Taking the knee

[NFN FC 1,123]

@The Real BuhSome of the knuckle draggers can't (or don't want to) separate the two

[The Real Buh 3,432]

Just now, NFN FC said:

@The Real BuhSome of the knuckle draggers can't (or don't want to) separate the two

This whole thing is a mess. There must be a better more meaningful way of proceeding than this?

[NFN FC 1,123]

1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

This whole thing is a mess. There must be a better more meaningful way of proceeding than this?

A 2 hour interpretive dance session before each game? 

[The Real Buh 3,432]

2 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

A 2 hour interpretive dance session before each game? 

I’ll bring the bongo drums for the bivuac drum circle

[NFN FC 1,123]

1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

I’ll bring the bongo drums for the bivuac drum circle

Better chuck some panpipes in for good measure 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

6 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

I’ll bring the bongo drums for the bivuac drum circle

That's cultural appropriation 😁

[The Real Buh 3,432]

Just now, Mr.Carrow said:

That's cultural appropriation 😁

Dammit! I was so close!

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

Dammit! I was so close!

Not even lukewarm. 😇

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

8 hours ago, Badger said:

Here is an image of Martin Luther King taking the knee in 1965. Clearly he is supporting BLM nearly 60 years before it was founded! 

The only alternative to this is that racists are just using this as an excuse for opposing taking the knee.

No, Badger. Do you actually believe what you have just written?

What they are doing is called prayer. Back in the 1960s a lot of people believed in the Christian religion and prayed to God. BLM, as a Marxist organisation, do not believe in a Christian God and so you should not conflate the actions of MLK, who was a devout Christian, with those of BLM today.

MLK would never have supported BLM if he were alive today as BLM aims are diametrically opposed to MLK's beliefs.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Rock The Boat
spellun

[Badger 2,405]

2 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

I think you believe you are right, you’ve just got used to this cycle of hatred, labelling and witch hunting for your own satisfaction.

I would go as far as saying your reaction to peppering all manner of people with accusations of racism, your self imposed purity test where you are the example we should all follow is evidence that you don’t care about black and ethnic minority people at all. It’s literally all about you and your experience. It’s actually kind of massively shameful.

Thanks again Buh you are spoiling me today with all this unintended praise! 👍

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

4 hours ago, Iwans Big Toe said:

Just reading through the Laws of the game, 'political' slogans, statements or images related to the following are not permitted: 

• any person(s), living or dead (unless part of the official competition name)
• any local, regional, national or international political party/organisation/group, etc.
• any local, regional or national government or any of its departments, offices or functions
• any organisation which is discriminatory
• any organisation whose aims/actions are likely to offend a notable number of people
• any specific political act/even

The act of taking a knee supports a political organisation and it certainly seems to have, rightly or wrongly, offended a notable number of people at the Millwall game. I think if the laws were amended to prohibit players displaying any act, gesture, slogan, statement or image, no matter how noble or worthwhile it's deemed to be, we could all get back to just watching the game.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Mr Angry said:

Like observing Remembrance Day? 😳😳😳

In which of the above offending categories would you put Remembrance Day?

Would you put Gay Pride Month into any of the above categories?

[kirku 1,332]

Those conflating a public display of anti-racism and support of a "Marxist political organisation" are either conmen or the conned.

[king canary 7,605]

8 minutes ago, kirku said:

Those conflating a public display of anti-racism and support of a "Marxist political organisation" are either conmen or the conned.

It does make me wonder if people genuinely think these millionaire footballers are all actually secret marxists.

I heard Needum Onuha (former Man City player, now in the MLS) talking about it and as far as he was concerned the gesture has zero to do with marxism and everything to do with protesting the way black people are treated by society (particularly in America). The gesture only shows support for marxism if you decide it does for you and I believe most of those who complain about it based on this, would likely find another reason to complain about it if it had no BLM links.

[kirku 1,332]

9 minutes ago, king canary said:

It does make me wonder if people genuinely think these millionaire footballers are all actually secret marxists.

I heard Needum Onuha (former Man City player, now in the MLS) talking about it and as far as he was concerned the gesture has zero to do with marxism and everything to do with protesting the way black people are treated by society (particularly in America). The gesture only shows support for marxism if you decide it does for you and I believe most of those who complain about it based on this, would likely find another reason to complain about it if it had no BLM links.

Let's be frank, the gesture has absolutely nothing to do with Marxism.

It's simply a smear by people more interested in sowing further division and stoking up more hatred, or those who wish to use a smokescreen to cover their deeply held racist views.

Those booing have been conned more often than not.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

12 minutes ago, kirku said:

Let's be frank, the gesture has absolutely nothing to do with Marxism.

It's simply a smear by people more interested in sowing further division and stoking up more hatred, or those who wish to use a smokescreen to cover their deeply held racist views.

Those booing have been conned more often than not.

Those being conned are loath  to admit  it.  One of the most  refreshing  things a human can say is " hang on a minute, have I got this wrong?".. 

[Pugin 601]

Those aligning themselves with the Millwall fans who booed are either knowingly or unknowingly taking sides with a group of fans whose reputation will always be darkened by their connection to the vile murder of Stephen Lawrence in 1993.

The same chilling vein of racist extremism is still alive and well within the old school Millwall fanbase. 

They have no deep-seated beliefs about ideology much beyond hatred of those who are not of white Anglo Saxons descent. The rest is smokescreen, clever maybe, but just smokescreen.

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

19 hours ago, chicken said:

 I took part in marches in London against top up to tuition fees in the early 2000's. The overwhelming majority were peaceful and did what we set out to do.

Towards halfway, a bunch of kids, clearly no older than 16 tagged along. They weren't at the start of the march, they didn't have any placards handed out. But they tagged along. No one had any issue, they were old enough to be protesting about the possibility of tuition fees they might face in the next few years. They did interact a little with the actual protest, but minimally. Then, closer to Trafalgar Square where the march ended, they started to become vocal. They were not saying anything in support of the march, they were swearing and throwing insults at people who had stopped to watch the march, with particular intensity and animosity reserved towards the police. In the end other students and I told them to 'go away' or behave. Though I am sure we may have worded it a bit stronger than that. The police had seen what they were doing and didn't want to strong arm youths in the midst of an otherwise incredibly peaceful protest.

They left us in the end when it was clear they weren't welcome.

 

I hope you don't mind me shortening your post, Chicken, as I wanted to highlight something very important that you have written which is core to the issue we have been discussing but which has been overlooked by just about everybody else. And that is about the group of people who inserted themselves into your demonstration - which, of course, you have every right to undertake.

It may well be that this group were our friends from the Socialist Workers Party, as they have a long history of cuckooing themselves into other people's demonstrations. The SWP is not a very large group in numbers probably 200-300 in the country but it is well-organised being a mixture of extreme Marxists plus a number of Anarchists. They operate by inserting themselves into all sorts of different street actions, protests and demonstrations; anything from Extreme Rebellion, GreenPeace, anti-Police, Pro-Abortion, Michael Duggan. SWP objectives are always the same - to create tensions between the demonstrators and the police with a view to creating violence. Their long-term aim is to provoke street violence as a tool to overthrow the state.

While SWP is a UK-based organisation, there exist similar organisations in the US where they are particularly active in the race arena. So whenever there is a racial incident involving the police and the local community responds to that, the Marxist-Anarchist groups swiftly move in to escalate protests in violent confrontations with the police.

It would seem that on your particular demonstration you guys were aware to the threat posed by this small group that tagged along and you were successful in preventing your cause being hijacked.

What we know about BLM is that the founders of this organisation are known to be Marxist, but to be fair I don't know how far along the spectrum they are and how much involvement they have with Anarchists. Though I have seen a few clips of some of the BLM leaders caught on camera or in old tweets where they disseminate some pretty despicable points of view. We are all aware of the huge amount of violence that have accompanied BLM events, mainly in the US, but there has been some rollover to the UK as well. 

We also have seen some cleanup of the BLM image in recent weeks. They have gone through their online presence removing a lot of the excessive language and more objectional demands. But they can't eradicate everything on the internet as it always leaves a footprint behind.

So although many people now deny the linkage between BLM the Marxist-inspired organisation and footballers taking the knee, the traces are there to be found if you care to look.

If we want to have a blueprint for the type of society we want to create, I look back at the words of Martin Luther King as providing the template to which we should aspire. In my opinion it is one great tragedies of our time that this man was assassinated before he could achieve his goals and we are today all the poorer for it. One of MLK's great insights was that we should judge a man by the content of his character and not the colour of his skin. This directly contradicts the divisive aims of BLM who see white/black, oppressor/victim narrative as driving society forward, and their intention being to flip this relationship to the benefit of their constituency only. This then is the outcome of identity politics - each group fighting for position of power in a hierarchy based on identity privilege - a million miles away from the dreams of Martin Luther King.

Many people today look back to the Germany of 1920-30s and ask how did they allow Hitler gain power? Within a nutshell, it was because they were distracted by the harsh economic times with fallout from WW1 plus the Great Depression, and the fact that the N_azi's tidied up their act for public consumption and co-operated with the ruling politicians of the time, until they were ready to strike out for total control.

One hundred years later there are so many parallels to those times that it becomes worrisome. We have a world distracted by Covid that is about to be hit by the harsh economic realities of lockdown. We have a small but dangerous group that is not adverse to - in fact, quite skilled at -  using violence as a means to achieve outcomes, tidying up its public presentation for public consumption and finding lots of allies among celebrities, the media and the woke.

We need to be careful here. do we really ban a guy from a football club who expresses his opposition to what he perceives as an overtly political act on the playing field? Should we name him to bring pressure on his employer to sack him? Perhaps accuse him of hate speech and jail him? How far are we going with this?

Do we stand with Martin Luther King or do we kneel before BLM?

Edited December 11, 2020 by Rock The Boat

[Bonzo 198]

There is evidently a disconnection between the statement "BLM" (which of course they do) and the political movement of "BLM" which would seem to be a political organisation.

These two are different things. The statement and the political movement.

BLM is also a curious and controversial statement in the sense of whom the intended recipient of this message should be.

For example, is this a statement intended for Black people? To my mind probably not. A black person presumably already knows that their own life matters as do the lives of their family.

So my conclusion is rightly or wrongly that the statement "Black Lives Matter" is intended for white people based on the assumption that hopefully Black people already value themselves (which of course they should do).

If this is the case then the statement "Black Lives Matter" must be based on the premise that White people do not think that Black Lives matter and whilst this could be true for some white people it could also be argued that the statement "Black Lives Matter" is thus a form of Gas-lighting of white people. Perhaps not as overtly as the statement "All white people are racist" but this is more or less the intended message because who exactly is saying that black lives do not matter? Not me. Probably not you. Clearly not black people. Which leaves white people or maybe Asians. But given that the statues which BLM are targeting are universally those of white people I think we can give the Asians a free pass on this one. 

As a consequence of this premise it might also be reasoned that the statement "Black Lives Matter" is therefore racist in itself given the presumed intent to Gaslight white people by making such a statement. 

Campaigning against racism with a racist slogan like this seems a little bit like fornicating for virginity. It is the gambit of the race baiter and condemns all white people universally and unfairly so. 

On the matter of deaths in police custody (and thus the idea of taking the knee)  here in the UK there have been 160 in the last 10 years of whom 13 have been black people. Statistically given the arrest figures and relative distribution of ethnicity of people arrested a white person is almost 25% more likely to die in police custody in the UK than a black person. This adds further to the sense that the BLM campaign itself is Gas-lighting white people as their is no rationale or evident basis to transpose the injustice of US police brutality to our own police force or society. 

There is no doubt that racism exists and that it exists in football but to Blithely adopt the BLM campaign as a vehicle to confront it in the UK is both morally wrong and hypocritical and furthermore because BLM also ties to a specific political movement it seems to be at odds with the ideal that politics and football should be separate.  

"Kick racism out of football" was intended to do just that and not to identify white people as the victimisers of black people or to condemn all white people as BLM has done but instead to unite all colours against this evil. Martin Luther King was famous for asking for his children to be treated just like everyone else and instead of attributing victim and victimiser statues to various communities his focus was on what united us as humans. One would hope that he too would condemn the single interest politics of the modern day for this reason.

Indeed, BLM seems to act solely as the vehicle for a single interest group which is intent of advancing itself by using white guilt and the gas-lighting of white people as its methodology. Whilst football should take a strong stand against racism BLM is not the vehicle for this unless the actual intention is to exact some sort of retribution against white football supporters by invoking white guilt or gas lighting white football supporters or even just to simply to virtue signal without really giving any proper thought to what BLM is really about either as a statement or as a political movement.

Kick Racism out of football was and is a far better vehicle, it managed to serve it's purpose without being racist in and of itself and also without being confused with a political movement. Let's bring it back. 

 

 

[chicken 2,624]

8 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Exactly.

What I find baffling is that people readily and correctly criticise the likes of Amazon, Starbucks, etc., but then never take a logical step further and stop buying from them instead. I haven't touched anything from those companies for years.

Sometimes it's an economical argument.

Most people would agree that animals need to be treated better and support free range and organic etc. Problem is, they still buy the battery hen eggs and non organic meat. Price has a huge say in that.

Amazon has prime, and if you pay for that you are likely to make use of the other things you get with it. And it can be cheap, like ebay. The issue isn't getting these big corporations to accept larger tax burdens, but to actually pay the tax they should pay in the first place. Out country is crap at it. They don't pay for a couple of years, we chase them, then accept a lot less than they should have paid.

They can pay the tax they should pay. But they don't. That's a governmental thing. Until it's put on a manifesto there is little anyone can do about it but protest.

[Petriix 2,835]

I'd really prefer to keep the political arguments out of this, because it's a football forum and should be focussed on football. It amazes me how many racists are happy to publicly announce their deplorable views in this very thread. That in its self is enough of a demonstration of why this issue is so important and why us decent folk need to keep challenging them. Thankfully , even though noisy, the racists are in the minority and we will continue to make it clear that they are not welcome at *our* club.

<politics>As for the Marxism... I find it baffling that people see Socialism or Marxism as extreme given that we are living under the most extreme right-wing government in history who are funnelling billions into the hands of their mates in the most corrupt and incompetent way imaginable. We are facing the double economic blows of Brexit and Covid against a backdrop of catastrophic climate change on the horizon. Surely now is a fairly sensible time to ask some serious questions about the economic future of our country? We need some new ideas rather that listening to the out of touch views of a bunch of public school toffs.</politics>

[The Real Buh 3,432]

5 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I'd really prefer to keep the political arguments out of this, because it's a football forum and should be focussed on football. It amazes me how many racists are happy to publicly announce their deplorable views in this very thread. That in its self is enough of a demonstration of why this issue is so important and why us decent folk need to keep challenging them. Thankfully , even though noisy, the racists are in the minority and we will continue to make it clear that they are not welcome at *our* club.

<politics>As for the Marxism... I find it baffling that people see Socialism or Marxism as extreme given that we are living under the most extreme right-wing government in history who are funnelling billions into the hands of their mates in the most corrupt and incompetent way imaginable. We are facing the double economic blows of Brexit and Covid against a backdrop of catastrophic climate change on the horizon. Surely now is a fairly sensible time to ask some serious questions about the economic future of our country? We need some new ideas rather that listening to the out of touch views of a bunch of public school toffs.</politics>

Get help mate. Before you climb up a crane and smoke some weed and pretend to be a hero.

glad you agree with me on the thread being moved because of excessive politics

[Mr Angry 1,555]

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

 

In which of the above offending categories would you put Remembrance Day?

Would you put Gay Pride Month into any of the above categories?

I think you have misunderstood my point.

IBT suggested that any act, gesture, slogan, statement or image, no matter how noble or worthwhile, should be banned. I used Remembrance Day as an example of one that would be banned under this suggestion, with my 😳 indicating what I thought of that.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

I think the reason that some rightly or wrongly do associate the taking the knee with the BLM organisation (as opposed to as a more general anti racism gesture) is probably because when this practice of taking the knee was brought in the premier league and sky constantly flashed up the BLM logo and players had it written on their shirts etc. At that point, the two were clearly linked. It was only when some of the more extreme idiological sentiments behind the BLM organisation began to surface (including some arguably antisemitic tweets from one account) that football and the authorities started to distance themselves from it earlier this year. 

That has perhaps rather unfortunately muddied the waters on this subject. 
 

[Naturalcynic 629]

2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

 

It may well be that this group were our friends from the Socialist Workers Party, as they have a long history of cuckooing themselves into other people's demonstrations. The SWP is not a very large group in numbers probably 200-300 in the country but it is well-organised being a mixture of extreme Marxists plus a number of Anarchists. They operate by inserting themselves into all sorts of different street actions, protests and demonstrations; anything from Extreme Rebellion, GreenPeace, anti-Police, Pro-Abortion, Michael Duggan. SWP objectives are always the same - to create tensions between the demonstrators and the police with a view to creating violence. Their long-term aim is to provoke street violence as a tool to overthrow the state.

While SWP is a UK-based organisation, there exist similar organisations in the US where they are particularly active in the race arena. So whenever there is a racial incident involving the police and the local community responds to that, the Marxist-Anarchist groups swiftly move in to escalate protests in violent confrontations with the police.

It would seem that on your particular demonstration you guys were aware to the threat posed by this small group that tagged along and you were successful in preventing your cause being hijacked.

What we know about BLM is that the founders of this organisation are known to be Marxist, but to be fair I don't know how far along the spectrum they are and how much involvement they have with Anarchists. Though I have seen a few clips of some of the BLM leaders caught on camera or in old tweets where they disseminate some pretty despicable points of view. We are all aware of the huge amount of violence that have accompanied BLM events, mainly in the US, but there has been some rollover to the UK as well. 

We also have seen some cleanup of the BLM image in recent weeks. They have gone through their online presence removing a lot of the excessive language and more objectional demands. But they can't eradicate everything on the internet as it always leaves a footprint behind.

So although many people now deny the linkage between BLM the Marxist-inspired organisation and footballers taking the knee, the traces are there to be found if you care to look.

Just as a case in point, a report today in The Independent of a BLM demonstration (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/black-lives-matter-tottenham-police-protest-b1770169.html) features a statement from a chap called Gary McFarlane who is described as being from the Black Lives Matter Movement.  It doesn’t take much searching to uncover the fact that McFarlane is a long-term SWP activist.  Indeed, the photos of the demo show the usual placards from SWP offshoot organisations being carried by many of the demonstrators.  Whether some commenters on here choose to pretend otherwise, there’s little doubt that BLM is a political organisation with clear links to the far-left.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Naturalcynic

[NFN FC 1,123]

6 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Just as a case in point, a report today in The Independent of a BLM demonstration (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/black-lives-matter-tottenham-police-protest-b1770169.html) features a statement from a chap called Gary McFarlane who is described as being from the Black Lives Matter Movement.  It doesn’t take much searching to uncover the fact that McFarlane is a long-term SWP activist.  Indeed, the photos of the demo show the usual placards from SWP offshoot organisations being carried by many of the demonstrators.  Whether some commenters on here choose to pretend otherwise, there’s little doubt that BLM is a political organisation with clear links to the far-left.

Has anyone said that BLM movement isn't a far-left organisation? If so where? Because I've missed it

[ELYOUKAYEE 37]

8 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Just as a case in point, a report today in The Independent of a BLM demonstration (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/black-lives-matter-tottenham-police-protest-b1770169.html) features a statement from a chap called Gary McFarlane who is described as being from the Black Lives Matter Movement.  It doesn’t take much searching to uncover the fact that McFarlane is a long-term SWP activist.  Indeed, the photos of the demo show the usual placards from SWP offshoot organisations being carried by many of the demonstrators.  Whether some commenters on here choose to pretend otherwise, there’s little doubt that BLM is a political organisation with clear links to the far-left.

Thanks for pointing this out mate! Keep the evidence coming in as to why people are right to boo the act of taking the knee.... At least until the "Knuckle Dragging" Footballers understand who they're supporting (And then agree to pay considerably more in taxes as per the requirements of said certain political organisation).

[Mello Yello 2,289]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

I'd really prefer to keep the political arguments out of this, because it's a football forum and should be focussed on football. It amazes me how many racists are happy to publicly announce their deplorable views in this very thread. That in its self is enough of a demonstration of why this issue is so important and why us decent folk need to keep challenging them. Thankfully , even though noisy, the racists are in the minority and we will continue to make it clear that they are not welcome at *our* club.

<politics>As for the Marxism... I find it baffling that people see Socialism or Marxism as extreme given that we are living under the most extreme right-wing government in history who are funnelling billions into the hands of their mates in the most corrupt and incompetent way imaginable. We are facing the double economic blows of Brexit and Covid against a backdrop of catastrophic climate change on the horizon. Surely now is a fairly sensible time to ask some serious questions about the economic future of our country? We need some new ideas rather that listening to the out of touch views of a bunch of public school toffs.</politics>

[Mr.Carrow 376]

9 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

I haven’t said anything of the sort, never made any racist remarks at all. Anywhere. where do you get off saying that? What’s wrong with you? What kind of a sh1t childhood did you have that you think you can just accuse people of that with no justification?

I heard you abuse animals btw. I don’t have any evidence of it but I’m just going to say it to make myself feel big. Why do you abuse animals?

I reckon he might start abusing frogs....😁

[Herman 9,756]

Anybody that doesn't want us to carry on taking the knee raise your right arm. 

[NFN FC 1,123]

🙋‍♂️ I've made my position clear already