Is Hugill any better than Morris?

[C.I.D 302]

10 minutes ago, pete said:

just to put the record straight Morris scored a cracker for MK, close control and good finish after long run.  Hugill needs to do the same.

Maclean....Stieperman ? Step aside as No 1 scapegoats .............Let's hear it for Jordan Hugill 👍

[BroadstairsR 2,161]

3 minutes ago, C.I.D said:

Maclean....Stieperman ? Step aside as No 1 scapegoats .............Let's hear it for Jordan Hugill 👍

He doesn't qualify yet. He hasn't played enough minutes.

[sgncfc 1,227]

1 hour ago, BroadstairsR said:

The opening post is irrelevant. The OP is being a bit of a tease.

It's not a question of whether he is better than Morris, better than Idah or even better than Dean Coney it's more a question of whether he is capable of filling in for Pukki should the need arise.

So far it seems to be a negative, and I, for one, am getting a peed off geeing the situation up by listening to all the excuses as to why he's contributed Sweet Fanny Adams during the opportunities that he has been afforded.

We reportedly tinkered with the game plan (hardly a credible Plan B though) against Watford to presumably nourish his strengths. All I remember him doing was neglecting an obvious lay-off with a highly speculative and ultimately pathetic attempt at goal. I don't think that the ball went anywhere near his head, and he's no Tony Hateley or Keith Scott 😄😄😄 at the best of times. He certainly failed to rattle a strong Watford back-line at all or with anything and I was left miffed that we lost a potential hit man 😉 in Cantwell for that limited contribution.

It's not simply a question of unfairly rampaging against a player who hasn't been given the opportunity to impress. He has, albeit in a limited way. It's not scapegoating. It's not premature and it's not unfair.. If he's not good enough then so be it. We want to get promoted this season after all and it's often fine margins.

Ok! I'll melt. He was once rated at nearly £10m by an experienced manager whose little toe has more experience of the professional game than I ever will have. Farke speaks well of him. We therefore persevere with this player rather than investing in an alternative in some way. However,  if it all comes unstuck give us, all his doubters, the opportunity to say, "I told you so."

So it was presumably a complete coincidence that when he came on with others, we suddenly found some space in midfield and started creating openings? He didn't contribute to that by moving the Watford centre backs around at all? They didn't have to start worrying that maybe we had a different way of playing? Is it really Hugill's fault that the ball never went near his head? Do you think that might have been the plan, on this occasion?

Hugill is definitely not capable of "filling in for Pukki". I can't believe that is being thrown out as a serious criticism as he's a completely different type of player. He's also not Grant Holt, Iwan Roberts or Dean Ashton. What he is, is a type of player we do not have. So in buying him it introduces a different threat that we otherwise do not have. Sometimes it will work (Rotherham); sometimes it won't. Sometimes people like you and me won't be able to tell if it's worked or not because, as you say, there are people who know more about it than we do.

But we are 21 games into a season and he has started 4 of them. As he hasn't scored 20 goals he must obviously be toilet.

[Newtopia 517]

I thought Hugill was okay when he came on against Watford.  I even did not mind the moment when he took the shot opposed to laying it back was down, he was trying to make something happen.   My worry is that he is not sure how to fit in yet.  We created more when he came on, and he was part of that.

[BroadstairsR 2,161]

Perhaps you should read the match report as your memory of the game itself seems somewhat skewed by your apparent devotion to Jordan Hugill and his various array of talents.

Example:

"The first half proved a battle of brains against brawn, with City dominating possession but lacking the final ball, with Max Aarons testing Ben Foster with a low shot early on."

So we didn't "suddenly find some space in midfield" then. We couldn't have done if there is some truth in the fact that we dominated possession in the first half. We created openings, but were let down by the final ball it seems. 

I won't bother to go into anymore, can't be arsed.

Suffice to say that others, especially Vrancic, and the change in formation to five in midfield and a narrower approach with two up front (ref: match report again) shifted the balance against a team intent on preserving a scoreline. 

That Hugill "worried" their centre-backs by his running around is debateable, but they didn't seem overly concerned by his introduction to me.

Still good to know we have striker who can at least move around.

If Pukki get gets injured we could be stuffed so let's hope upon hope that Hugill is finally able to exibit all these wonderful assets you attribute to him.

All you achieved by bringing up mention of those past greats was to remind us of what we were missing.

P.S. That was in answer to the penultimate post. I note that Newtopia feels that Hugill was ok. Is ok what we needed though? Anyhow his far more level headed appraisal of Hugill's contribution was appreciated and far more accurate, imo. It's not unusual for a team chasing a one goal deficit to apply more pressure and create more chances towards the end of a game though. It nearly always seems to be the case. Is it in the head or is it throwing caution to the wind?

Edited December 29, 2020 by BroadstairsR

[king canary 7,603]

54 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

So it was presumably a complete coincidence that when he came on with others, we suddenly found some space in midfield and started creating openings? He didn't contribute to that by moving the Watford centre backs around at all? They didn't have to start worrying that maybe we had a different way of playing? Is it really Hugill's fault that the ball never went near his head? Do you think that might have been the plan, on this occasion?

Hugill is definitely not capable of "filling in for Pukki". I can't believe that is being thrown out as a serious criticism as he's a completely different type of player. He's also not Grant Holt, Iwan Roberts or Dean Ashton. What he is, is a type of player we do not have. So in buying him it introduces a different threat that we otherwise do not have. Sometimes it will work (Rotherham); sometimes it won't. Sometimes people like you and me won't be able to tell if it's worked or not because, as you say, there are people who know more about it than we do.

But we are 21 games into a season and he has started 4 of them. As he hasn't scored 20 goals he must obviously be toilet.

Classic case or correlation does not equal causation. Yes he came on, but we also changed formation and personnel in midfield. It is impossible to know for sure how much Hugill came on changed things but my guess would be not as much as the formation switch and Vrancic getting involved.

Also, you don't do your argument any favours with ridiculous statements like the last one. 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

4 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Perhaps you should read the match report as your memory of the game itslf seems somewhat skewed by your apparent devotion to Jordan Hugill and his various array of talents.

Example:

"The first half proved a battle of brains against brawn, with City dominating possession but lacking the final ball, with Max Aarons testing Ben Foster with a low shot early on."

So we didn't "suddenly find some space in midfield" then. We couldn't have done if there is some truth in the fact that we dominated possession. We crfeated openings, but were let down by the final ball it seems. 

I won't bother to go into anymore, can't be arsed.

Suffice to say that others, especially Vrancic, and the change in formation to five in midfield and a narrower approach with two up front (ref: match report again) shifted the balance against a team intent on preserving a scoreline. 

That Hugill "worried" their centre-backs by his running around is debateable, but they didn't seem overly concerned by his introduction to me.

Still good to know we have striker who can at least move around.

 

If Pukki get gets injured we could be stuffed so let's hope upon hope that Hugill is finally able to exibit all these wonderful assets you attribute to him.

Who's being a  tease now then Broado? I dont think anyone has attributed   JH with an array of wonderful assets , just that he works hard, gets busy and doesn't mind a bit of rough and tumble. If you  saw the interview with him a couple of weeks back , youd see that that's  exactly  his game , he knows it and I strongly suspect  DF does too. Give him a chance, eh. 

[BroadstairsR 2,161]

1 minute ago, wcorkcanary said:

Who's being a  tease now then Broado? I dont think anyone has attributed   JH with an array of wonderful assets , just that he works hard, gets busy and doesn't mind a bit of rough and tumble. If you  saw the interview with him a couple of weeks back , youd see that that's  exactly  his game , he knows it and I strongly suspect  DF does too. Give him a chance, eh. 

Shush. 😉

I've added a bit more. Always worth a read.

I notice that you didn't include goalscoring in your list of Hugill's attributes, btw.

[king canary 7,603]

1 minute ago, wcorkcanary said:

Who's being a  tease now then Broado? I dont think anyone has attributed   JH with an array of wonderful assets , just that he works hard, gets busy and doesn't mind a bit of rough and tumble. If you  saw the interview with him a couple of weeks back , youd see that that's  exactly  his game , he knows it and I strongly suspect  DF does too. Give him a chance, eh. 

Working hard is the absolute minimum I expect from a professional football to be honest. 

I think his main assets are likely strength and aerial ability, neither of which make much difference in our system. Plan b is nice but Hugill is so far removed from our plan a I dont see how he fits.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

It's a valid question, but criticising Hugill's goalscoring record whilst favouring Morris is a curious one because his record at Championship level over the past three seasons is 20 in 85, whereas Morris' record at League One level is 14 in 91.

I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I was pointing out that a manager might have considered Iwan to be persevering with RE: his huge weight gain, safe in the knowledge that under 2 stone of fat there was a 20 goal a season striker in there somewhere.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Working hard is the absolute minimum I expect from a professional football to be honest

Of course, not debatable. 

 

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think his main assets are likely strength and aerial ability, neither of which make much difference in our system. Plan b is nice but Hugill is so far removed from our plan a I dont see how he fits.

He fits a bit better if the rest of the team mix it up a bit. I do agree  that he doesnt  look like a full time replacement should Pukki be out for any length of time. 

Really dont know the answer  as to who we need as no2 to Teemu, cos if he stays fit and scoring he'll  play nearly  all  of  nearly all games. Can anyone name someone who can do what Pukki does and would  be happy to perhaps not get too much game time. The only solution  I can think of is to find Pukki 0.2 and give them both an equal run out, spread the load..... that could cost a few quid ..and of course doesnt guarantee it would work out.  

'Football Manager'   me says  get someone in as similar to  Pukki as poss.

Pragmatic me says we'll  go with what we have and make it work.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

But we are 21 games into a season and he has started 4 of them. As he hasn't scored 20 goals he must obviously be toilet.

Hugill said himself that he has come to score goals, and that's his job.

So we don't really need you to mitigate with all the other stuff that he allegedly offers us. 

The simple fact of the matter is that we signed a goal shy Jordan Rhodes, who is still goal shy now, and he provided a greater goal threat than Jordan Hugill has so far.

As Farke said.... we need 30 goals from Idah, Hugill and Pukki to go up. Thus far we have 2 from Idah and Hugill, which leaves Pukki needing to find 28. 

There is of course some truth in him needing minutes more frequently, hopefully he'll improve accordingly, but 1 goal in 433 minutes of play (a penalty at that) is simply not very impressive at all. 

6 goals in 1010 in the league for Jordan Rhodes, who like Hugill was largely restricted to bits off the bench and the occasional start.

Hugill was brought in to score goals, and thus far isn't achieving that. We all hope that he does chip in with a few, because it will help our team (and because he seems a decent fella) we're all just saying that its not looking imminent. 

As things stand, I think Rhodes on a season long loan would have been the better bet this season - and he'd have been a very underwhelming signing. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

17 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Hugill said himself that he has come to score goals, and that's his job.

So we don't really need you to mitigate with all the other stuff that he allegedly offers us. 

The simple fact of the matter is that we signed a goal shy Jordan Rhodes, who is still goal shy now, and he provided a greater goal threat than Jordan Hugill has so far.

As Farke said.... we need 30 goals from Idah, Hugill and Pukki to go up. Thus far we have 2 from Idah and Hugill, which leaves Pukki needing to find 28. 

There is of course some truth in him needing minutes more frequently, hopefully he'll improve accordingly, but 1 goal in 433 minutes of play (a penalty at that) is simply not very impressive at all. 

6 goals in 1010 in the league for Jordan Rhodes, who like Hugill was largely restricted to bits off the bench and the occasional start.

Hugill was brought in to score goals, and thus far isn't achieving that. We all hope that he does chip in with a few, because it will help our team (and because he seems a decent fella) we're all just saying that its not looking imminent. 

As things stand, I think Rhodes on a season long loan would have been the better bet this season - and he'd have been a very underwhelming signing. 

So, Rhodes up front ,Lee Camp in goal. 😇 shuffle your pack Teemu, who makes up the rest of the team in your  humble  opinion? 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,811]

26 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I was pointing out that a manager might have considered Iwan to be persevering with RE: his huge weight gain, safe in the knowledge that under 2 stone of fat there was a 20 goal a season striker in there somewhere.

I wasn't referring to anyone specifically, but Hugill's goalscoring record has been criticised quite often on this forum and it was mentioned again earlier in the thread.

[Samwam27 527]

8 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

You ever read Iwan's book? He let himself get out of shape and overweight, he basically got an ultimatum to lose lots of weight or p*ss off.... And he radically changed his way of life. 

Comparison with Hugill makes no sense. And that's before you consider the fact that Iwan had been prolific earlier in his career.... Hugill hasn't. 

 

Teemu, you've misunderstood my entire post. I don't think there's any comparison to Morris as the to have operated at different levels with different success.

And I'm certainly not making any attempt to compare against Roberts. The reference to Roberts (or I could easily state Thierry Henry, who wasn't a great success in his first season) was simply not to judge Hugill now, in his first season with us, especially as he's had such limited game time. He's not had anywhere near enough minutes, or with the right formation.

That being said, I don't think he's adjusting to our system.  I think you said getting in Rhodes over Hugill would have been a more sensible suggestion and I completely agree, as Rhodes knows adn had adapted to our system.

Hugill does give us something very different, with a big physical presence, but I don't imo think we've played to his strengths when he comes on. It's been difficult with injuries that we haven't had the wide players available. Either way, we need to give him more time this season and if he's our plan B, then we need to change our formation when bringing him on.

PS no I haven't read Iwans book, but you stated Hugill hasn't been prolific in his previous career. Doesn't Hugills 15 goals last season count for anything then. He also scored 13 for preston in 16/17 at this level, and 10 the season prior to that. That might not be prolific, but that's a decent tally ay the level we're currently playing at. Roberts certainly scored more at Leicester (both championship and Prem) before joining Norwich, and more with Huddersfield, but that was second and third divisions

So back to the op, I'm not trying to compare Hugill to Roberts, never was, but comparing Hugill to Morris, Hugill, imho wins hands down     

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

35 minutes ago, Samwam27 said:

 

PS no I haven't read Iwans book

Should do, classic piece of footy literature - really unique in the way that it was done, a diary of the Worthington promotion season. 

I recently re-read it having acquired a signed hardback copy on eBay for a few quid.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

So, Rhodes up front ,Lee Camp in goal. 😇 shuffle your pack Teemu, who makes up the rest of the team in your  humble  opinion? 

In a cruel twist of fate Corkie, we may be about to see what not signing another experienced keeper to cover an injury crisis means....and I hope all those that said they'd prefer Barden as our number 2, despite him being probably our 6th choice keeper at this stage when all are fit, are about to be proved correct. 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

4 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

In a cruel twist of fate Corkie, we may be about to see what not signing another experienced keeper to cover an injury crisis means....and I hope all those that said they'd prefer Barden as our number 2, despite him being probably our 6th choice keeper at this stage when all are fit, are about to be proved correct. 

 

Me too , fortunately  I  never entered that discussion, so unlike some, have nothing to  prove. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 minute ago, wcorkcanary said:

Me too , fortunately  I  never entered that discussion, so unlike some, have nothing to  prove. 

Its not about point scoring or being proved correct.

I have no choice but to hope that Barden plays a blinder, and that would make me wrong! 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

24 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Its not about point scoring or being proved correct.

I have no choice but to hope that Barden plays a blinder, and that would make me wrong! 

Cool eh !!

[Paul101 93]

21 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I get the point about him needing more of a chance, and that the FA Cup may give him a chance to impress.

But that fee looks ludicrious for a 1 goal in 4.5 games Championship striker.

I love how people manipulate stats to suit    last season his record was a lot better and he was involved in nearly every goal

 

he cost a couple of million peanuts in the grand scheme of things and gives an option

 

but if you feel the need to have a player to pick on and slag off and that makes you feel vindicated carry on

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

10 minutes ago, Paul101 said:

I love how people manipulate stats to suit    last season his record was a lot better and he was involved in nearly every goal

he cost a couple of million peanuts in the grand scheme of things and gives an option

but if you feel the need to have a player to pick on and slag off and that makes you feel vindicated carry on

Saying that Hugill isn't a £9m striker is not picking on him, its common sense. 

[Clint 221]

I’m not wanting to make Hugill a scapegoat but he got himself in a great position again tonight and simply did nothing with the ball. Even the commentators said so. Until we start getting some crosses into the box there is zero point on bringing him on, Omotoye would be a better option. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Clint

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Doesn’t suit our style - no idea why he was purchased. We need another striker, IMO, who can score goals or we could come unstuck with an injury to pukki. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Doesn’t suit our style - no idea why he was purchased. We need another striker, IMO, who can score goals or we could come unstuck with an injury to pukki. 

Drmic?

[Ken Hairy 3,771]

The Hugill transfer will go down as one of the stranger Webber dealings, especially as we paid half decent money for him. I'm not saying there's not a half decent EFL player in there, but he never has abs never will suit a Daniel Farke side. May as well stuck with Drmic.

[BroadstairsR 2,161]

Last night proved above all that we desperately need that 'new dimension' that Hugill was supposed to provide.

The thinking behind the signing was sound. The signing it's self seems flawed.

It is now up to Jordan Hugill to justify his role. That he has thus far failed to do this in quite an emphatic way is the cause of threads like this.

Give him the cup game. Provide him with the ammunition and if he fails get rid asap, and sign Akinfemwo instead 😉

While they are at it  perhaps they should consider widening the pitch as much as is legally and physically possible in order to stretch these packed defences that little bit more. It has become that critical.

(Thinks. Is that is a serious suggestion or just tomfoolery?)

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

3 goals in last 3 games for Carlton Morris! 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Another one, and could be a Premier League player next season! 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

On 29/12/2020 at 01:06, Tetteys Jig said:

he's proving to be a solid league 1 player and could probably do a job in the championship lower down.

Or in the top 6 perhaps!