Taking the knee

[horsefly 4,298]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Written by an esteemed African American academic (for context "White Fragility" is one of the biggest selling books of recent decades in the US):

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/dehumanizing-condescension-white-fragility/614146/

And how many references do you want from esteemed African American academics and writers who claim the opposite? Such horse trading demeans the debate and gets nowhere.

Just a shame that a simple act of promoting racial equality can't be taken for what it is, and respected as such.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

17 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I've said above that its perfectly understandable for the players to get upset if they thought a different phrase was used and the fact the players all showed solidarity is a positive thing.

However, there is plenty of footage/video of the event and the exchanges and it doesn;t really seem to be in dispute what was said. The official, speaking in Romanian, used the Romanian word for black. The officials didn;t misunderstand language, they used their own language and the players/coaches appear to have thought he said something else. 

He said Negru... The teams found it sufficient to walk off... Maybe we should find the teams for not understanding Romanian? Surely, a game in France between two teams, one from Turkey one from France should be referred by people that understand the Negru would be deemed massively offensive. Of course you know 100% it was Negru and that he didn't say negro? By the way, if you were in a meeting and there was 4 white guys and a black guy around a table, you would be ok to point out someone by saying "the black guy"? I really won't be....

The game is being replayed and there will be an investigation and we will find out the truth. I support the right of players to leave a pitch based on the perceived abuse they get, just as every decent work place ..

I find it weird that people would call into question the coaches actions not being there or having experience of this kind of thing.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

10 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Utter nonsense! What example have I introduced in the second paragraph? None of course, I have merely pointed out that there is not one anti-racist organisation that promulgates the view that under no circumstances is it acceptable to refer to a person's skin colour.  

But no suprise there, coming as it does from someone who thinks all people who take the knee thereby support Marxist revolutionary politics.

As I said, completely un-selfaware.

The irony here is that I'm probably closer to being a Marxist than you are. The divisiveness inherent in identity politics is antithetical to Marxism and thinkers who lean that way such as Zizek, Chomsky and Hitchens have spoken out against it. The World Socialist Website, for example, has taken a lot of heat for speaking out against Idpol and cancel culture.

[horsefly 4,298]

1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

I'm not sure anyone is saying that their complaints should be dismissed out of hand or that it shouldn;t be looked into. Its right that it should be scrutinised. If it transpires the official said something genuinely racist then so be it.

But you've asked the question and i've tried to provide you with an answer as requested. All that people on here have said is that if what was said is as has been widely reported (and not really disputed) then it doesn;t actually appear to be racist. You yourself said "If you don't understand that the context of an utterance is crucial to determining whether it is racist or not." 

Conversely, there have been multiple social media posts/articles etc who have simply taken as a given that Webo was "racially abused" by the 4th official.

I think you have (not purposively) misconstrued my point about the importance of the context of an utterance. My point is that a statement like "that black guy" could be innocent but ALSO could expose an underlying racist attitude. From what I've seen of Demba Ba's response, that seemed to be his complaint. He didn't seem to be claiming that the official used what would be the equivalent of the N word. And in the context of the game it is very important that the officials are seen to be free of prejudices that might influence their judgement (note the outcry on here when the Luton player hugged the ref). Hopefully this will be cleared up with a proper investigation.

[seanthecanary 168]

6 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

I find it weird that people would call into question the coaches actions not being there or having experience of this kind of thing.

Do you really find it weird though?  People see and hear what they want to.  Some people see George Floyd as a victim of the police officer than kneeled on his neck, others are happy to portray it as the whole thing being his own fault for using a fake $20 note and having a criminal record.

Edited December 9, 2020 by seanthecanary

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

3 minutes ago, seanthecanary said:

Do you really though?  People see and hear what they want to.  Some people see George Floyd as a victim of the police officer than kneeled on his neck, others are happy to portray it as the whole thing being his own fault for using a fake $20 note and having a criminal record.

As much as I get annoyed, at least on here we are having (a mostly) civilised discussion and it proves that racism and it's issues are very much alive and kicking. 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

On 08/12/2020 at 09:11, Naturalcynic said:

To reiterate, much as some might wish to pretend otherwise, “taking a knee” is perceived as being inextricably linked with BLM.  Many feel it is inappropriate for football to overtly symbolise its support for that particular extremist movement, particularly when there are already highly successful and non-divisive anti-racism campaigns in place such as “Kick it out”.

You’re a blatant racist, aren’t you?

 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

On 08/12/2020 at 09:35, Petriix said:

Many people use the well-known tactic of pretending that you are saying something different to what you are actually saying in order to give the appearance of defeating your point. It's called a straw man argument. 

By pretending that making a simple gesture for racial equality is somehow linked to a sinister undercurrent, racists are attempting to silence and undermine the call for change.

In one 🎯 

[ELYOUKAYEE 37]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

So do you want to play the game of finding crackpots from whatever organisation to prove that all the claims of that organisation should be renounced? I think you'll find that a rather futile pastime. Much better to deal with the real arguments I think,

Why blame all ****'s for the views of Hitler, Himmler and a few other "crackpots".... Schindler was alright weren't he, let's bring back the **** salute as not all ****'s were bad.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

On 08/12/2020 at 12:44, Rock The Boat said:

I'd like to ask all those who want to see footballers continue taking the knee whether they have introduced taking the knee each morning in their places of work?

🤦🏻‍♂️

I know you’re a dense Trump supporter so I’ll remind you that TV coverage of football reaches 100’s of millions worldwide.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Alex Moss

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

My teenage son thought by 'taking the knee' footballers were imitating the actions of the US Cop...

 

 

 

 

[ELYOUKAYEE 37]

The biggest driving factor of Racism in this country is HUGE wealth inequality, driven by political polices of the last 40+ years introduced mainly by the Conservative Party and a "Basketcase" Labour Party under Tony Blair.

All these Middle Class, Middle-Aged people supporting this, think that a simple "Gesture" at the beginning of a football game is gonna solve it, when actually they're gonna have to pay more taxes, have the 1 'buy to let' instead of 2 and redistribute the wealth.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

Edited December 9, 2020 by ELYOUKAYEE
Grammatical Errors

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

1 minute ago, Norfolk Mustard said:

My teenage son thought by 'taking the knee' footballers were imitating the actions of the US Cop...

 

 

 

 

Time to educate your son then. 

Plenty of adults  dont understand  it either  ....as evidenced  on here.

At least he's  a teenager , and has much time to learn.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

This is what an investigation is for. What does baffle me a little is that Romanian and French are both Latin languages, so I would expect the word for "black" to be similar. In Romanian it's "negru", in Latin it's "negra" (the Porta Negra, in Trier, would be a fine example), but in French it's "noir". I don't think, from the years I studied French, albeit 25 years ago, there is a French word for "black" that is similar to the N-bomb unlike the Romanian and Latin examples there.

Mbappe seemed to be in agreement with Demba Ba over it, that's for sure.

[jaywick_canery 28]

BLM is all about intimidation and 'daring' those they accuse to answer back..

 

Jobs and careers are at stake so they know they will get away with it.

[Fr. Chewy Louie 137]

11 minutes ago, ELYOUKAYEE said:

The biggest driving factor of Racism in this country is HUGE wealth inequality, driven by the polices of the last 40+ years led mainly by the Conservative party and a "Basketcase" Labour party under Tony Blair.

All these Middle Class, Middle-Aged people supporting this, think that a simple "Gesture" at the beginning of a football game is gonna solve it, when actually they're gonna have to pay more taxes, have the 1 'buy to let' instead of 2 and redistribute the wealth.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

Actually yes, I largely agree with your first paragraph.

I don't think anyone claims that the gesture is going to solve racism on its own though.

[BroadstairsR 2,163]

Not bothered about it either way. It's a worthy gesture and almost certainly unrelated to the more extreme politics of the matter.

It will need to end some time. Nothing is forever. Perhaps a ceremonial last 'take' would be appropriate, rather in the way the weekly clapping of our NHS was finalised.

I'm sure attitudes towards it would quickly change on this forum should Teemu Pukki pull a muscle in the act and be out for a few months.

Edited December 9, 2020 by BroadstairsR

[horsefly 4,298]

Just now, Mr.Carrow said:

As I said, completely un-selfaware.

The irony here is that I'm probably closer to being a Marxist than you are. The divisiveness inherent in identity politics is antithetical to Marxism and thinkers who lean that way such as Zizek, Chomsky and Hitchens have spoken out against it. The World Socialist Website, for example, has taken a lot of heat for speaking out against Idpol and cancel culture.

Kind of you to comment on my state of self-awareness ( "self-aware" requires a hyphen btw) but I note that you don't respond to my points. Never mind!

I find your obsession with identity politics quite bizarre. I too have little truck with some of the stuff that is grouped under this term (no platforming for example), but I find the term so extremely vague  that one begins to think people use it as a convenient way to rubbish anything they don't happen to agree with (similar to the use of the term "political correctness"). I prefer a finer grained type of criticism that attempts to respond to the actual claims being made in some particular case rather than dismissing it as just another example of identity politics.

In this case we were (supposed to be) talking about the simple 15 second act of taking the knee to show solidarity for the cause of racial equality. My claim is that upon analysis it really does wear its heart on its sleeve as a simple expression of ant-racism. Your claim seems to be that it intractably coerces those who support it into unknowing support for the Marxist revolutionary aims of a certain few members of BLM. It is perhaps pertinent to note here that taking the knee originated in the protests of footballers in the NFL and not BLM.

I'm sure that the 15 second protest irks a significant section of the population (why it should do so I find hard to comprehend), and no doubt there will come a point when the authorities will need to consider how to move on from it in a positive way. I just find it sad that a group of fans felt the need to boo and disrespect an act promoting racial equality. But I feel most sad for the Millwall player Mahlon Romeo who was "deeply hurt" by his own fans behaviour.

You'll no doubt be pleased to hear that I intend those to be my final words on this particularly topic. I see little evidence that anyone (including myself) is likely to change their attitudes on the subject. Pretty much all the relevant arguments have been exhausted and it becomes somewhat pointless merely repeating the same analysis. So I will respectfully agree to disagree.

 

 

 

 

[horsefly 4,298]

33 minutes ago, ELYOUKAYEE said:

Why blame all ****'s for the views of Hitler, Himmler and a few other "crackpots".... Schindler was alright weren't he, let's bring back the **** salute as not all ****'s were bad.

Get help!

 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

7 minutes ago, Fr. Chewy Louie said:

Actually yes, I largely agree with your first paragraph.

I don't think anyone claims that the gesture is going to solve racism on its own though.

No gesture solves anything

The differing death rates in Covid shows what years of austerity does to the health of poorer communities. When those areas, get left behind it's easy for our politicians to blame foreigners and outsiders... And racism rises. As it has done in the last four years.

The BLM movement want a bigger percentage of money going to tackle the causes of crime rather than dealing with the aftermath of crime. 

The gesture keeps it being talked about.... 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

1 minute ago, Kenny Foggo said:

The BLM movement want a bigger percentage of money going to tackle the causes of crime rather than dealing with the aftermath of crime

Seems sensible enough. Prevention  is nearly always preferable to  cure.  I dont think you can 'cure' crime anyway   ,  but maybe you can prevent...or more realistically  , reduce  crime.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

45 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Kind of you to comment on my state of self-awareness ( "self-aware" requires a hyphen btw) but I note that you don't respond to my points. Never mind!

I find your obsession with identity politics quite bizarre. I too have little truck with some of the stuff that is grouped under this term (no platforming for example), but I find the term so extremely vague  that one begins to think people use it as a convenient way to rubbish anything they don't happen to agree with (similar to the use of the term "political correctness"). I prefer a finer grained type of criticism that attempts to respond to the actual claims being made in some particular case rather than dismissing it as just another example of identity politics.

In this case we were (supposed to be) talking about the simple 15 second act of taking the knee to show solidarity for the cause of racial equality. My claim is that upon analysis it really does wear its heart on its sleeve as a simple expression of ant-racism. Your claim seems to be that it intractably coerces those who support it into unknowing support for the Marxist revolutionary aims of a certain few members of BLM. It is perhaps pertinent to note here that taking the knee originated in the protests of footballers in the NFL and not BLM.

I'm sure that the 15 second protest irks a significant section of the population (why it should do so I find hard to comprehend), and no doubt there will come a point when the authorities will need to consider how to move on from it in a positive way. I just find it sad that a group of fans felt the need to boo and disrespect an act promoting racial equality. But I feel most sad for the Millwall player Mahlon Romeo who was "deeply hurt" by his own fans behaviour.

You'll no doubt be pleased to hear that I intend those to be my final words on this particularly topic. I see little evidence that anyone (including myself) is likely to change their attitudes on the subject. Pretty much all the relevant arguments have been exhausted and it becomes somewhat pointless merely repeating the same analysis. So I will respectfully agree to disagree.

 

 

 

 

If you read my posts again you will see that I haven't even given an opinion on taking the knee or Millwall fans antics. However, the act is inextricably linked with BLM and my focus has been on the roots/philosophy of the movement and whether it's taking culture in a healthy direction or can in any way lead to the greater equality we both want to see.

I talk about identity politics because BLM grew from Critical Race Theory which explicitly calls for a race based white/black oppressor/victim analysis of culture. This in turn stemmed from Marcuse and the Frankfurt School thinkers reinvention of Marxist proletariat/bourgeoisie dichotomy switching it to identity groups (sometimes called neo-Marxism). If you add in the post-modern obsession with"controlling the narrative" then you have a very clear, intentional movement which seems intent on pitting different identity groups against each other.

This is very difficult to explain, hence the links to books and various thinkers but putting it simply- I still believe in the utility of the original Marxist analysis but I find the twisting of it by the neo-Marxists genuinely frightening and divisive. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Mr.Carrow

[Haus 259]

57 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Seems sensible enough. Prevention  is nearly always preferable to  cure.  I dont think you can 'cure' crime anyway   ,  but maybe you can prevent...or more realistically  , reduce  crime.

Yes and specifically in America where they currently spend masses on military equipment, training courses for their police by militaries in other countries, have a very short training period and are then given a badge and a gun and sent out to crack on.  

 

The defund the police movements aim is to move it closer to the type of policing we have here and in Europe, where we spend less money on weapons, and more on training, community engagement, social work etc etc.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 minute ago, Haus said:

Yes and specifically in America where they currently spend masses on military equipment, training courses for their police by militaries in other countries, have a very short training period and are then given a badge and a gun and sent out to crack on.  

 

The defund the police movements aim is to move it closer to the type of policing we have here and in Europe, where we spend less money on weapons, and more on training, community engagement, social work etc etc.

The problem is, defunding the police in the USA may result in even less training given to policemen who arguably need even more of it in the first place.

[Haus 259]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

The problem is, defunding the police in the USA may result in even less training given to policemen who arguably need even more of it in the first place.

The average police department spends 168 hours training new recruits on firearms, self-defense, and use of force tactics. It spends just nine hours on conflict management and mediation

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

31 minutes ago, Haus said:

The average police department spends 168 hours training new recruits on firearms, self-defense, and use of force tactics. It spends just nine hours on conflict management and mediation

In Scandinavia I think being a police officer is something where a degree is required.

What those stats you quote tell me is not what many would deduce, namely that many would say they need less on firearms and such and more on conflict management. I'd always say in this case that it merely means they need far more conflict resolution training as well.

If they're going to be armed, then I sure as hell want them to be accurate far more often than not!

[ELYOUKAYEE 37]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Get help!

 

I was being Ironic.. judging by most of your comments on here you don't have the ability to think critically enough to understand Irony. 

[ELYOUKAYEE 37]

 

The People behind BLM... That's why I'd boo.

[horsefly 4,298]

1 hour ago, ELYOUKAYEE said:

I was being Ironic.. judging by most of your comments on here you don't have the ability to think critically enough to understand Irony. 

Or you're just crap at being ironic. But by all means stick with your view.

[ELYOUKAYEE 37]

11 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Or you're just crap at being ironic. But by all means stick with your view.

Don't be ashamed of lacking the ability to think critically, it's extremely common. It's why people blindly follow social trends; for example, taking the knee at football games or clapping for the NHS.. 

That's why University's are desperately trying to 'teach' this skill to students.. because multiple generations have grown up without the ability to think critically and we have ended up where we are now...

Edited December 9, 2020 by ELYOUKAYEE