When will the UK rejoin the EU?

[Mr Apples 1,317]

Most people that say they have a great sense of humour watch Mr's Brown's Boys...but then still need someone to explain it to them. 🤣

Just an observation of course.

Apples

[Barbe bleu 812]

40 minutes ago, Mr Apples said:

Most people that say they have a great sense of humour watch Mr's Brown's Boys...but then still need someone to explain it to them. 🤣

Just an observation of course.

Apples

Hang on.   Are you suggesting that MBB is actually funny if you have a highly tuned sense of humour?  If this is your position you need to resign from posting here as you will never be taken seriously again. 

There is a awful lot of nonsense posted on the non football pages but this might be the most ludicrous ever.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I have a great sense of humour; you're just not funny.

Oh dear, a second delusion........!

[Mr Apples 1,317]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. 🤣

Apples

Edited November 5, 2022 by Mr Apples

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

12 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Like the hippies said in the 60's 'just need the old to die and then there will be nobody left to vote conservative!'   

A twenty-year old hippy in 1967 would now be seventy-five years old, the age group most likely to vote conservative. So it seems as people mature and gain experience of the world, and wisdom from their experience they increasingly vote conservative.

When you die you stop voting, both labour and Conservative. (not withstanding the Labour postal vote scam)

[Herman 9,712]

Hippies are renowned for taking copious amounts of drugs......

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

39 minutes ago, Herman said:

Hippies are renowned for taking copious amounts of drugs......

Ah great! My generation getting another good kicking. Drugs🥳 this time. it only needs Big Fish to turn up to slag off our supposed social selfishness and my Sunday will be complete...😍

[Herman 9,712]

37 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Ah great! My generation getting another good kicking. Drugs🥳 this time. it only needs Big Fish to turn up to slag off our supposed social selfishness and my Sunday will be complete...😍

Early doors of this whole brexit debacle I was quite quick on blaming it on the age of voter, which looking at the stats was quite easy to do, an easy scapegoat so to speak. But after talking to people, going on numerous Remain marches etc. the age question became less relevant. It played a small part but wasn't a defining feature of the vote. A massive portion of the elder demographic could see that brexit was a crock too.

Education played a part too. But then I am no more better educated than some of my age group, who also voted in their droves for this nonsense. Why was I not susceptible to the propaganda while many others were? I don't think we can just put it down to brexiters being thick, although some clearly are.

A good comprehensive study on information gathering, critical thinking and why people vote for certain things, that doesn't have the hand of nefarious politicos on it, would be good.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

20 minutes ago, Herman said:

Early doors of this whole brexit debacle I was quite quick on blaming it on the age of voter, which looking at the stats was quite easy to do, an easy scapegoat so to speak. But after talking to people, going on numerous Remain marches etc. the age question became less relevant. It played a small part but wasn't a defining feature of the vote. A massive portion of the elder demographic could see that brexit was a crock too.

Education played a part too. But then I am no more better educated than some of my age group, who also voted in their droves for this nonsense. Why was I not susceptible to the propaganda while many others were? I don't think we can just put it down to brexiters being thick, although some clearly are.

A good comprehensive study on information gathering, critical thinking and why people vote for certain things, that doesn't have the hand of nefarious politicos on it, would be good.

I haven't looked into this at all. I think some studies have shown that the more educated you were, which is not necessarily the same as more intelligent, and the more travelled, you were likely to vote Remain. I suspect there were regional factors. In an economically depressed area, and particularly one where the main local industry had declined or even vanished, it was probably pretty easy to convince voters that was the fault of the EU, even if it wasn't true.

In fact EU aid to such areas had been a help. And anyone visiting far-flung parts of the UK, such as the Outer Hebrides, would come across vital infrastructure projects part-funded by Brussels. But I remember one little survey of I think it was south Wales, where EU money had been poured in, and people were asked why they'd voted Leave. The answer? They thought they were giving the Tory government a good kicking...

[Yellow Fever 3,743]

34 minutes ago, Herman said:

Early doors of this whole brexit debacle I was quite quick on blaming it on the age of voter, which looking at the stats was quite easy to do, an easy scapegoat so to speak. But after talking to people, going on numerous Remain marches etc. the age question became less relevant. It played a small part but wasn't a defining feature of the vote. A massive portion of the elder demographic could see that brexit was a crock too.

Education played a part too. But then I am no more better educated than some of my age group, who also voted in their droves for this nonsense. Why was I not susceptible to the propaganda while many others were? I don't think we can just put it down to brexiters being thick, although some clearly are.

A good comprehensive study on information gathering, critical thinking and why people vote for certain things, that doesn't have the hand of nefarious politicos on it, would be good.

It was clearly correlated with an age and education. That's very different to saying every elderly or poorly educated voter voted for Brexit. You can clearly lack formal education but be bright and inquiring, be elderly but not held hostage by nostalgia. I suspect many of the later will of been self selecting on your marches Herman.

As to the deeper reasons behind that one can discuss but it would be interesting today, with hindsight, to see if the same correlations still hold or are even stronger! Which 'groups' statistically still support Brexit as this is more relevant going forward?

I think I read somewhere at the time that from the statistics the 'typical' Brexit voter was a poorly educated, elderly East Anglican.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Yellow Fever
Much the same PP

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

11 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Oh dear, a second delusion........!

You say I'm deluded? You talk about Brexit like it can still be stopped rather than having already happened...

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

8 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

A twenty-year old hippy in 1967 would now be seventy-five years old, the age group most likely to vote conservative. So it seems as people mature and gain experience of the world, and wisdom from their experience they increasingly vote conservative.

When you die you stop voting, both labour and Conservative. (not withstanding the Labour postal vote scam)

The older people get, the more they tend to like the status quo, stability, and certainty. Leaving the EU ran completely contrary to all of those. Voting to leave the EU was a triumph of emotion over reason. Now reality has kicked in, people regret it, but there's no going back. It's simply finding a way to make the best of things going forward and people who still look back to the EU simply aren't open-minded enough to evaluate the strategic choices post-Brexit objectively. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,743]

19 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The older people get, the more they tend to like the status quo, stability, and certainty. Leaving the EU ran completely contrary to all of those. Voting to leave the EU was a triumph of emotion over reason. Now reality has kicked in, people regret it, but there's no going back. It's simply finding a way to make the best of things going forward and people who still look back to the EU simply aren't open-minded enough to evaluate the strategic choices post-Brexit objectively. 

 

You do see things as black and white LYB.

As to your first point - I think the Farage Brexit lobby tried to frighten people (or play to their darker sides) on immigration - 'an invasion - 80M Turks and so on'. Brexit to those people seemed like a choice not for 'change' but for simpler older times - a world they knew. Staying in the EU was portrayed as 'change' ! Of course recent events have given the lie to all of that nonsense.

On your second point - In reality there are many shades of grey in-between being fully in or out of the EU.

Most of us would agree that formally re-entering the EU as full members would be a large task as both the UK and EU will have changed (simpler for Scotland) - but the CU or SM would be smaller and simpler steps and frankly now quite likely.  A 'Norway', Switzerland, EFTA and so on all seem so much more sensible than where we are notwithstanding the embryonic CPTTP. 

Lastly - despite your false black and white dichotomy, in a democracy, we always have a right to change our minds as the polls seem to suggest is happening.

[MooreMarriot 307]

9 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

A twenty-year old hippy in 1967 would now be seventy-five years old, the age group most likely to vote conservative. So it seems as people mature and gain experience of the world, and wisdom from their experience they increasingly vote conservative.

When you die you stop voting, both labour and Conservative. (not withstanding the Labour postal vote scam)

As people mature their brains shrink and they lose many thousands of brain cells each day . By the time you have reached 75 years of age you will have lost at least 10% of the neurons in your brain and so increasingly vote Conservative.

[Herman 9,712]

14 minutes ago, MooreMarriot said:

As people mature their brains shrink and they lose many thousands of brain cells each day . By the time you have reached 75 years of age you will have lost at least 10% of the neurons in your brain and so increasingly vote Conservative.

😉

[sonyc 5,489]

31 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The older people get, the more they tend to like the status quo, stability, and certainty. Leaving the EU ran completely contrary to all of those. Voting to leave the EU was a triumph of emotion over reason. Now reality has kicked in, people regret it, but there's no going back. It's simply finding a way to make the best of things going forward and people who still look back to the EU simply aren't open-minded enough to evaluate the strategic choices post-Brexit objectively. 

If that is true LYB I'm not sure what the "triumph of emotion" was about. What was the emotional pull founded on? Our sovereignty? That's a ludicrously abstract term. Having spoken to friends who voted Brexit all that they could say was that they didn't want another authority having a say over our UK affairs. They gave some very weak examples but nothing that justified (a) this EU 'authority' being this ogre (b) nothing that actually affected their current lives! It was all a case of the straw man. The power of their emotion however was palpable. Thinking about it, it reminded me just how much some folk (and I should emphasise the word 'some') can be manipulated by the press (and we all know which interests they protect) and some parts of our culture. I would also be subjected to comments about asian people and asylum seekers when playing golf (I am a very irregular player I ought to say...actually now an ex-golf player). So, my conclusion is that the EU somehow occupied a 'foreigner' role in the minds of some people, an ugliness perhaps, something they needed in their lives to project onto.

There is a link to education I might agree but there are also many, on this very board, who are clearly intelligent who voted Brexit. Many will not even wonder out loud that they might even have got it wrong, because they don't wish to accept that. They are still convinced and would tell you how stupid you were in a blink of an eye. Only Well be Back as far as I can see has thought more about it and concluded he was duped. Full respect to him and that for me is a sign of a fully thinking, sane person. Then, I am someone who often reflects very long and hard and wonders if I have been open-minded. That probably harks back to my former career and way of working where I would always assume I might be wrong (which was important in my role - to be very open-minded - in dealing with the kinds of things I did. Regular supervision too was a brilliant challenge to one's thinking and understanding). Life is a double-edged sword. People are not always as thye present.

I don't subscribe to the older one is the more conservative one becomes obviously. And talk of wisdom is arrant rubbish. For sure, we learn as we age but we also tend to concretise / reify our experience as we get older. It leads to someone being very one-sided and fixed in views. Wisdom is a loaded word. Fancy living your whole life and all you've learned is telling people how wrong they are, being smug and insulting of others. If one is an idealist, you get slaughtered on here! It is seen as the height of naive stupidity. But you just have to take it on the chin and try not to respond.

I've concluded Brexit had a quality of some fascist movements, where a braod number of people were persuaded and manipulated. Like Hitler before, it started to create a new message - then it was about the Jews and now it is the French etc. Just check the Daily Mail or Express and you'll see the views expressed. No wonder Braverman has been warned this weekend about her language ("invasions") and how it fuels some people (the bloke who tried to fire bomb for example is an immediate example). Those kinds of words DO influence some people, even if in the background. Nothing much changes I guess and history repeats. The language of this present government is utterly non-English in the way I've come to understand my nationality over the years (tolerance, humour, community, kindness etc) and I've increasingly felt very disconnected. I don't understand or like the English fans abroad for example. I wish I was more Scottish or more Irish and far more Welsh than I am!

 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,743]

5 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I don't subscribe to the older one is the more conservative one becomes obviously. And talk of wisdom is arrant rubbish. For sure, we learn as we age but we also tend to concretise / reify our experience as we get older. It leads to someone being very one-sided and fixed in views. Wisdom is a loaded word. Fancy living your whole life and all you've learned is telling people how wrong they are, being smug and insulting of others. If one is an idealist, you get slaughtered on here! It is seen as the height of naive stupidity. But you just have to take it on the chin and try not to respond.

There are a lot of 'old English' sayings that capture this 'truth' -

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks"

"Things were better in my day" (Apparently of Roman origin!)

"Looking back with rose tinted glasses" etc....

The list of phrases is extensive.

 

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You say I'm deluded? You talk about Brexit like it can still be stopped rather than having already happened...

There you go, deluded again or perhaps just plain stupid since I do not talk like that and nor does anyone else on here - it would be pretty difficult to discuss rejoining the EU or how damaging Brexit has been to the UK from a position of believing that we had never left 😂

As usual you much prefer to rebut or simply dismiss points that people have never actually made than to try and discuss/rebut the points they really made - that is your stock in trade and it is both unimpressive and unconvincing, rather like your CPTPP delusions.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

36 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

There you go, deluded again or perhaps just plain stupid since I do not talk like that and nor does anyone else on here - it would be pretty difficult to discuss rejoining the EU or how damaging Brexit has been to the UK from a position of believing that we had never left 😂

As usual you much prefer to rebut or simply dismiss points that people have never actually made than to try and discuss/rebut the points they really made - that is your stock in trade and it is both unimpressive and unconvincing, rather like your CPTPP delusions.

You, on the other hand just repeatedly make accusations of delusion just because my opinions don't suit your own blinkered, narrow-minded attitude. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

If that is true LYB I'm not sure what the "triumph of emotion" was about. What was the emotional pull founded on? Our sovereignty? That's a ludicrously abstract term. Having spoken to friends who voted Brexit all that they could say was that they didn't want another authority having a say over our UK affairs. They gave some very weak examples but nothing that justified (a) this EU 'authority' being this ogre (b) nothing that actually affected their current lives! It was all a case of the straw man. The power of their emotion however was palpable. Thinking about it, it reminded me just how much some folk (and I should emphasise the word 'some') can be manipulated by the press (and we all know which interests they protect) and some parts of our culture. I would also be subjected to comments about asian people and asylum seekers when playing golf (I am a very irregular player I ought to say...actually now an ex-golf player). So, my conclusion is that the EU somehow occupied a 'foreigner' role in the minds of some people, an ugliness perhaps, something they needed in their lives to project onto.

There is a link to education I might agree but there are also many, on this very board, who are clearly intelligent who voted Brexit. Many will not even wonder out loud that they might even have got it wrong, because they don't wish to accept that. They are still convinced and would tell you how stupid you were in a blink of an eye. Only Well be Back as far as I can see has thought more about it and concluded he was duped. Full respect to him and that for me is a sign of a fully thinking, sane person. Then, I am someone who often reflects very long and hard and wonders if I have been open-minded. That probably harks back to my former career and way of working where I would always assume I might be wrong (which was important in my role - to be very open-minded - in dealing with the kinds of things I did. Regular supervision too was a brilliant challenge to one's thinking and understanding). Life is a double-edged sword. People are not always as thye present.

I don't subscribe to the older one is the more conservative one becomes obviously. And talk of wisdom is arrant rubbish. For sure, we learn as we age but we also tend to concretise / reify our experience as we get older. It leads to someone being very one-sided and fixed in views. Wisdom is a loaded word. Fancy living your whole life and all you've learned is telling people how wrong they are, being smug and insulting of others. If one is an idealist, you get slaughtered on here! It is seen as the height of naive stupidity. But you just have to take it on the chin and try not to respond.

I've concluded Brexit had a quality of some fascist movements, where a braod number of people were persuaded and manipulated. Like Hitler before, it started to create a new message - then it was about the Jews and now it is the French etc. Just check the Daily Mail or Express and you'll see the views expressed. No wonder Braverman has been warned this weekend about her language ("invasions") and how it fuels some people (the bloke who tried to fire bomb for example is an immediate example). Those kinds of words DO influence some people, even if in the background. Nothing much changes I guess and history repeats. The language of this present government is utterly non-English in the way I've come to understand my nationality over the years (tolerance, humour, community, kindness etc) and I've increasingly felt very disconnected. I don't understand or like the English fans abroad for example. I wish I was more Scottish or more Irish and far more Welsh than I am!

 

 

Isn't it interesting how the face of anti-immigration sentiment has a much more diverse face itself now, though? 

It's complicated and there are no simple answers, but not to appreciate or respect the importance of cultural identity in the mix of geopolitical identities is the reason that Brexit happened, and Catalan and Scottish independence continue to rumble on in spite of being at least as practically absurd as Brexit was. I'd also suggest that the decision to reject your own culture so forcefully may also be a barrier to you ever understanding what happened. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,489]

7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Isn't it interesting how the face of anti-immigration sentiment has a much more diverse face itself now, though? 

It's complicated and there are no simple answers, but not to appreciate or respect the importance of cultural identity in the mix of geopolitical identities is the reason that Brexit happened, and Catalan and Scottish independence continue to rumble on in spite of being at least as practically absurd as Brexit was. I'd also suggest that the decision to reject your own culture so forcefully may also be a barrier to you ever understanding what happened. 

It is complicated yes. And if I was living in Scotland I would, I believe, also vote to leave England. I'm being honest. Likewise, my Welsh ancestry and renewed knowledge of lives led by my ancestors also gives me a longing somewhere deep inside for Welsh independence. I completely understand their feelings about Westminster for example, about the saesneg mentality.

I reckon you're right when you say my feelings of rejection of my own culture (whatever that actually means, as that is a difficult issue in itself...assume you mean Englishness here) provides a barrier but also it makes me a bit of a hypocrite. And I'm open to admit that I don't fully understand why things have happened - can only ruminate. Also, should say, I've come across a large English community of people who are very open minded and a joy to be around and communicate with. It isn't black and white. But Brexit is definitely a dark period in our national life. A very sad event.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You, on the other hand just repeatedly make accusations of delusion just because my opinions don't suit your own blinkered, narrow-minded attitude. 

You seem to have conveniently forgotten that it was you that started throwing the accusations of delusion around - par for the course really 😂

[Surfer 1,547]

The role of the media cannot be ignored. 

Decades of propaganda can steer an electorate one way or another. And you have to concede that the print media in UK and TV media in US has a massive right wing bias. 

Full public funding of the UK's media and political parties would cost the country a pittance compared to the economic harm imposed by the interests behind these propaganda campaigns. 

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

7 hours ago, MooreMarriot said:

As people mature their brains shrink and they lose many thousands of brain cells each day . By the time you have reached 75 years of age you will have lost at least 10% of the neurons in your brain and so increasingly vote Conservative.

As the average Conservative voter has a life time income higher than the average leftie, it follows that the average Conservative is much smarter than the average leftie. So while you may be correct about the aged brain having fewer neurons (and I assume this is also true for the aged leftie brain) then the aged Conservative neurons are obviously of a higher quality!

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

3 hours ago, Surfer said:

The role of the media cannot be ignored. 

Decades of propaganda can steer an electorate one way or another. And you have to concede that the print media in UK and TV media in US has a massive right wing bias. 

Full public funding of the UK's media and political parties would cost the country a pittance compared to the economic harm imposed by the interests behind these propaganda campaigns. 

The print media matters less and less, and no one under 30 reads a newspaper or magazine. it is social, digital media that matters and the tech giants that dominate are all part of the left-wing cancel culture. They are all protected by legislation that prevents them from being prosecuted for libellous content which allows them to create fake material. Note how Twitter refused to reveal the number of bots on their platform. and also note that it has come to light recent that the Department for Homeland Security and the FBI both colluded with Twitter and Facebook to downvote content that they didn't like.

Hopefully Trump will break up the social media giants on his triumphant return to the Presidency.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,181]

If the average conservative is much smarter.....how come the conservative membership voted in Liz Truss?

[sonyc 5,489]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

As the average Conservative voter has a life time income higher than the average leftie, it follows that the average Conservative is much smarter than the average leftie. So while you may be correct about the aged brain having fewer neurons (and I assume this is also true for the aged leftie brain) then the aged Conservative neurons are obviously of a higher quality!

Thought I would look this up RTB and this was in one of your favourite media outlets a few years back (judging by your views over the years). 

I realise you have your tongue firmly in cheek too when you state that incomes are higher for a Conservative voter.  I doubt it very much.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2095549/Right-wingers-intelligent-left-wingers-says-controversial-study--conservative-politics-lead-people-racist.html

Keep feeding your neurons anyway! I could offer you some of mine.

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by sonyc

[Yellow Fever 3,743]

8 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Thought I would look this up RTB and this was in one of your favourite media outlets a few years back (judging by your views oveer the years). 

I realise you have your tongue firmly in cheek too when you state that incomes are higher for a Conservative voter.  I doubt it very much.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2095549/Right-wingers-intelligent-left-wingers-says-controversial-study--conservative-politics-lead-people-racist.html

Keep feeding your neurons anyway! I could offer you some of mine.

 

When you read this it rings true. No doubt they've also allowed for other veiling factors too.

Tongue in cheek I think RTB has walked feet first into that one 😅 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[Yellow Fever 3,743]

On 06/11/2022 at 12:12, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's complicated and there are no simple answers, but not to appreciate or respect the importance of cultural identity in the mix of geopolitical identities is the reason that Brexit happened

I do like this euphemism 'cultural identity'. It's a catch all for all sorts of good as well as reprehensible views.  If we want immigrants to assimilate into a traditional set of British values that's fine. I suspect however many have a darker understanding of such a phrase.

Indeed, I'm quite sure the Taliban and indeed the Qatari's use exactly  the same phrase to justify their policies. 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I do like this euphemism 'cultural identity'. It's a catch all for all sorts of good as well as reprehensible views.  If we want immigrants to assimilate into a traditional set of British values that's fine. I suspect however many have a darker understanding of such a phrase.

Indeed, I'm quite sure the Taliban and indeed the Qatari's use exactly  the same phrase to justify their policies. 

 

Cultural identity is not a euphemism, nor is it so much about views as customs, attitudes, and behaviour. It can also be vague and intangible, but fundamentally it's the fabric of a cohesive functional society; a framework within which everybody interacts. No society can function without some common ground and values that everybody identifies with, which is why uncontrolled immigration always finishes up getting messy with bad blood everywhere, whatever the country.