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Taking the knee

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Once again, you simply evade the facts and make things up - it is becoming terminally tedious now, I should know better but will give it one final attempt.

 

5 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I haven't opposed anti-racism gestures. I couldn't give a monkeys what people do with 20 seconds of their time and I don't agree with people booing them for expressing whatever they want to express.

So what the hell have you been arguing about for days?

My focus has been on the philosophy behind BLM and the narrative heist being attempted by the identity politics movement.

You have not discussed what is on the BLM website at all - you have simply set up your own targets to attack

"Whilst it is true that individual statistics do not prove causation".

But still you call anybody who questions what lies behind those statistics a racist (which you expressly did in the quote I provided from the other thread).

No I didn't - read it - if you have any degree of logic, you would agree with what I said

If you want to make such an outrageous claim it is incumbent on YOU to prove it and to explain why other ethnic groups have wildly varying statistics including many that are very positive. In that context the "it's all racism" claim doesn't make much sense does it?

Saying that the system is racist is not the same as saying that it is all racism and that all groups will be equally affected - I have never said this, it is another of your inventions

Your response to my "misandrist transport" point is largely reliant on talking about cultural differences between men and women, something you don't seem to want to acknowledge between different ethnic groups. Why not?

Because misandry is prejudice against men + I was talking about your misunderstanding of statistics in general. Once again you fail to address the statistics and the clear message that they give and fail come up with any meaningful alternative explanation-

Trevor Phillips has stated that people "prefer segregation". If this is true then differing outcomes between different groups is inevitable unless you want to claim that, say, British Carribbean culture is exactly the same as British Pakistani?

Another invention

My mother used to foster seven Bangladeshi kids to ease the burden on a struggling single mother. They moved to Birmingham largely because there were few Bangladeshis in Norwich. A few months later they had to leave Birmingham in a rush under police protection because some of the kids had got involved in an intra-ethnic violent feud. I vacated my house at short notice and moved back in with my parents at the age of 30 so these kids wouldn't be homeless. Big cultural differences between ethnic groups are a fact.

Of course there are - it is your invention that anybody has suggested otherwise.

 

Having dealt with your largely imaginary points, will you now suggest an alternative explanations for the body of data that Kirku produced which to me clearly suggests racism - or do you want to deny all facts and simply rely on anecdote?

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Badger said:

Once again, you simply evade the facts and make things up - it is becoming terminally tedious now, I should know better but will give it one final attempt.

 

Having dealt with your largely imaginary points, will you now suggest an alternative explanations for the body of data that Kirku produced which to me clearly suggests racism - or do you want to deny all facts and simply rely on anecdote?

 

 

 

So anecdotes are not facts ?  Surely they are evidence...... thus facts

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17 minutes ago, paul moy said:

So anecdotes are not facts ?  Surely they are evidence...... thus facts

Good grief, the state of this..

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5 minutes ago, Herman said:

Welcome to the world of Moy.😂

I don't even know where to start! 😂

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26 minutes ago, Badger said:

Once again, you simply evade the facts and make things up - it is becoming terminally tedious now, I should know better but will give it one final attempt.

 

Having dealt with your largely imaginary points, will you now suggest an alternative explanations for the body of data that Kirku produced which to me clearly suggests racism - or do you want to deny all facts and simply rely on anecdote?

 

 

 

 

Dude, the facts quoted literally do not prove any causation whatsoever. I really can't be bothered to find the quote but on the other thread you stated that differences in outcome between ethnic groups is mainly down to discrimination. There is zero proof of this and the varying performances between groups indicate that this is at best dubious. I think it is more down to cultural differences but as there is no way of definitively proving this I stated above that it is difficult, maybe impossible to parse. Just because you and your ideological brethren interpret the statistics a certain way does not make you automatically right my furry friend.

You accused me of "opposing anti-racism gestures". It is then incumbent on YOU to back up that claim. Let's see a quote.

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1 hour ago, kirku said:

I don't even know where to start! 😂

I have many anecdotes based on fact and often use them to explain my case.  I can agree that you may not know where to start as your anecdotes are probably based on lies and hearsay.  Mine are based on personal experience, thus fact.

 

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4 hours ago, Pugin said:

No one is criticising you. But you goofed and it's funny. We all goof 🙂

Listen to Muhammed Ali talking about endemic racism. Many a true word is spoken in jest. For speaking out as he did across the world, to a largely white audience, he showed his trademark bravery and intelligence. Today, in one way or another, he would be destroyed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-52988605

Pugin

Let me know when the book reaches the shops

Remember my mother telling me

“””” You’re not going into the water till you can swim “”””

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I really can't be bothered to find the quote but on the other thread you stated that differences in outcome between ethnic groups is mainly down to discrimination. 

You can't be bothered because there is no such quote - it is simply another one of your inventions.

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On 12/12/2020 at 07:13, kirku said:

Here's a short sample:

"Stop-and-search rates between 2018 and 2019 show that black people are now nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

Black people made up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

White British students are more than three times as likely to achieve high grades than black Caribbean students.

Worse education transfers to worse employment rates for minorities, with black people seeing at least double the unemployment levels as white people between 2004 and 2018.

Black people are paid, on average, 9.90% less than white people. With an average hourly salary of £10.80 compared to £11.87"

So, a black person is 10x more likely to be stopped by police and then significantly more likely to be arrested. If arrested they are disproportionately likely to be imprisoned. They are likely to have had a significantly worse education and have much higher levels of unemployment, and when employed paid roughly 10% less.

Mr Carrow's reply

4 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Just because you and your ideological brethren interpret the statistics a certain way does not make you automatically right my furry friend.

Yes, I do suggest that this is evidence of racism and/ or racial inequality. You have come up with no alternative explanation other than "cultural differences."

 

So explain - what are the cultural differences that lead to:

1. Black people being nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

2. Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

3.Black people making up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

4. White British students are more than three times as likely to achieve high grades than black Caribbean students.

5. Worse employment rates for minorities, with black people seeing at least double the unemployment levels as white people between 2004 and 2018.

6. Black people are paid, on average, 9.90% less than white people. With an average hourly salary of £10.80 compared to £11.87"

What are the cultural factors that explain this then Mr Carrow - explain them, I am very interested to hear. Perhaps one of the books or websites that you like to reference will tell you, because atm you seem to be struggling.

 

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3 hours ago, paul moy said:

I have many anecdotes based on fact and often use them to explain my case.  I can agree that you may not know where to start as your anecdotes are probably based on lies and hearsay.  Mine are based on personal experience, thus fact.

Are you Mr Carrow in disguise? 

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8 hours ago, Move Klose said:

Screenshot_20201213-111523_Twitter.jpg

Zimmerman by all accounts a very intelligent individual so im sure he will have a very sensible reason for why he does not believe in kneeling.

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6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Zimmerman by all accounts a very intelligent individual so im sure he will have a very sensible reason for why he does not believe in kneeling.

Yep totally agree, seems to get very involved with the community side of the club and the proud canaries etc.

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2 hours ago, Badger said:

You can't be bothered because there is no such quote - it is simply another one of your inventions.

"I really can't be bothered to find the quote but on the other thread you stated that differences in outcome between ethnic groups is mainly down to discrimination. "

"The other reason that it is a silly question is that it misunderstands the nature of the problem: black and other minority ethnic groups are poorer largely because of negative discrimination - it therefore follows that removing the discrimination is the key to ending their poverty. Equal and fair access to the employment market, education and legal system and criminal justice would be good places to start."

 
Edited by Mr.Carrow

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2 hours ago, Badger said:

Mr Carrow's reply

Yes, I do suggest that this is evidence of racism and/ or racial inequality. You have come up with no alternative explanation other than "cultural differences."

 

So explain - what are the cultural differences that lead to:

1. Black people being nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

2. Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

3.Black people making up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

4. White British students are more than three times as likely to achieve high grades than black Caribbean students.

5. Worse employment rates for minorities, with black people seeing at least double the unemployment levels as white people between 2004 and 2018.

6. Black people are paid, on average, 9.90% less than white people. With an average hourly salary of £10.80 compared to £11.87"

What are the cultural factors that explain this then Mr Carrow - explain them, I am very interested to hear. Perhaps one of the books or websites that you like to reference will tell you, because atm you seem to be struggling.

 

You do not get to make an incendiary truth claim such as "the system is racist", then demand that others disprove it. This is the "if you can't disprove God, he exists" fallacy.

I've already stated that abject poverty is a scourge on western societies and I believe in a full scale fight against it. I believe certain groups have been more fully pulled into the poverty trap than others for extremely complex reasons.  Racism is one but, yet again, if it's the main one then you have to explain why many ethnic groups are doing really well and in some cases better than white British. How did they thrive if "the system is racist"? In the documentary I linked on the other page the (British Pakistani I believe) police chief stated plainly that different ethnic communities focussed on different kinds of crimes, therefore it follows that there will be different statistics. So, a minimum wage of £15 per hour would be a great start and would disproportionately help black British folk. How does focussing on race help bring that about?

And again, I think viewing the issue through that highly contentious and unprovable lens makes the issues harder to solve, not easier. Working class whites will never accept being told that they are inherently privileged and favoured by "a racist system" when they can clearly see many ethnic groups doing better than them. It's a road to ruin and pure madness.

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15 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

 

 Working class whites will never accept being told that they are inherently privileged and favoured by "a racist system" when they can clearly see many ethnic groups doing better than them.

You are talking about individual experiences not the whole system. All poverty should be tackled, and this is why we need an end to sustained Tory control, but all the evidence points to ethnic minorities needing more help: This is the from the government's own figures. image.thumb.png.57b9bacea817fc2205402cc1f199708b.png

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1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Zimmerman by all accounts a very intelligent individual so im sure he will have a very sensible reason for why he does not believe in kneeling.

It's each players choice whether to protest or not, If they want to kneel let them if they don't who cares. Those small minded enough to boo for players for choosing what they want protest about need to have a word with themselves.

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3 hours ago, Badger said:

Mr Carrow's reply

Yes, I do suggest that this is evidence of racism and/ or racial inequality. You have come up with no alternative explanation other than "cultural differences."

 

So explain - what are the cultural differences that lead to:

1. Black people being nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

2. Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

3.Black people making up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

4. White British students are more than three times as likely to achieve high grades than black Caribbean students.

5. Worse employment rates for minorities, with black people seeing at least double the unemployment levels as white people between 2004 and 2018.

6. Black people are paid, on average, 9.90% less than white people. With an average hourly salary of £10.80 compared to £11.87"

What are the cultural factors that explain this then Mr Carrow - explain them, I am very interested to hear. Perhaps one of the books or websites that you like to reference will tell you, because atm you seem to be struggling.

 

I think it’s important that in this post you say “racial inequalities” rather than racism. There is a difference and there are many cultural and socio economic reasons behind those stats you cite rather than “racism” in my view. Clearly stats we should all be striving to improve. But not evidence of endemic racism. 

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1 hour ago, Jimthechip said:

You are talking about individual experiences not the whole system. All poverty should be tackled, and this is why we need an end to sustained Tory control, but all the evidence points to ethnic minorities needing more help: This is the from the government's own figures. 
 

 

Here is an extract from the Telegraph 

Teachers in London are biased against black Caribbean and white boys from poorer backgrounds, new research suggests.

Education think tank LKMco is calling for urgent steps to be taken to tackle the impact of social inequality on the two groups’ academic achievements.Unconscious prejudices affect the way they are disciplined at school, how their work is assessed, and the academic ability set that they are put in, its study found.It said black Caribbean boys’ attainment in London is 17 percentage points behind the London average for expected standards in reading, writing and maths by the end of primary school. While white male pupils eligible for free school meals are the lowest-attaining of the main ethnic groups in the capital — and the attainment gap widens as they move through secondary school.

The report, which includes interviews with experts, teachers and pupils, calls for teachers and school leaders to be given the training to help minimise the impact of unconscious bias.

It says: “Currently biases may affect black Caribbean and white free school meal-eligible boys’ experiences at school, where they impact upon areas such as setting and streaming, teacher assessment outcomes, and disciplinary measures such as exclusions.

 

 

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I can definitely see unconscious prejudice knocking around. In fact, I'll go several steps further and say if you're not in a nuclear family set-up, you're going to be stigmatised by some quarters of the population.

Bella DePaulo's shown this for single people, whilst Leslie Ashburn-Nardo has shown it for the childfree. I shouldn't need to mention homosexuals.

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1 hour ago, Jimthechip said:

You are talking about individual experiences not the whole system. All poverty should be tackled, and this is why we need an end to sustained Tory control, but all the evidence points to ethnic minorities needing more help: This is the from the government's own figures. image.thumb.png.57b9bacea817fc2205402cc1f199708b.png

I don't think it's exactly a shock that a predominantly white country which had a huge and lucrative empire still has a bigger middle class than fairly recently arrived ethnic groups who mainly arrived poor. I loathe the self-serving middle class with their big inheritance, nepotism, "I know a good lawyer who can sort that", jobs for the boys etc, but I don't think they are driven by racism, merely self interest. They certainly wouldn't let anybody I know into their little club. Interesting to watch them drown out any talk of maybe them paying a bit more tax with pompous, empty Woke virtue signalling.

I believe some of those demographics are steadily closing the gap, whilst others are not? I'd be interested to hear realistic policies to close the gap for underperforming demographics without breeding resentment in working class whites?

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2 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I don't think it's exactly a shock that a predominantly white country which had a huge and lucrative empire still has a bigger middle class than fairly recently arrived ethnic groups who mainly arrived poor. I loathe the self-serving middle class with their big inheritance, nepotism, "I know a good lawyer who can sort that", jobs for the boys etc, but I don't think they are driven by racism, merely self interest. They certainly wouldn't let anybody I know into their little club. Interesting to watch them drown out any talk of maybe them paying a bit more tax with pompous, empty Woke virtue signalling.

I believe some of those demographics are steadily closing the gap, whilst others are not? I'd be interested to hear realistic policies to close the gap for underperforming demographics without breeding resentment in working class whites?

Hang on, that's not quite what you said "if it's the main one then you have to explain why many ethnic groups are doing really well and in some cases better than white British." I showed evidence that none are doing better than white.

I do however agree with you racism is driven by self interest, "keeping them down so my chances are higher". 

You want to dig deeper into poverty you need to look at the steady degradation of education away from skills and towards academia, link that to age where identity politics dictates policy and you are close. There are issues with working class poverty, but getting out of poverty (although not easy) has less barriers if you are white, for all the reasons listed throughout this thread.

I would like to know why the middle class are all to blame and not the ruling class? They have been excellent at diverting blame and attention for some time now.

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33 minutes ago, Jimthechip said:

Hang on, that's not quite what you said "if it's the main one then you have to explain why many ethnic groups are doing really well and in some cases better than white British." I showed evidence that none are doing better than white.

I do however agree with you racism is driven by self interest, "keeping them down so my chances are higher". 

You want to dig deeper into poverty you need to look at the steady degradation of education away from skills and towards academia, link that to age where identity politics dictates policy and you are close. There are issues with working class poverty, but getting out of poverty (although not easy) has less barriers if you are white, for all the reasons listed throughout this thread.

I would like to know why the middle class are all to blame and not the ruling class? They have been excellent at diverting blame and attention for some time now.

On the other thread there was some stats showing a couple of demographics being above whites in the highest quartile. I also believe under 30 it's quite a different picture. Also working class white boys are clearly struggling educationally. That's what I meant by "in some cases".

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3 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

On the other thread there was some stats showing a couple of demographics being above whites in the highest quartile. I also believe under 30 it's quite a different picture. Also working class white boys are clearly struggling educationally. That's what I meant by "in some cases".

You have to go with the official government statistics though. I think U30s are struggling across the board, but it becomes easier to muddy the waters with "some cases". The whole picture indicates systemic issues, and the whole picture indicates issues with racial background, not opinion just what the stats show.

 

You'll not get any argument from me that educationally there are issues with working class (all races). We need to go back to an era of vocational education tailored to those not engaged, unfortunately this is not on the horizon. 

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1 hour ago, Jimthechip said:

You have to go with the official government statistics though. I think U30s are struggling across the board, but it becomes easier to muddy the waters with "some cases". The whole picture indicates systemic issues, and the whole picture indicates issues with racial background, not opinion just what the stats show.

 

You'll not get any argument from me that educationally there are issues with working class (all races). We need to go back to an era of vocational education tailored to those not engaged, unfortunately this is not on the horizon. 

Fair enough. "Issues with racial background" sounds much more nuanced than "the system is racist". I sometimes wonder whether it's possible to have a genuine debate on this subject at all as so much comes down to semantics, interpretation and differing definitions. The Idpol movement seems to be trying to define any difference between groups whatsoever as definitive proof of prejudice and oppression. I think this is both reductive and counter-productive. I really, really wish people would stop throwing the word racist around so readily. It is now the most loaded term in the English language and if any even slightly controversial viewpoint is immediately assailed with the R bomb people stop speaking. It's like constantly throwing grenades into the national conversation and is extremely destructive. And in this time when "punching up" is one of the buzz phrases, most of it seems to be punching down at an increasingly disoriented and resentful working class. I imagine the ruling class watching this ongoing destructive sh*tstorm rubbing their hands with glee....

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5 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Fair enough. "Issues with racial background" sounds much more nuanced than "the system is racist". I sometimes wonder whether it's possible to have a genuine debate on this subject at all as so much comes down to semantics, interpretation and differing definitions. The Idpol movement seems to be trying to define any difference between groups whatsoever as definitive proof of prejudice and oppression. I think this is both reductive and counter-productive. I really, really wish people would stop throwing the word racist around so readily. It is now the most loaded term in the English language and if any even slightly controversial viewpoint is immediately assailed with the R bomb people stop speaking. It's like constantly throwing grenades into the national conversation and is extremely destructive. And in this time when "punching up" is one of the buzz phrases, most of it seems to be punching down at an increasingly disoriented and resentful working class. I imagine the ruling class watching this ongoing destructive sh*tstorm rubbing their hands with glee....

Agree entirely. There is a difference between there being inequalities between certain ethnic or demographic groups and racism. That the former exists does not mean a country or a society is inherently racist. 

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12 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

You do not get to make an incendiary truth claim such as "the system is racist", then demand that others disprove it. This is the "if you can't disprove God, he exists" fallacy.

It is completely different - there is a whole body of empirical evidence that supports the claim - you decline to even review the evidence on the grounds that it is "statistics."

I've already stated that abject poverty is a scourge on western societies and I believe in a full scale fight against it. I believe certain groups have been more fully pulled into the poverty trap than others for extremely complex reasons.  Racism is one but, yet again, if it's the main one then you have to explain why many ethnic groups are doing really well and in some cases better than white British. How did they thrive if "the system is racist"? In the documentary I linked on the other page the (British Pakistani I believe) police chief stated plainly that different ethnic communities focussed on different kinds of crimes, therefore it follows that there will be different statistics. So, a minimum wage of £15 per hour would be a great start and would disproportionately help black British folk. How does focussing on race help bring that about?

This would be good for social equality and I would be broadly in favour of it. Focusing on race would make no difference in bringing it about, although several racial groups would disproportionately benefit. It would not however, necessarily affect other systematic issues.

And again, I think viewing the issue through that highly contentious and unprovable lens makes the issues harder to solve, not easier. Working class whites will never accept being told that they are inherently privileged and favoured by "a racist system" when they can clearly see many ethnic groups doing better than them. It's a road to ruin and pure madness.

Final chance - but I suspect that you will evade it with semantics. If it is not at least partly discrimination please come up with an alternative explanation of the following:

 

1. Black people being nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

2. Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

3.Black people making up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

 

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2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Agree entirely. There is a difference between there being inequalities between certain ethnic or demographic groups and racism. That the former exists does not mean a country or a society is inherently racist. 

Whilst the statement is logical it begs the question:

If the inequalities are persistent how else do you explain their existence? Can you suggest other explanations for the police and criminal system evidence (see below)?

 

1. Black people being nearly 10-times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

2. Not a single police force in England or Wales registered an arrest rate of less than 20 for every 1,000 black people. By contrast, not a single police force in England and Wales registered an arrest rate of more than 20 for every 1,000 white people.

3.Black people making up 10 per cent of the total prison population, whilst making up just 3 per cent of the UK’s total population.

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9 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

. I really, really wish people would stop throwing the word racist around so readily. It is now the most loaded term in the English language and if any even slightly controversial viewpoint is immediately assailed with the R bomb people stop speaking. It's like constantly throwing grenades into the national conversation and is extremely destructive. And in this time when "punching up" is one of the buzz phrases, most of it seems to be punching down at an increasingly disoriented and resentful working class. I imagine the ruling class watching this ongoing destructive sh*tstorm rubbing their hands with glee....

Unfortunately this is the way of things nowadays. Hyperbole invades evert argument. The inappropriate use of the word racism deflects away from the real issues that exist. As does calling some one left leaning Marxist, using the term Woke, the various uses of the word fascism, genuine debate is lost. The country is now so divided that every issue positions itself to the extremes, facts seem irrelevant, everything comes down to name calling. 

It was personal experience that leads me to be sympathetic to this movement. I played rugby to a high level in the late 80s early 90s, the team I played for recruited a player of colour. The change in how opposing fans responded to us was instant, for him to booed every time he had the ball, the monkey noises when we walked off. If we went out in the time he used to get spat at, there always someone to start a fight with him, he was dignified through out and remains a close friend. Since we finished playing I found it easy to find employment, and currently coach and teach in school in deprived areas, hence my passion for changes in education. My friend applied for similar jobs and despite being a better player than me and more qualified struggled to even get interviewed. Eventually he got a post where he is excellent.

This is anecdotal, I am not using this as evidence, just my reason as to why I think players should be respected for taking the knee. I would have if I was still playing out of support for my friend. It would not mean I support political movements, I would respect those that chose not to, all of us have different experiences. If we were booed it would signify to me that people we willing to accept that abuse was OK.  

On a separate note, was the club right to evict the fan. Absolutely yes, the club is a business with a brand image, damage the brand and you lose the potential sponsorship, the eviction was economically crucial. There is a reason that Millwall fail to attract the big sponsors. 

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