Christoph's decision

[Mr Angry 1,554]

1 hour ago, daly said:

Good on you Zimbo

Keep politics out of football

How many more would stand but are afraid of being classed racist

 

 

Opposing racism isn’t political. It’s societal.

[kirku 1,332]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Well the question then is whether the action is wrong or the reaction to it? I guess you've seen the famous photo of the one person refusing to zieg heil at a N*Zi rally? Not allowing a space for neutrality or indecision is pure authoritarianism.

Which is why it's naive not to fill the void - nobody currently knows why he's standing and pieces like the PinkUn article don't move things forward

[Rock The Boat 1,329]

7 minutes ago, kirku said:

Must've missed the "antifa woman in a communist skirt" running for mayor of Bristol, or the diners in Zak's having their "tables overturned" for not "raising the fist".

Could it be that a sporadically organised political movement from another country has very little relevance to the anti-racism protests here? 

Well, they are all taking place under the umbrella of BLM, so there's your linkage.

[kirku 1,332]

10 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I'm guessing you're never going to understand the enormous irony of that post.

I don't find it particularly difficult to see the protests within their own context, despite the fact that the tinderboxes were ignited by the same spark 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Just now, kirku said:

I don't find it particularly difficult to see the protests within their own context, despite the fact that the tinderboxes were ignited by the same spark 

Well we had people at BLM protests in the UK chanting "hands up don't shoot" at unarmed police officers, which kind of hints as to what was going on....

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

17 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Well the question then is whether the action is wrong or the reaction to it? I guess you've seen the famous photo of the one person refusing to zieg heil at a N*Zi rally? Not allowing a space for neutrality or indecision is pure authoritarianism.

You keep trotting this stuff out, but it's totally irrelevant to what's under discussion here. As far as I'm aware nobody is accusing Zimbo of being a racist - therefore people who support the kneeling protest ARE allowing space for neutrality or indecision.

The authoritarianism came from the those who actively booed the taking the knee protest. They could have stayed silent, chatted to their mates, or fiddled with their phones during the massive 15 seconds that it took place - but they didn't - they booed loudly thereby trying to intimidate those taking part in the protest. It's blindingly obvious where the authoritarianism here is coming from isn't it? 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

4 minutes ago, kirku said:

Which is why it's naive not to fill the void - nobody currently knows why he's standing and pieces like the PinkUn article don't move things forward

If people desist from projecting the nastiest possible judgements onto others who happen to have a different opinion to them, there's no "void" to be filled.

[kirku 1,332]

1 minute ago, Mr.Carrow said:

If people desist from projecting the nastiest possible judgements onto others who happen to have a different opinion to them, there's no "void" to be filled.

If my aunt had nuts, she'd be my uncle

[Rock The Boat 1,329]

1 minute ago, kirku said:

If my aunt had nuts, she'd be my uncle

Don't let the trans community see that.  You'll be in big trouble

[Mr.Carrow 376]

3 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

You keep trotting this stuff out, but it's totally irrelevant to what's under discussion here. As far as I'm aware nobody is accusing Zimbo of being a racist - therefore people who support the kneeling protest ARE allowing space for neutrality or indecision.

The authoritarianism came from the those who actively booed the taking the knee protest. They could have stayed silent, chatted to their mates, or fiddled with their phones during the massive 15 seconds that it took place - but they didn't - they booed loudly thereby trying to intimidate those taking part in the protest. It's blindingly obvious where the authoritarianism here is coming from isn't it? 

Kirku does seem to be asking for Zimbo to explain himself ("filling the void"). Why on earth should he? I don't agree with the booing btw.

[kirku 1,332]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Well we had people at BLM protests in the UK chanting "hands up don't shoot" at unarmed police officers, which kind of hints as to what was going on....

Powerful anecdote.

Must be representative of all those protesting for racial equality in the UK. Guess they don't really know what's going on and are just blindly parroting what they've heard happens in America.

Quick, go tell them before this whole protest thing gets really out of hand.

[kirku 1,332]

2 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Don't let the trans community see that.  You'll be in big trouble

Funnily enough, I thought that as I hit send..

[kirku 1,332]

8 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Kirku does seem to be asking for Zimbo to explain himself ("filling the void"). Why on earth should he? I don't agree with the booing btw.

It's incredibly naive not to offer his reasoning. He either controls the narrative or allows space for all kinds of conjecture.

By all accounts, he's an intelligent guy. Did he think that nobody would notice him standing there? He's about 7ft tall.

Edited December 22, 2020 by kirku

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I am watching the Arsenal v ManC game and I must admit, enough of the players and coaching staff looked like taking the knee was more of a chore and couldn't wait to get up quick enough.

I'm not sure it is doing anything more than delaying the start of the game for the racists.

Kaepernick did it during the playing of the anthem, something quite dramatic in the US, and it brought the question of racism to the front pages. And it cost Colin his career, a career good enough to grace the Superbowl in 2012, amongst other things. And he was outlawed by the sports authorities.

Offer footballers the same choice and I'm not sure they would continue.

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

14 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I am watching the Arsenal v ManC game and I must admit, enough of the players and coaching staff looked like taking the knee was more of a chore and couldn't wait to get up quick enough.

I'm not sure it is doing anything more than delaying the start of the game for the racists.

Kaepernick did it during the playing of the anthem, something quite dramatic in the US, and it brought the question of racism to the front pages. And it cost Colin his career, a career good enough to grace the Superbowl in 2012, amongst other things. And he was outlawed by the sports authorities.

Offer footballers the same choice and I'm not sure they would continue.

 

Precisely the sort of authoritarianism that Mr Carrow has been talking about. Funnily enough it was directed against those protesting against racism.

[chicken 2,624]

On 21/12/2020 at 15:16, Nuff Said said:

More seriously, Paddy says in his piece "respecting others opinions is a quality that has escaped from the political discourse in this country". Amen brother.

Though to be fair, it has to also be said that traditionally, the vast majority have not been so polarised and have done a bloody good job of keeping the others in check. That included telling them they were daft, or more... 

That comes from my grandmother who was from the East End of London where they kicked Oswald Mosley and his jackbooted pals off the streets.

The actual message is a little more nuanced, and that is know how to challenge people respectfully. If we don't challenge, change doesn't happen. Taking the knee is actually a respectful way of doing that. Booing them is not.

I think humility is lost right now. People are actually struggling to make sense of the mess there is happening around us and political powers and influences are driving people to be more and more divisive. This means people become more defensive and more aggressive in stating their views.

Hence the dismissal of scientists, experts and facts for opinions and views that may not be as well evidenced.

[Jimthechip 39]

54 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I am watching the Arsenal v ManC game and I must admit, enough of the players and coaching staff looked like taking the knee was more of a chore and couldn't wait to get up quick enough.

I'm not sure it is doing anything more than delaying the start of the game for the racists.

Kaepernick did it during the playing of the anthem, something quite dramatic in the US, and it brought the question of racism to the front pages. And it cost Colin his career, a career good enough to grace the Superbowl in 2012, amongst other things. And he was outlawed by the sports authorities.

Offer footballers the same choice and I'm not sure they would continue.

 

His Career was not in question until politicians waded in. Here in the UK thankfully we have a slightly more reasoned approach. 

I think what you said about the Arsenal game demonstrates a lot of what is wrong with today. You project you thoughts onto their actions. I saw it as group of players nervous before a hugely important game. Too many people assuming too many things, and then presenting it as evidence.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

It's incredibly naive not to offer his reasoning. He either controls the narrative or allows space for all kinds of conjecture.

By all accounts, he's an intelligent guy. Did he think that nobody would notice him standing there? He's about 7ft tall.

Why should he explain himself just because bad actors want to impute horrible motivations on his perfectly lawful action (or inaction?). That is inherently giving them power that they don't deserve. I think Zimbo knows exactly what the situation is and that his stance is more principled than naive.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Precisely the sort of authoritarianism that Mr Carrow has been talking about. Funnily enough it was directed against those protesting against racism.

Totally agree. Authoritarianism should be fought wherever it rears its head. Thing is, right wing authoritarianism tends to be known and obvious, whereas the Left version is hidden behind very clever narrative devices, linguistic traps and slogans...

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

39 minutes ago, Jimthechip said:

His Career was not in question until politicians waded in. Here in the UK thankfully we have a slightly more reasoned approach. 

I think what you said about the Arsenal game demonstrates a lot of what is wrong with today. You project you thoughts onto their actions. I saw it as group of players nervous before a hugely important game. Too many people assuming too many things, and then presenting it as evidence.

Its called opinion based on what I saw. Blimey Pep could hardly wait to get up. Not my thoughts but observations.

The minute you diminish something it starts to lose its value.

Just the reason the clapping for the NHS stopped. 

 

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

3 hours ago, daly said:

Good on you Zimbo

Keep politics out of football

How many more would stand but are afraid of being classed racist

 

 

I buy a season ticket to watch football. Escapism forms part of that experience; the last thing I want is someone, somewhere deciding which non-football issues I should be exposed to while I'm there! 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

And don't forget, Colin was always an activist. And he wasn't taking the knee originally. He just used to sit down behind the rest during the anthem until I believe a reporter spotted him. So then he decided to take it out front. But originally it was more of a fcuk you I am not standing.

In fact his kneeling has been misconstrued. He wanted to ignore the anthem but did not want to disrespect people who had died fighting for the flag.

So he took the knee as a half way house.

Of course that idiot Trump siezed on it as disrespect to the nation which was totally untrue.

[Jimthechip 39]

24 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Its called opinion based on what I saw. Blimey Pep could hardly wait to get up. Not my thoughts but observations.

The minute you diminish something it starts to lose its value.

Just the reason the clapping for the NHS stopped. 

 

Wasn't aimed specifically at you sorry for not being clearer. The idea that everyone interprets what they see was my point, not at your specific statement. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 minutes ago, Jimthechip said:

Wasn't aimed specifically at you sorry for not being clearer. The idea that everyone interprets what they see was my point, not at your specific statement. 

I did assume it was a general point. I was just basically agreeing with you. I saw an exasperated Pep others may have seen a player deep in thought.

Christophs decision to stand is still not known and we are all making our own assumptions. And he doesn't have to explain it to us either because he hasn't done anything wrong.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

1 hour ago, Norfolk Mustard said:

I buy a season ticket to watch football. Escapism forms part of that experience; the last thing I want is someone, somewhere deciding which non-football issues I should be exposed to while I'm there! 

Funny - I don't recall you posting to protest about having to stand for a minute's silence for the home match nearest to Remembrance Sunday. 

[Naturalcynic 629]

5 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Funny - I don't recall you posting to protest about having to stand for a minute's silence for the home match nearest to Remembrance Sunday. 

And, of course, that’s just once a year and isn’t rammed down your throat every single match.

[hogesar 9,653]

10 hours ago, kirku said:

It's incredibly naive not to offer his reasoning. He either controls the narrative or allows space for all kinds of conjecture.

By all accounts, he's an intelligent guy. Did he think that nobody would notice him standing there? He's about 7ft tall.

I'm not sure offering his reasoning in the current climate will make a difference anyway. Plenty have decided to draw conclusions from it already without any knowledge whatsoever. I maintain that a white guy coming out and speaking about why he isn't taking the knee is onto the losing side immediately, despite how wrong that might be.

Players don't have to tell us all their political or social beliefs or what movements they agree with. When the Millwall fans booed taking the knee the argument was if you didn't agree then stand their in silence. Zimbo isn't stopping others taking the knee neither is he criticising those that do.

The rest of the squad are clearly happy enough with his reasoning and that *should* be good enough for the general public considering our squad is full of different nationalities and skin colours. Instead it feels a few white Caucasian English football fans want to draw conclusions on it.

[Yellow Wal 314]

How far down the football pyramid does 'taking the knee' go?

Does it extend to ~Youth football?

Who decides?

[Naturalcynic 629]

16 minutes ago, Yellow Wal said:

How far down the football pyramid does 'taking the knee' go?

Does it extend to ~Youth football?

Who decides?

What about other worthy causes to promote social justice?  Standing on one leg to end third world hunger?  Lying prostrate to signal opposition to animal cruelty?  Jumping up and down to show solidarity with the Uighurs?  And these actions must be completed before every match and anyone seen to be not taking part, let alone questioning the appropriateness of politics creeping into football, will be suspected of "wrong think", although they are of course free to say whatever they want so long as they accept the consequences (I think that's the current narrative).

Edited December 23, 2020 by Naturalcynic

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

Do what you will, just dont expect anyone else to take responsibility.