Taking the knee

[Jim Smith 2,314]

4 hours ago, Badger said:

Whilst the statement is logical it begs the question:

If the inequalities are persistent how else do you explain their existence? Can you suggest other explanations for the police and criminal system evidence (see below)?

 

1. Black people being nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

2. Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

3.Black people making up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

I think its hugely complex and can;t just be simplitically put down to racism. Yes there are probably some racist attitudes amongst some members of the police force (as is likely in many major organisations) but i'd imagine that overwhemingly the police target those who they know commit certain types of crimes and the overriding commonality in the street crime and stop and search statistics will be that a very large proportion are taking place in urban areas, in areas with socio economic deprivation and specifically in London. With stop and search in particular, the percentage of such stops undertaken in London skews the statistics significantly. I fact London accoiunts for half of stop and searches nationally and yes they are being carried out disproportionately (in terms of population numbers at least) on young, black males but its of note that proportionately the % of stops that result in arrests is more or less the same for black and white suspects whereas if actually they were just totally randomly stopping black suspects you would expect the % of stops resulting in arrests to be lower surely? I don't think the police just decide to stop black people for a laugh, many are very experienced and will know their patches and who is committing crimes on them. Some policemen may do it for an easy crime stat, some may do it because they are a***holes or prejudiced but overall I think most police officers are just trying to do their job and keep the streets safe.

Similarly, black people make up 10% of those arrested nationally, 10 % of those prosecuted, 10% of those convicted and 10% of those given custodial sentences. So again, if the 10% arrested were all innocent then you would expect the latter two figures to be lower. In London, the population is 13% black so if most of those arrests are happening in London then suddenly the discrepancy with the 3% of the population figure you cite is not so stark? Whites make up 78% of arrests, 80% of prosecutions and 81% of those convicted.

So again, I don;t really accept that the system or indeed the police force are inherently racist. However, we do have massive social inequalities in some parts of our country and our cities and I think it is that, plus the gang culture in some urban areas, more than anything that drives the over representation of the black population in the criminal justice system which in turn leads to the police targetting black kids hanging around on the streets and leads to the whole thing becoming self-perpetuating and a "them" v "us" scenario. We need to put money and resources into these poorer areas, find ways of keeping kids off the street and provide some hope/aspiration for the kids living there (whether black or white). And yes we need a more diverse police force who understand these communities better as well as just generally more community policing.

[Badger 2,405]

5 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I think its hugely complex and can;t just be simplitically put down to racism. Yes there are probably some racist attitudes amongst some members of the police force (as is likely in many major organisations) but i'd imagine that overwhemingly the police target those who they know commit certain types of crimes and the overriding commonality in the street crime and stop and search statistics will be that a very large proportion are taking place in urban areas, in areas with socio economic deprivation and specifically in London. With stop and search in particular, the percentage of such stops undertaken in London skews the statistics significantly. I fact London accoiunts for half of stop and searches nationally and yes they are being carried out disproportionately (in terms of population numbers at least) on young, black males but its of note that proportionately the % of stops that result in arrests is more or less the same for black and white suspects whereas if actually they were just totally randomly stopping black suspects you would expect the % of stops resulting in arrests to be lower surely? I don't think the police just decide to stop black people for a laugh, many are very experienced and will know their patches and who is committing crimes on them. Some policemen may do it for an easy crime stat, some may do it because they are a***holes or prejudiced but overall I think most police officers are just trying to do their job and keep the streets safe.

Similarly, black people make up 10% of those arrested nationally, 10 % of those prosecuted, 10% of those convicted and 10% of those given custodial sentences. So again, if the 10% arrested were all innocent then you would expect the latter two figures to be lower. In London, the population is 13% black so if most of those arrests are happening in London then suddenly the discrepancy with the 3% of the population figure you cite is not so stark? Whites make up 78% of arrests, 80% of prosecutions and 81% of those convicted.

So again, I don;t really accept that the system or indeed the police force are inherently racist. However, we do have massive social inequalities in some parts of our country and our cities and I think it is that, plus the gang culture in some urban areas, more than anything that drives the over representation of the black population in the criminal justice system which in turn leads to the police targetting black kids hanging around on the streets and leads to the whole thing becoming self-perpetuating and a "them" v "us" scenario. We need to put money and resources into these poorer areas, find ways of keeping kids off the street and provide some hope/aspiration for the kids living there (whether black or white). And yes we need a more diverse police force who understand these communities better as well as just generally more community policing.

Thank you Jim.

I agree with some of what you say but not all, and some of your points would require further investigation by me but at least you were prepared to give it a go and address the issues! 👍

[Badger 2,405]

2 minutes ago, Badger said:

Whites make up 78% of arrests, 80% of prosecutions and 81% of those convicted.

I don't know if this 78% figure includes the non British white population but according to the 2011 census 86% of the population is white British

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

5 hours ago, Badger said:

Final chance - but I suspect that you will evade it with semantics. If it is not at least partly discrimination please come up with an alternative explanation of the following:

 

1. Black people being nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

2. Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

3.Black people making up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

 

Romany/Irish travelers make 5% of the prison population, but only account for 0.1% of the population. Is that down to institutional racism towards gypsies or that they're more likely to be found pinching lead from church roofs?

 

 

 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

23 minutes ago, Badger said:

I don't know if this 78% figure includes the non British white population but according to the 2011 census 86% of the population is white British

Yes i think thats right. As I have said, black people are over-represented in the system and by the same token whites are slightly under represented (by reference to overall population, don;t know how it works if you look, for example, at major urban areas) but the point is that of those who are arrested, the numbers who are prosecuted, who are convicted and who are given custodial sentences are broadly in line with the number of arrests. So its not the case that the stats suggest that any particular ethnic group are being unfairly or wrongly arrested to a significant degree. Same with stop and search. 16% of stops on white suspects result in arrest whilst 17% of stops on black suspects result in arrests (i.e. the percentage of "justified" stops is more or less the same).

Rather than calling the whole country or system racist, we should be looking to address this issue at source and looking at why there is this disparity. I don;t think its about not arresting people or not sending them to prison if guilty, its about preventing them from offending in the first place - which comes back to tackling poverty and providing opportunities, hope and aspiration in my view. Which probably comes back to getting resources to the communities that need them. 

 

 

[Badger 2,405]

1 hour ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

Romany/Irish travelers make 5% of the prison population, but only account for 0.1% of the population. Is that down to institutional racism towards gypsies or that they're more likely to be found pinching lead from church roofs?

 

 

 

However Jim Davies, a Romany Gypsy campaigner and former police officer, said ... that the racism against Gypsies and Travellers in the Criminal Justice system was “deeply ingrained”.

“From a Romany and Traveller perspective, the Criminal Justice System is a system predicated on the notion that we are a criminal group not ethnic groups,” said Jim Davies – the former chair of the Association of Gypsy, Roma and Traveller Police Officers. “Despite the progress made in very recent years, particularly in policing, this remains the pervasive ideology. It is deeply ingrained. It is part of the very fabric of the system and results in enormous inequality and discrimination.”

“To change this will require major systemic change which will be an expensive and painful process for all involved. Does the desire and will to go through such change exist? I have my doubts. Given that even Romanies and Travellers working within the Criminal Justice System on the whole are unwilling to ethnically self-identify out of fear of how they will be treated, the recommendations of the Lammy report and the Governments response don’t really seem to have grasped the depth of the problem in relation to us... As much as I hope my scepticism is misplaced, I will remain sceptical until I see actual positive change in the day to day lives of Romanies and Travellers.”

https://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/news/2018/01/government-act-over-representation-gypsies-and-travellers-prison

 

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

1 hour ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

Romany/Irish travelers make 5% of the prison population, but only account for 0.1% of the population. Is that down to institutional racism towards gypsies or that they're more likely to be found pinching lead from church roofs?

 

 

 

Naughty! Naughty but made me chuckle.  

[Rock The Boat 1,325]

18 hours ago, Jimthechip said:

Hang on, that's not quite what you said "if it's the main one then you have to explain why many ethnic groups are doing really well and in some cases better than white British." I showed evidence that none are doing better than white.

I do however agree with you racism is driven by self interest, "keeping them down so my chances are higher". 

You want to dig deeper into poverty you need to look at the steady degradation of education away from skills and towards academia, link that to age where identity politics dictates policy and you are close. There are issues with working class poverty, but getting out of poverty (although not easy) has less barriers if you are white, for all the reasons listed throughout this thread.

I would like to know why the middle class are all to blame and not the ruling class? They have been excellent at diverting blame and attention for some time now.

There are studies in America that shows there are three things that will prevent a person from falling below the poverty line

1. Complete High School and don't drop out.

2. Don't have kids out of wedlock

3. Get a job

The first two are lifestyle choices that people can make. The third one can present problems to some people but it is fair enough to say that by not having an income it is almost impossible to stay out of poverty, so an individual has to strive as much as possible to work.

Why Asian Indians and Chinese do better than Whites is not often discussed but studies show that the kids in the top two groups spend on average one hour per night on homework more than white kids and two hours per night more than black kids. Asian kids also are more likely to be living in a two-parent family that black kids. 65% black kids live in a single-parent family compared to 15% Asian.

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

6 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes i think thats right. As I have said, black people are over-represented in the system and by the same token whites are slightly under represented (by reference to overall population, don;t know how it works if you look, for example, at major urban areas) but the point is that of those who are arrested, the numbers who are prosecuted, who are convicted and who are given custodial sentences are broadly in line with the number of arrests. So its not the case that the stats suggest that any particular ethnic group are being unfairly or wrongly arrested to a significant degree. Same with stop and search. 16% of stops on white suspects result in arrest whilst 17% of stops on black suspects result in arrests (i.e. the percentage of "justified" stops is more or less the same).

Rather than calling the whole country or system racist, we should be looking to address this issue at source and looking at why there is this disparity. I don;t think its about not arresting people or not sending them to prison if guilty, its about preventing them from offending in the first place - which comes back to tackling poverty and providing opportunities, hope and aspiration in my view. Which probably comes back to getting resources to the communities that need them. 

 

 

Black people are nine times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people, official figures for England and Wales show.

The figures for 2019-20 come after protests and allegations of racial profiling by police, with claims that trust and confidence in police are under serious strain.

Liberty said the figures showed “increasing state harassment” of black people that would make little or no difference in tackling serious crime.

A total of 577,054 stops were carried out across England in 2019-20, with 76% leading to no further action. Stops where an officer requires reasonable suspicion rose by 53% from the previous year, to 558,973

Stops under section 60, where no reasonable suspicion is required, rose by 35% to 18,081, with 4% leading to an arrest.

Black people were 18 times more likely to be stopped under section 60, according to an analysis of the official figures by the Liberal Democrats.

The use of stop and search powers was at its highest for six years, following a call from the government to deploy the tactic more to try to reduce violent crime.

The data shows that in 63% of cases the most common reason given for justifying a stop was drugs. The next most common reason was weapons, at 16%.

The Home Office, which released the figures, said the increases were driven by the Metropolitan police’s greater use of stop and search in London last year. The capital’s police force carried out almost half of all stops and while 10 stops were carried out per 1,000 of population across England and Wales, in London the figure was three times that.

The Home Office said this high rate, coupled with the fact that the London population has a higher proportion of black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) people (40%) compared with the rest of England and Wales (10%), meant the London figures skewed the national figures for racial disproportionality.

The figures also show that while black people were 8.9 times more likely to be stopped than white people, for all BAME people that figure was 4.1 times higher than for white people, down slightly from 4.3 in 2018-19.

Police say disproportionality does not necessarily show a racial bias. Campaigners disagree, and expressed concern that the disproportionality has failed to improve.

In a commentary accompanying the statistics, the Home Office noted that disproportionality rates had risen in the last 10 years: “Between 2011-12 and 2014-15 the disparity generally reduced (going from six to four times higher respectively). However, it started to rise from 2015-16, reaching a peak in the previous two years, with the rate around 9.5 times higher for those identifying as black or black British compared to those who identify as white). In the latest year the disparity rate fell, decreasing to 8.9 times higher.”

Stops increased in 40 out of the 43 forces across England and Wales, with the Met accounting for 50% of that rise.

Data for arrests shows that black people were more than three times more likely to be detained than white people, and BAME people more than one and a half times more likely.

Katrina French, of StopWatch, said: “It is disappointing to see these extreme racial disparities in the rates of stop and search, year after year.

“It is clear that the accountability mechanisms we have in place – the complaints procedure and local scrutiny panels – are not substantial enough to address this injustice. StopWatch calls for primary legislation to ensure that stop and search powers are used fairly, effectively and proportionately.”

Rosalind Comyn, of Liberty, said: “The government should prioritise strategies for community safety that address the root causes of violence and reduce the need for police interventions, rather than increasing state harassment of people.

“The government admits there is no proof that ramping up stop and search makes our communities safer. Yet despite this, and in the face of wide racial disparities, use of stop and search is still rising, and the government is currently pushing forward plans to expand it further. This comes in spite of repeat warnings about the damage this power does to people and communities.”

There was a recent case where two black women celebrating their Birthdays in a park, were killed. The police who turned up assumed they were drug dealers or prostitutes, they were not, so did not look for evidence and indeed took photos laughing over the bodies... It was one of the mum's that found evidence by organising a search of the grounds. Absolute classic case of institutionalised racism still rampant in the met which you do not understand unless you or close friends have been subject to on a very frequent basis.

Funnily, defunding the police is exactly the aim of tackling poverty and crime but the rational debate seems to go out the window when that it mentioned.

[Rock The Boat 1,325]

58 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Black people are nine times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people, official figures for England and Wales show.

The figures for 2019-20 come after protests and allegations of racial profiling by police, with claims that trust and confidence in police are under serious strain.

Liberty said the figures showed “increasing state harassment” of black people that would make little or no difference in tackling serious crime.

A total of 577,054 stops were carried out across England in 2019-20, with 76% leading to no further action. Stops where an officer requires reasonable suspicion rose by 53% from the previous year, to 558,973

Stops under section 60, where no reasonable suspicion is required, rose by 35% to 18,081, with 4% leading to an arrest.

Black people were 18 times more likely to be stopped under section 60, according to an analysis of the official figures by the Liberal Democrats.

The use of stop and search powers was at its highest for six years, following a call from the government to deploy the tactic more to try to reduce violent crime.

The data shows that in 63% of cases the most common reason given for justifying a stop was drugs. The next most common reason was weapons, at 16%.

The Home Office, which released the figures, said the increases were driven by the Metropolitan police’s greater use of stop and search in London last year. The capital’s police force carried out almost half of all stops and while 10 stops were carried out per 1,000 of population across England and Wales, in London the figure was three times that.

The Home Office said this high rate, coupled with the fact that the London population has a higher proportion of black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) people (40%) compared with the rest of England and Wales (10%), meant the London figures skewed the national figures for racial disproportionality.

The figures also show that while black people were 8.9 times more likely to be stopped than white people, for all BAME people that figure was 4.1 times higher than for white people, down slightly from 4.3 in 2018-19.

Police say disproportionality does not necessarily show a racial bias. Campaigners disagree, and expressed concern that the disproportionality has failed to improve.

In a commentary accompanying the statistics, the Home Office noted that disproportionality rates had risen in the last 10 years: “Between 2011-12 and 2014-15 the disparity generally reduced (going from six to four times higher respectively). However, it started to rise from 2015-16, reaching a peak in the previous two years, with the rate around 9.5 times higher for those identifying as black or black British compared to those who identify as white). In the latest year the disparity rate fell, decreasing to 8.9 times higher.”

Stops increased in 40 out of the 43 forces across England and Wales, with the Met accounting for 50% of that rise.

Data for arrests shows that black people were more than three times more likely to be detained than white people, and BAME people more than one and a half times more likely.

Katrina French, of StopWatch, said: “It is disappointing to see these extreme racial disparities in the rates of stop and search, year after year.

“It is clear that the accountability mechanisms we have in place – the complaints procedure and local scrutiny panels – are not substantial enough to address this injustice. StopWatch calls for primary legislation to ensure that stop and search powers are used fairly, effectively and proportionately.”

Rosalind Comyn, of Liberty, said: “The government should prioritise strategies for community safety that address the root causes of violence and reduce the need for police interventions, rather than increasing state harassment of people.

“The government admits there is no proof that ramping up stop and search makes our communities safer. Yet despite this, and in the face of wide racial disparities, use of stop and search is still rising, and the government is currently pushing forward plans to expand it further. This comes in spite of repeat warnings about the damage this power does to people and communities.”

There was a recent case where two black women celebrating their Birthdays in a park, were killed. The police who turned up assumed they were drug dealers or prostitutes, they were not, so did not look for evidence and indeed took photos laughing over the bodies... It was one of the mum's that found evidence by organising a search of the grounds. Absolute classic case of institutionalised racism still rampant in the met which you do not understand unless you or close friends have been subject to on a very frequent basis.

Funnily, defunding the police is exactly the aim of tackling poverty and crime but the rational debate seems to go out the window when that it mentioned.

No, the rational debate was given to you already in IBT's post. Stop and Search takes place mainly in cities. It doesn't make sense to have loads of cops going out to rural England to do stop and search. So the searches take place in cities and in locations which are hotspots for street crime. These places happen to have a higher population density of black people, so it obviously that they will be picked up for stop and search. I suspect that on the same basis the police departments that deal with sheep stealing stop and search a lot of Welsh people. Should the Welsh start complaining?

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

8 hours ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

Romany/Irish travelers make 5% of the prison population, but only account for 0.1% of the population. Is that down to institutional racism towards gypsies or that they're more likely to be found pinching lead from church roofs?

 

 

 

Until you've had to work within close proximity to gypsies you really have no idea how difficult they are. I am not a racist, I've always been a leftie and I believe in striving towards total equality for all people, I despise prejudice and I'm probably far too empathetic for my own good. But god damn, gypsies are hard work. They utterly terrorize the area near where I work and it's not a lone group. There have been several groups live in the camps near me, different families over the course of 5 years or so and they all cause havoc and go out of their way to cause misery to people whenever they can. Our young, hard working poorly paid team of employees are regularly under threat of being stabbed or ambushed outside of work for standing up to them, we're constantly stolen from and the police have flat out told us we're on our own and have to deal with it, our vehicles have been stolen and damaged (like I said we're minimum wage staff scraping by) we're regularly verbally abused and our life is made more difficult by being victims of their boredom. 

I'm sure most of their population are reasonable people, but to me at least there seems to be a much higher percentage of wrong uns in their ranks so it;s no surprise to me that the percentage of them in prison is quite high. If the police weren't scared of being accused of racism and prejudice their percentage would probably be even higher. I'm sure many of you will call me out for being racist and ignorant for this post, but you really have no idea how bad it can be trying to live and work near them.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Christoph Stiepermann

[Naturalcynic 628]

6 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Until you've had to work within close proximity to gypsies you really have no idea how difficult they are. I am not a racist, I've always been a leftie and I believe in striving towards total equality for all people, I despise prejudice and I'm probably far too empathetic for my own good. But god damn, gypsies are hard work. They utterly terrorize the area near where I work and it's not a lone group. There have been several groups live in the camps near me, different families over the course of 5 years or so and they all cause havoc and go out of their way to cause misery to people whenever they can. Our young, hard working poorly paid team of employees are regularly under threat of being stabbed or ambushed outside of work for standing up to them, we're constantly stolen from and the police have flat out told us we're on our own and have to deal with it, our vehicles have been stolen and damaged (like I said we're minimum wage staff scraping by) we're regularly verbally abused and our life is made more difficult by being victims of their boredom. 

I'm sure most of their population are reasonable people, but to me at least there seems to be a much higher percentage of wrong uns in their ranks so it;s no surprise to me that the percentage of them in prison is quite high. If the police weren't scared of being accused of racism and prejudice their percentage would probably be even higher. I'm sure many of you will call me out for being racist and ignorant for this post, but you really have no idea how bad it can be trying to live and work near them.

A brave post although I’m sure there’ll be some flak coming your way from the usual suspects.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Naturalcynic

[Herman 9,713]

Through a similar lived experience some of us know @Christoph Stiepermann is telling the truth. I have 2 and a half camps near work and the vast majority are ok. They know not to crap on their own doorstep and get on living in peace with their neighbours. But our problems stem from new arrivals that come to stay for a few weeks, maybe working nearby. They seem to have no qualms in being a right PITA, with break ins and snooping around, so much so that the company had to spend thousands on extra security and fencing. It has been quiet for a while now but you have to be on your guard.

[Badger 2,405]

10 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

The idea that you have analyzed any facts is risible: you have gone to great lengths to avoid doing so!

It is absolutely clear that you are on the "following the narrative" side of the fence 🥴

[Badger 2,405]

8 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

No, the rational debate was given to you already in IBT's post. Stop and Search takes place mainly in cities. It doesn't make sense to have loads of cops going out to rural England to do stop and search. So the searches take place in cities and in locations which are hotspots for street crime. These places happen to have a higher population density of black people, so it obviously that they will be picked up for stop and search. I suspect that on the same basis the police departments that deal with sheep stealing stop and search a lot of Welsh people. Should the Welsh start complaining?

Any evidence to support this hypothesis?

[Badger 2,405]

13 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

There are studies in America that shows there are three things that will prevent a person from falling below the poverty line

Any link to support this and to enable us to look at the rigour and provenance of said "studies"...

Or do we have to simply rely on your assertion alone? Taking Mr Carrow's cartoon post - are you simply "following the narrative?" 

[East Rider 548]

There have been some very strange views taken here. Please read my experience.

For the record I too am of mixed heritage (I understand this doesn’t give me the monopoly on opinion or right to be correct in every detail- it does mean I have spent over half my life with my obvious mixed heritage face first). I have lived in many areas of the UK.

Were the majority of Milwall fans who booed, expressing racist views? Well of course they were and as I said on another thread, it was bound to happen. But it’s not as simple as that.

I spent a decade in the military in the 80s and 90s which I loved and then undertook a variety of work elsewhere. Over the last two decades I have worked on very many occasions with police forces undertaking a variety of roles. So I’ve mixed with a fair few people. By far the most racist group was those I served with, in the army. It was of course the 80/90s but it was in your face and obvious. I was ‘lucky’ I was tough, from a hard upbringing and very resilient. It ‘s said, if you need dirty work to be done you don’t recruit from Henley of Windsor, you go to the poorer areas of town. Every year we remember those who didn’t come back from various conflicts and rightly so, I can get quite emotional about it. The police work I undertook meant I got to know a lot of them very, very well. I can honestly state I’ve never worked with a more inclusive, open and welcoming bunch of people than police officers. I did not experience or hear a single moment or comment of racist or discriminating behaviour, ever. I would go as far to say that if you are from a BAME background then the police is a very welcome employer and something to seriously consider. However, unlike the military the police are vilified, blamed for every ill and continuously criticized as being a racist organisation. A single suggestion of wrongdoing and even without evidence they are all considered guilty by some commentators. This is in my experience a completely and utterly wrong assumption made by the ignorant and those with an agenda or particular gripe. They are an easy target.

The taking off the knee was poignant and powerful initially when first seen in the USA a few years back, it is obvious there are issues in America. But here in the UK they are not comparable, and with regards the police, not even close. Though some with an agenda would have us believe they are.  The mixed messages from the BLM group who adopted the taking of the knee, the violent protests when in the middle of a pandemic and the disgusting assaults on the police (by the far right groups and the BLM) causes issues for those who would rather a dignified approach. The behaviour of some protesters does not in any way help racial harmony and it is that which I believe has in many ways undermined the taking of the knee. The sentiment is spot on but the ‘Kick it out’ campaign was better delivered.’

Finally, if you really believe the police in London (which is a seriously multi cultural organisation) and elsewhere are mainly driven by racist desire in their stop searches, then I can only presume you are an agitator on a particular narrative or a struggling politician with an election looming. They have been facing an uphill battle for decades trying to reduce murders, stabbings and violent crime predominantly in the black community. The Stephen Lawrence racist murder was even mentioned. He however failed to mention, as many do (as that would not fit the narrative) that the first person who tried to save Stephens life was an off duty police officer after others had walked by. From what I have seen, it is sadly often typically the totally unconnected, comfortably placed and distanced white persons from their arm chairs or ‘bench seat’ that hinder progress and by doing so more victims are made.

I can only speak from my actual and real experiences in life.  

[king canary 7,578]

10 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Funnily, defunding the police is exactly the aim of tackling poverty and crime but the rational debate seems to go out the window when that it mentioned.

Not the point of the thread but part of the reason rational debate goes out of the window is because 'defund the police' is a ****ing terrible slogan and people need to stop using it (certainly in the UK).

[Badger 2,405]

1 hour ago, East Rider said:

There have been some very strange views taken here. Please read my experience....

Finally, if you really believe the police in London (which is a seriously multi cultural organisation) and elsewhere are mainly driven by racist desire in their stop searches, then I can only presume you are an agitator on a particular narrative or a struggling politician with an election looming. ...

The Stephen Lawrence racist murder was even mentioned. He however failed to mention, as many do (as that would not fit the narrative) that the first person who tried to save Stephens life was an off duty police officer after others had walked by. From what I have seen, it is sadly often typically the totally unconnected, comfortably placed and distanced white persons from their arm chairs or ‘bench seat’ that hinder progress and by doing so more victims are made.

I can only speak from my actual and real experiences in life.  

Thank you for a considered post on a complex issue 👍 I agree with some but not all of it.

I think that talking of "racist desire" is not necessarily helpful in describing causes of institutional racism, which has been defined thus,

""Institutional Racism" consists of the collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people." 

In short, "desire or intent" isn't necessary.

Re Steven Lawrence first aid, the Macpherson report stated,

"46.5 No police officer did anything by way of First Aid, apart from the small amount of testing to see whether Stephen Lawrence was still breathing and whether his pulse was beating. ... A senior officer (Inspector Groves) signally failed properly to assess the situation and to ensure that proper steps were being taken to recognise and deal with Stephen Lawrence's gross injuries"

Re Steven Lawrence in general:

6.27 The MPS Black Police Association's spokesmen, in their written submission to the Inquiry, para 3.2, said this:- ".... institutional racism .... permeates the Metropolitan Police Service. This issue above all others is central to the attitudes, values and beliefs, which lead officers to act, albeit unconsciously and for the most part unintentionally, and treat others differently solely because of their ethnicity or culture"

And, if you don't trust the Black Police Association, from the report itself,

6.39 Given the central nature of the issue we feel that it is important at once to state our conclusion that institutional racism, within the terms of its description set out in Paragraph 6.34 above, exists both in the Metropolitan Police Service and in other Police Services and other institutions countrywide

6.44 … but upon all the facts we assert that the conclusion that racism played its part in this case is fully justified. Mere incompetence cannot of itself account for the whole catalogue of failures, mistakes, misjudgements, and lack of direction and control which bedevilled the Stephen Lawrence investigation.

There are many other similar statements about all aspects of the report and previous investigations into it.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/277111/4262.pdf

 

[Rock The Boat 1,325]

2 hours ago, Badger said:

Any link to support this and to enable us to look at the rigour and provenance of said "studies"...

Or do we have to simply rely on your assertion alone? Taking Mr Carrow's cartoon post - are you simply "following the narrative?" 

You have a long history of ignoring facts you don't like and twisting words so you don't get the privilege of a response. 

[Badger 2,405]

2 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

2 hours ago, Badger said:

Any link to support this and to enable us to look at the rigour and provenance of said "studies"...

Or do we have to simply rely on your assertion alone? Taking Mr Carrow's cartoon post - are you simply "following the narrative?" 

You have a long history of ignoring facts you don't like and twisting words so you don't get the privilege of a response. 

Or in other words,

"No I don't have any facts and I am relying simply on assertion as I always do." 

[Rock The Boat 1,325]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

Or in other words,

"No I don't have any facts and I am relying simply on assertion as I always do." 

I have posted facts but you have ignored them. As you always do. 

[East Rider 548]

7 minutes ago, Badger said:

Thank you for a considered post on a complex issue 👍 I agree with some but not all of it.

I think that talking of "racist desire" is not necessarily helpful in describing causes of institutional racism, which has been defined thus,

""Institutional Racism" consists of the collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people." 

In short, "desire or intent" isn't necessary.

Re Steven Lawrence first aid, the Macpherson report stated,

"46.5 No police officer did anything by way of First Aid, apart from the small amount of testing to see whether Stephen Lawrence was still breathing and whether his pulse was beating. ... A senior officer (Inspector Groves) signally failed properly to assess the situation and to ensure that proper steps were being taken to recognise and deal with Stephen Lawrence's gross injuries"

Re Steven Lawrence in general:

6.27 The MPS Black Police Association's spokesmen, in their written submission to the Inquiry, para 3.2, said this:- ".... institutional racism .... permeates the Metropolitan Police Service. This issue above all others is central to the attitudes, values and beliefs, which lead officers to act, albeit unconsciously and for the most part unintentionally, and treat others differently solely because of their ethnicity or culture"

And, if you don't trust the Black Police Association, from the report itself,

6.39 Given the central nature of the issue we feel that it is important at once to state our conclusion that institutional racism, within the terms of its description set out in Paragraph 6.34 above, exists both in the Metropolitan Police Service and in other Police Services and other institutions countrywide

6.44 … but upon all the facts we assert that the conclusion that racism played its part in this case is fully justified. Mere incompetence cannot of itself account for the whole catalogue of failures, mistakes, misjudgements, and lack of direction and control which bedevilled the Stephen Lawrence investigation.

There are many other similar statements about all aspects of the report and previous investigations into it.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/277111/4262.pdf

 

 

I don't wish to sound picky however, you have quoted aspects from an incident 27/28 years ago and just highlighted one of my observations. I reiterate if you had been offered the opportunity to work with them as I was for many years, I feel your stance would be somewhat different.  

My experience is from the last two decades. I strongly suspect their were racist issues in the police many years ago as there were certainly in the military and elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

20 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

I think its hugely complex and can;t just be simplitically put down to racism. Yes there are probably some racist attitudes amongst some members of the police force (as is likely in many major organisations) but i'd imagine that overwhemingly the police target those who they know commit certain types of crimes and the overriding commonality in the street crime and stop and search statistics will be that a very large proportion are taking place in urban areas, in areas with socio economic deprivation and specifically in London. With stop and search in particular, the percentage of such stops undertaken in London skews the statistics significantly. I fact London accoiunts for half of stop and searches nationally and yes they are being carried out disproportionately (in terms of population numbers at least) on young, black males but its of note that proportionately the % of stops that result in arrests is more or less the same for black and white suspects whereas if actually they were just totally randomly stopping black suspects you would expect the % of stops resulting in arrests to be lower surely? I don't think the police just decide to stop black people for a laugh, many are very experienced and will know their patches and who is committing crimes on them. Some policemen may do it for an easy crime stat, some may do it because they are a***holes or prejudiced but overall I think most police officers are just trying to do their job and keep the streets safe.

Similarly, black people make up 10% of those arrested nationally, 10 % of those prosecuted, 10% of those convicted and 10% of those given custodial sentences. So again, if the 10% arrested were all innocent then you would expect the latter two figures to be lower. In London, the population is 13% black so if most of those arrests are happening in London then suddenly the discrepancy with the 3% of the population figure you cite is not so stark? Whites make up 78% of arrests, 80% of prosecutions and 81% of those convicted.

So again, I don;t really accept that the system or indeed the police force are inherently racist. However, we do have massive social inequalities in some parts of our country and our cities and I think it is that, plus the gang culture in some urban areas, more than anything that drives the over representation of the black population in the criminal justice system which in turn leads to the police targetting black kids hanging around on the streets and leads to the whole thing becoming self-perpetuating and a "them" v "us" scenario. We need to put money and resources into these poorer areas, find ways of keeping kids off the street and provide some hope/aspiration for the kids living there (whether black or white). And yes we need a more diverse police force who understand these communities better as well as just generally more community policing.

 

2 hours ago, East Rider said:

There have been some very strange views taken here. Please read my experience.

For the record I too am of mixed heritage (I understand this doesn’t give me the monopoly on opinion or right to be correct in every detail- it does mean I have spent over half my life with my obvious mixed heritage face first). I have lived in many areas of the UK.

Were the majority of Milwall fans who booed, expressing racist views? Well of course they were and as I said on another thread, it was bound to happen. But it’s not as simple as that.

I spent a decade in the military in the 80s and 90s which I loved and then undertook a variety of work elsewhere. Over the last two decades I have worked on very many occasions with police forces undertaking a variety of roles. So I’ve mixed with a fair few people. By far the most racist group was those I served with, in the army. It was of course the 80/90s but it was in your face and obvious. I was ‘lucky’ I was tough, from a hard upbringing and very resilient. It ‘s said, if you need dirty work to be done you don’t recruit from Henley of Windsor, you go to the poorer areas of town. Every year we remember those who didn’t come back from various conflicts and rightly so, I can get quite emotional about it. The police work I undertook meant I got to know a lot of them very, very well. I can honestly state I’ve never worked with a more inclusive, open and welcoming bunch of people than police officers. I did not experience or hear a single moment or comment of racist or discriminating behaviour, ever. I would go as far to say that if you are from a BAME background then the police is a very welcome employer and something to seriously consider. However, unlike the military the police are vilified, blamed for every ill and continuously criticized as being a racist organisation. A single suggestion of wrongdoing and even without evidence they are all considered guilty by some commentators. This is in my experience a completely and utterly wrong assumption made by the ignorant and those with an agenda or particular gripe. They are an easy target.

The taking off the knee was poignant and powerful initially when first seen in the USA a few years back, it is obvious there are issues in America. But here in the UK they are not comparable, and with regards the police, not even close. Though some with an agenda would have us believe they are.  The mixed messages from the BLM group who adopted the taking of the knee, the violent protests when in the middle of a pandemic and the disgusting assaults on the police (by the far right groups and the BLM) causes issues for those who would rather a dignified approach. The behaviour of some protesters does not in any way help racial harmony and it is that which I believe has in many ways undermined the taking of the knee. The sentiment is spot on but the ‘Kick it out’ campaign was better delivered.’

Finally, if you really believe the police in London (which is a seriously multi cultural organisation) and elsewhere are mainly driven by racist desire in their stop searches, then I can only presume you are an agitator on a particular narrative or a struggling politician with an election looming. They have been facing an uphill battle for decades trying to reduce murders, stabbings and violent crime predominantly in the black community. The Stephen Lawrence racist murder was even mentioned. He however failed to mention, as many do (as that would not fit the narrative) that the first person who tried to save Stephens life was an off duty police officer after others had walked by. From what I have seen, it is sadly often typically the totally unconnected, comfortably placed and distanced white persons from their arm chairs or ‘bench seat’ that hinder progress and by doing so more victims are made.

I can only speak from my actual and real experiences in life.  

Two excellent posts!

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

You have a long history of ignoring facts you don't like and twisting words so you don't get the privilege of a response. 

It's not just Badger, it's many of those that like to push this agenda.

 

I know it's a little off topic, but this still ties into the overall theme of this thread. It's the ultimate in ignoring facts to promote their views -

 

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by Iwans Big Toe

[Badger 2,405]

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Badger said:

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

5 hours ago, Badger said:

Any link to support this and to enable us to look at the rigour and provenance of said "studies"...

Or do we have to simply rely on your assertion alone? Taking Mr Carrow's cartoon post - are you simply "following the narrative?" 

You have a long history of ignoring facts you don't like and twisting words so you don't get the privilege of a response. 

Or in other words,

"No I don't have any facts and I am relying simply on assertion as I always do." 

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

I have posted facts but you have ignored them. As you always do. 

Yes you may have posted, for example, that Zimmermann is a centre-back but that isn't really relevant RTB - it has to be related to the matter you are discussing.🤦‍♂️

You just have to make a simple link to the "studies" and facts that you claim exist are are central to the point you are arguing - it is quite a common procedure in debate - even A level students have to do it. It is to enable falsifiability - if you want to claim any degree of academic rigour behind what you say you do this. You can't just cite studies as evidence and not even mention the name of the study or you could simply make things up - you must understand this surely? Perhaps you don't, it would explain some of your more exotic opinions 😩

Otherwise it is just your opinion - not necessarily wrong - but without even the veneer of research credibility that you try to claim.

 

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

This is exactly the point I've been trying to make on the two threads. BLM are a part of a wider narrative. It is very difficult to try to describe a different narrative to people who seem completely blinded by their own.

 

[Mr Angry 1,545]

8 hours ago, king canary said:

Not the point of the thread but part of the reason rational debate goes out of the window is because 'defund the police' is a ****ing terrible slogan and people need to stop using it (certainly in the UK).

It wouldn’t really matter if they stopped using it-people who disagree with the concept that black lives matter would continue to use the “defund the police” slogan as an excuse for evermore.

[Badger 2,405]

2 hours ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

It's not just Badger, it's many of those that like to push this agenda.

Iwan's Big Toe and Mr Carrow have previously demonstrated their expertise at what Mr C himself calls Motte and Bailey tactics.

1. The only suggestion that Zimmermann might be a fascist was from Iwan's Big Toe, although he suggested that it came from others.

2. The only reference to "white supremacy" was from Mr Carrow. Again, he implied that it came from others.

One can only guess as to the motivation behind these tactics, but I suspect avoiding the facts of the case are amongst them. The agenda, such as it is, of some of the more reasonable posters on this thread is as follows!

1. Most reasonable people are opposed to the booing of "taking the knee."

2. Most reasonable people suspect that the booing by Millwall fans was probably motivated by racism.

3. Most informed people, believe that racism still exists in society and is present in some of our institutions, including the criminal justice system. 

It is of course, possible to disagree with this view and some have done so intelligently - Jim Smith for example. Unfortunately some on here seem incapable of mature discussion and rely instead upon personal abuse and invention. It says a lot about the paucity of their argument or at the very least their ability to articulate it.