dealing with his own injury. Ok we shipped quite a lot of goals, but really the problem was the other end of the pitch - lack of goals and lack of effective midfield play.......

I agree with the wider point that the players like Pukki and Buendia aren't deserved of praise in the same way as normal if the team is not successful overall.

But coming into the season those two players were our two attacking stars, us doing well relied on them doing well. That the team failed in an attacking sense is a reflection of them failing to consistently hit the heights of the prior season. 

Cantwell on the other hand, was not even mentioned in the same breath as Pukki / Buendia before the season started, and most of us wanted him to be loaned out to another championship club. Clearly then he far surpassed our expectations of him. 

That IMO deserves praise and you appear to have completely brushed past it! 

I've said it before but I have never seen a player come back from a preseason looking so much better like that. His improvement was stark and he instantly looked a differently player from the very first game at Liverpool. 

He went from a player who showed a few flashes (but not a great deal at all) in the championship, to one of our best attacking players.

He's far from the finished article and is still finding his rhythm this season following the niggling injuries, but I have no doubts he will start producing again during the next half season provided he can stay fit. 

On your last paragraph - I don't entirely agree, IMO clearly both attacking and defending were a huge issue, any defence which concedes two goals a game is going to get relegated...

Edited January 12, 2021 by Hank shoots Skyler

[Crabbycanary3 994]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

Oh well, it makes a kind of sense to me. I don't really think that any player in a team that is relegated is deserving of that much praise. Todd, started well and faded until the last couple of weeks of the season when he upped his game. Pukki started well, lost a bit of form. Emi, started well, faded, then he too showed a bit more near the end of the season. You name them they all had their down side.

Funnily enough, the defence are deserving of less criticism for me, did ok considering the injuries - Aarons and Lewis both did ok overall (Lewis a bit slow to acclimatise but improved). Godfrey who I thought did well in a makeshift defence with a different partner every few games and dealing with his own injury. Ok we shipped quite a lot of goals, but really the problem was the other end of the pitch - lack of goals and lack of effective midfield play.......

Cannot see at all, why the defence are deserving of less criticism. Equal at the very least perhaps, but certainly not less.

I know that teams defend from the front etc, but there are plenty of examples where a defender (Godfrey included) made an individual error, and we conceded a goal. Any goal conceded at that level,  has the chance of being totally impactive on a result, because of the nous/execution of tactics etc that Prem teams can implement. Plenty of team's midfields concede possession many times, but then it is down to the defence to step in and nullify the danger. At times ours didn't do that so both midfield and defence are equally culpable wouldn't you say as neither did their jobs and we conceded?

Godfrey and Todd are the same ages/experience , yet you decide to lavish more praise on BG from last season. I (and a few others on here by the look of the replies) don't get it. 

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Crabbycanary3

[lake district canary 4,531]

54 minutes ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

Godfrey and Todd are the same ages/experience , yet you decide to lavish more praise on BG from last season. I (and a few others on here by the look of the replies) don't get it.

The difference is I loved Ben's attitude and application and was never ever even once able to question that. Todd has shown varying degrees of application and focus ever since he got in the team - and I fully get that he is a creative player so will have ups and  downs to go with that, but there it is. 

All players are open to criticism, or ought to be and we all have our favourites and not so favourites. I am warming to Todd and that he is showing signs of being the consistent and effective player that I think he could be, but he has a way to go before I will be shouting his praises without reserve, which is what some people seem to be demanding. He has work to do to convince me and for what it's worth I think he will do it, but until then I will praise him when he does well and criticise him when I think he needs criticising.