Taking the knee

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I'll admit to being a bit naive to this sort of situation myself.

So is referring to a person's skin when trying to reference someone out of a group racist? Is it only racist if that person is black? Ill admit, its entirely probable if there was one white guy with 4 black guys and I was asked which one I probably wouldn't hesitate saying the white guy. 

I think a lot of people would be the same without having any racist thoughts so is the comment itself racist? Of course, its upset some of the black players who heard it and they're the ones to say if its hurtful or not. If its hurtful I fully support that; but does that automatically make it racist?

I agree completely with that. If that is indeed an accurate account of what happened, then I don't think the fourth official has been intentionally racist, but just naive and possibly miscommunicated in a foreign language. I imagine all UEFA officials will have received training on this, and they will probably have been instructed to avoid reference to skin colour at all times, so he has just made a bad choice of words.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,716]

[Indy 3,298]

I was always taught that racism was a direct hatred aimed directly at someone different, like Hog I’m finding it harder to see where you draw the line and being careful in how you choose your words! A simple conversation could be misheard by a third party and construed as racist!

Is it really racist if it was just a reference to pointing an individual out by their skin colour? I’m not sure that is, something more must have been said, surely?

[The Real Buh 3,432]

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

9 minutes ago, Indy said:

Is it really racist if it was just a reference to pointing an individual out by their skin colour? I’m not sure that is, something more must have been said, surely?

Crossed wires between two people communicating in a foreign language, and possibly one or both may not have a great grasp of it? Ultimately though, you'll only be able to know if you heard the full conversation.

[hogesar 9,658]

19 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I agree completely with that. If that is indeed an accurate account of what happened, then I don't think the fourth official has been intentionally racist, but just naive and possibly miscommunicated in a foreign language. I imagine all UEFA officials will have received training on this, and they will probably have been instructed to avoid reference to skin colour at all times, so he has just made a bad choice of words.

Yeah thats pretty much how I see it although the reaction to me suggests maybe something else was said earlier. That would make more sense to me.

If not then my personal opinion is whilst its not my place to say if a black person should be offended or not, this sort of outcry perhaps dilutes and frustrates the actual, intentional racism that still exists and needs to be eradicated.

[Indy 3,298]

Just now, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Crossed wires between two people communicating in a foreign language, and possibly one or both may not have a great grasp of it? Ultimately though, you'll only be able to know if you heard the full conversation.

Exactly, it’s sad really. It’s certainly not acceptable to use any racist remarks and fully behind the players, but if it’s really a case of poor communication without malice then it’s sad for everyone.

Before anyone starts I’ve been singled out most my life as my foreign name and European heritage has led to a lot of prejudice here in the UK over my school and working years!

[Jim Smith 2,317]

The Romanian word for black could have had a part in this incident but if it’s as described then it’s not “racist abuse” in my book to describe someone as “the black guy” as a form of identification. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yeah thats pretty much how I see it although the reaction to me suggests maybe something else was said earlier. That would make more sense to me.

If not then my personal opinion is whilst its not my place to say if a black person should be offended or not, this sort of outcry perhaps dilutes and frustrates the actual, intentional racism that still exists and needs to be eradicated.

This is a key point. A white person will never truly be able to understand what it feels like to be a black person hearing the N-word or indeed any reference to skin colour.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

7 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

The topic of this thread is far less tiresome than the bickering of the usual suspects that keep derailing it. Can you guys please take it to private message so you can continue your lovers tiff without the rest of us having to partake?

Yep have to agree. Honestly find it so bizarre how some posters want to relentless destroy or move a thread just because.... ????? Not really sure how it can be so impactful on anyone.

I don't know about you, but generally if I'm not interested in a thread, I find it quite easy to not hover my mouse over that thread and click in it; nor complain relentlessly within that thread about its existence. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Hank shoots Skyler

[The Real Buh 3,432]

2 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Yep have to agree. Honestly find it so bizarre how some posters want to relentless destroy or move a thread just because.... ????? Not really sure how it can be so impactful on anyone.

I don't know about you, but generally if I'm not interested in a thread, I find it quite easy to not hover my mouse over that thread and click in it; nor complain relentlessly within that thread about its existence. 

I agree. Let’s just post anything and have an anarchy board

[Indy 3,298]

On a side note, funny to watch manure players and pundits faces after the final whistle......glad to see them knocked out!

Especially after Rio’s moaning about Pogbas agent destabilising the club and player, wasn’t he the one doing the same to us with Godfrey?

Edited December 8, 2020 by Indy

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

If only they introduced a system of numbers on shirts to help identify players............

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I was always told that the definition of racism was someone who believed they were superior to someone else just because of the colour of their skin, their race or creed.

Simple but covers the point as far as I'm concerned.

[Naturalcynic 629]

21 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yeah thats pretty much how I see it although the reaction to me suggests maybe something else was said earlier. That would make more sense to me.

If not then my personal opinion is whilst its not my place to say if a black person should be offended or not, this sort of outcry perhaps dilutes and frustrates the actual, intentional racism that still exists and needs to be eradicated.

When I lived in the far-east I was very frequently referred to as “orang putih” (white man). This was not meant as a term of abuse and was a natural and obvious way for people to identify me.  It didn’t offend me in the slightest.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

3 minutes ago, Block Y Seat 176 said:

If only they introduced a system of numbers on shirts to help identify players............

It was a member of the coaching staff 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

38 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

I agree. Let’s just post anything and have an anarchy board

I'm not sure I would describe having a few non-football threads in the main discussion section as 'anarchy'. 

[hogesar 9,658]

1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

This is a key point. A white person will never truly be able to understand what it feels like to be a black person hearing the N-word or indeed any reference to skin colour.

Yeah agreed. It's a big caveat and I fully agree with it. The problem is if I we take that key point too literally, we wouldn't even be able to debate it so I have to put it to the side a little.

[Chelm Canary 404]

[ELYOUKAYEE 37]

2 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

When I lived in the far-east I was very frequently referred to as “orang putih” (white man). This was not meant as a term of abuse and was a natural and obvious way for people to identify me.  It didn’t offend me in the slightest.

That's because you haven't grown up with  people telling you that all the difficulties you come across in life happen because of the colour of you skin and not the content of your character.

[horsefly 4,298]

2 hours ago, Block Y Seat 176 said:

If only they introduced a system of numbers on shirts to help identify players............

Exactly! Funny how the skin colour is never shouted out for identification purposes when the player concerned is white.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

So this evening QPR players took the knee in front of Millwall fans when they scored a goal. Talk about sending a message!

[Naturalcynic 629]

As it’s now clear that the colour of people’s skin must never be mentioned for fear of causing offence, does that mean that the organisation that has precipitated page after page of argument must now rename itself “Lives Matter”?

[Jim Smith 2,317]

5 hours ago, horsefly said:

Exactly! Funny how the skin colour is never shouted out for identification purposes when the player concerned is white.

Isn’t it? If it was a player with a number on his back I’m sure he would have used the number. But it was an assistant coach.

its completely conceivable (and likely in my view) that had it been an incident between two coaches, one white and one black, that the fourth official would have said “the white guy” when asked who started it if it was indeed the white msn who did.

any reference to a persons race is not racist. We seem to be moving to that territory and it’s ridiculous. All around us we have people shouting Black Lives Matter, doing black power salutes and proclaiming they are proud to be black and yet a black man being described as a black man is suddenly offensive or “racist abuse.” In a way that’s sending a terrible and counter productive message because it’s implying if that there is something wrong with being black.

id like to think here that it’s the Romanian language that has caused a misunderstanding because if not it’s a massive overreaction. 

[horsefly 4,298]

18 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

As it’s now clear that the colour of people’s skin must never be mentioned for fear of causing offence, does that mean that the organisation that has precipitated page after page of argument must now rename itself “Lives Matter”?

Even the lives of ignorant people matter too you'll be glad to hear. But it would be interesting to know why you feel the need to claim that people are arguing something that they clearly are not. Perhaps you might find it useful actually to listen to the complaint of the player concerned, and then respond to his actual complaint. Then you might also find that you won't need to misrepresent it in such a flippant fashion (and thereby cut down on the number of pages required to correct your errors).

[horsefly 4,298]

41 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Isn’t it? If it was a player with a number on his back I’m sure he would have used the number. But it was an assistant coach.

its completely conceivable (and likely in my view) that had it been an incident between two coaches, one white and one black, that the fourth official would have said “the white guy” when asked who started it if it was indeed the white msn who did.

any reference to a persons race is not racist. We seem to be moving to that territory and it’s ridiculous. All around us we have people shouting Black Lives Matter, doing black power salutes and proclaiming they are proud to be black and yet a black man being described as a black man is suddenly offensive or “racist abuse.” In a way that’s sending a terrible and counter productive message because it’s implying if that there is something wrong with being black.

id like to think here that it’s the Romanian language that has caused a misunderstanding because if not it’s a massive overreaction. 

I'll let Demba Ba respond to that point:

Basaksehir striker Demba Ba could be heard over the BT Sport broadcast saying: "You never say 'this White guy,' you say 'this guy.' So why when mention a Black guy, you have to say 'this Black guy?'"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/soccer/paris-saint-germain-vs-istanbul-basaksehir-champions-league-game-suspended-after-alleged-racist-incident-involving-match-official/ar-BB1bKMuX

No-one is arguing that any reference to a person's colour is automatically racist, that would be patently absurd. Context and intention are of the first importance in such matters. That is why Denba Ba's question is also of the first importance and requires an answer. I have no idea whether the official concerned is an overt racist, or institutionally racist, or not at all. But what is clear is that all players of whatever colour deserve to be treated with exactly the same respect and fairness by the officials. The fact that the fourth official in this instance picked out an individual in this way clearly raises questions about his ability to officiate with the required respect and fairness for all.

Edited December 9, 2020 by horsefly

[dylanisabaddog 4,920]

9 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

The Romanian word for black could have had a part in this incident but if it’s as described then it’s not “racist abuse” in my book to describe someone as “the black guy” as a form of identification. 

I suppose it depends on the circumstances. Someone on this forum recently referred to "the black guy in the ticket office". It was totally unnecessary and I'm sure he would never have referred to 'the white guy' in the ticket office. It's probably not intended to be racist and the person who said it is probably perfectly decent, but it's really more a question of how it's received. If you are different to everyone else and it's constantly drawn to your attention it can't feel very nice. 

There is no point in referring to someone's skin colour, or nationality or religion for that matter, unless it's really necessary. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by dylanisabaddog

[Jim Smith 2,317]

31 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I'll let Demba Ba respond to that point:

Basaksehir striker Demba Ba could be heard over the BT Sport broadcast saying: "You never say 'this White guy,' you say 'this guy.' So why when mention a Black guy, you have to say 'this Black guy?'"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/soccer/paris-saint-germain-vs-istanbul-basaksehir-champions-league-game-suspended-after-alleged-racist-incident-involving-match-official/ar-BB1bKMuX

No-one is arguing that any reference to a person's colour is automatically racist, that would be patently absurd. Context and intention are of the first importance in such matters. That is why Denba Ba's question is also of the first importance and requires an answer. I have no idea whether the official concerned is an overt racist, or institutionally racist, or not at all. But what is clear is that all players of whatever colour deserve to be treated with exactly the same respect and fairness by the officials. The fact that the fourth official in this instance picked out an individual in this way clearly raises questions about his ability to officiate with the required respect and fairness for all.

Don’t agree. If there were four or five people involved in an incident and only one was black then in the absence of knowing their names or numbers it’s a pretty obvious way of identifying the person in question. Same would apply the other way around (if there were four black men and one white man). The guy who got sent off had clearly done or said something to warrant being sent off. He wasn’t sent off because he was black.

[horsefly 4,298]

Just now, Jim Smith said:

Don’t agree. If there were four or five people involved in an incident and only one was black then in the absence of knowing their names or numbers it’s a pretty obvious way of identifying the person in question. Same would apply the other way around (if there were four black men and one white man). The guy who got sent off had clearly done or said something to warrant being sent off. He wasn’t sent off because he was black.

Sorry but you're not answering Demba Ba's question. Are you seriously trying to claim that this was the only way that the official could identify the individual concerned? That he couldn't have just pointed to the individual concerned at said "That guy" as Demba Ba remarked?

[Jim Smith 2,317]

7 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Sorry but you're not answering Demba Ba's question. Are you seriously trying to claim that this was the only way that the official could identify the individual concerned? That he couldn't have just pointed to the individual concerned at said "That guy" as Demba Ba remarked?

It was one of a number of ways you could identify an individual. If the guy had a yellow hat on you might use that. However fundamentally its not "racist" or "racist abuse" to describe a black man as a black man in this context and if that is where we are moving to then I think its a dangerous and confusing place. in fact I think if thats the case we need to move away from it and stop people walking on egg shells because that just causes more frustration and resentment.

As I have said above if he said it in Romanian then i suspect the use of the romanian word has a bearing on this incident but if not then in my opinion its maybe a case of the current climate encouraging people to find offence where none was intended.