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Taking the knee

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13 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Sorry but you're not answering Demba Ba's question. Are you seriously trying to claim that this was the only way that the official could identify the individual concerned? That he couldn't have just pointed to the individual concerned at said "That guy" as Demba Ba remarked?

Not the only way no. I don;t know how close he was to the guy in question to be honest. But its not racist. People seem to conflate any mention of race or skin colour with racism. If he'd said sarcastically "who do you think it was, the black guy of course" or words to that effect or "I don;t know who it was but let's send the black guy off he was probably involved" then that would be racist.

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3 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

It was one of a number of ways you could identify an individual. If the guy had a yellow hat on you might use that. However fundamentally its not "racist" or "racist abuse" to describe a black man as a black man in this context and if that is where we are moving to then I think its a dangerous and confusing place. in fact I think if thats the case we need to move away from it and stop people walking on egg shells because that just causes more frustration and resentment.

As I have said above if he said it in Romanian then i suspect the use of the romanian word has a bearing on this incident but if not then in my opinion its maybe a case of the current climate encouraging people to find offence where none was intended. 

This is startlingly naive. Your comment that,  "its not "racist" or "racist abuse" to describe a black man as a black man in this context" is precisely the question at issue, so all you're doing here is begging the question. Demba Ba is asking a very simple question regarding why he used a reference to the man's colour to single him out and that requires an answer. The history of racist abuse in football in eastern Europe is an appalling one as many England players would testify. Thus, the complaints of Demba Ba (et al) at the very least deserve to be investigated rather than just tossed off in the manner you suggest. And your point about the Romanian language is entirely orthogonal to the issue Demba Ba is raising.

 

Edited by horsefly

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9 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I'm not sure I would describe having a few non-football threads in the main discussion section as 'anarchy'. 

We need to keep these non topic people in containment that’s the whole reason the non topic board was created. It’s full of absolute creatures and needs to keep them corralled.

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12 minutes ago, The Bristol Nest said:

Footballers taking the knee and the PSG match suspended. That's a football thread but that's not your agenda is it? 

What’s my agenda?

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13 hours ago, Indy said:

I was always taught that racism was a direct hatred aimed directly at someone different, like Hog I’m finding it harder to see where you draw the line and being careful in how you choose your words! A simple conversation could be misheard by a third party and construed as racist!

Is it really racist if it was just a reference to pointing an individual out by their skin colour? I’m not sure that is, something more must have been said, surely?

 

They are basically calling you a racist simply because it gives them power over you.

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12 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

The Romanian word for black could have had a part in this incident but if it’s as described then it’s not “racist abuse” in my book to describe someone as “the black guy” as a form of identification. 

I think the Romanian for black is "negru". That could definitely be a problem, but you'd also think the N-bomb is so loaded nowadays that even those who learn English as a second or third language would probably know to avoid it.

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3 hours ago, horsefly said:

This is startlingly naive. Your comment that,  "its not "racist" or "racist abuse" to describe a black man as a black man in this context" is precisely the question at issue, so all you're doing here is begging the question. Demba Ba is asking a very simple question regarding why he used a reference to the man's colour to single him out and that requires an answer. The history of racist abuse in football in eastern Europe is an appalling one as many England players would testify. Thus, the complaints of Demba Ba (et al) at the very least deserve to be investigated rather than just tossed off in the manner you suggest. And your point about the Romanian language is entirely orthogonal to the issue Demba Ba is raising.

 

But I'm guessing that if a black person was to reference "that white guy" when pointing someone out, that'd be all fine wouldn't it? 

No answer is required. It's just yet another case of people looking for something that isn't there.

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22 minutes ago, alex_ncfc said:

But I'm guessing that if a black person was to reference "that white guy" when pointing someone out, that'd be all fine wouldn't it? 

No answer is required. It's just yet another case of people looking for something that isn't there.

Funny how, you lot who just can't handle claims that racism is a problem in football as it is elsewhere, always seek to deflect the debate by introducing spurious examples. Why not just deal with the actual real life case before us? Analyse that and explain why Demba Ba was wrong to be so upset.

 And may I suggest you also take a critical look at the other tactic prevalent here, which is to impute beliefs to anti-racist campaigners that they have never promulgated. Find me one anti-racism organisation that claims one should never refer to a person's skin colour. 

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2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Funny how, you lot who just can't handle claims that racism is a problem in football as it is elsewhere, always seek to deflect the debate by introducing spurious examples. Why not just deal with the actual real life case before us? Analyse that and explain why Demba Ba was wrong to be so upset.

 And may I suggest you also take a critical look at the other tactic prevalent here, which is to impute beliefs to anti-racist campaigners that they have never promulgated. Find me one anti-racism organisation that claims one should never refer to a person's skin colour. 

I never said racism isn't a problem in football.

But pointing someone out as "the black guy" is not ****ing racist.

Get over yourselves and stop being offended on others behalves.

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4 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

It was one of a number of ways you could identify an individual. If the guy had a yellow hat on you might use that. However fundamentally its not "racist" or "racist abuse" to describe a black man as a black man in this context and if that is where we are moving to then I think its a dangerous and confusing place. in fact I think if thats the case we need to move away from it and stop people walking on egg shells because that just causes more frustration and resentment.

Good post. I was assuming there was some other conversation involved to cause the players to walk off, as what we know has been said and the context around it doesn't really add up as being anything I would classify as racist. It's descriptive and perhaps a little clumsy with what's going on but even that's a little harsh.

If, for example, this was proven to be the entire conversation AND context then i'd have to say I have empathy with people being confused and not knowing what's right / wrong. I'm 28 and I think expecting older generations to follow something like this is naive and incredibly optimistic. 

As always, all the above has the obvious caveat that I'm not black, haven't suffered racist abuse and therefore we have to understand that the players reactions will partially be based on prior experiences etc.

 

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23 minutes ago, alex_ncfc said:

But pointing someone out as "the black guy" is not ****ing racist.

 

Nice to see you engage with Demba Ba's points. If you don't understand that the context of an utterance is crucial to determining whether it is racist or not then there really is no point in try to reason with you. In some contexts "the black guy" would be perfectly acceptable in others not. Such uses of language are not simply abstract semantic statements but performative speech acts that have (and are often meant to have) a material effect on the world. That's why language matters so much in the pursuit of racial equality.

Edited by horsefly

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14 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

The Romanian word for black could have had a part in this incident but if it’s as described then it’s not “racist abuse” in my book to describe someone as “the black guy” as a form of identification. 

If you are working, travelling or in a foreign country I suggest you research what is acceptable and what is not, ignorance is no excuse. Secondly, the term and the how the language is used can be seen as racist and abusive. The person on the end of it found it racist and was backed up by Demba Ba and both teams. The authorities will now look it to and if it's found that racism took place, I hope the official is banned for life. 

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7 minutes ago, ELYOUKAYEE said:

Still wanna support BLM?

FB_IMG_1607513070978.jpg

So do you want to play the game of finding crackpots from whatever organisation to prove that all the claims of that organisation should be renounced? I think you'll find that a rather futile pastime. Much better to deal with the real arguments I think,

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7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Good post. I was assuming there was some other conversation involved to cause the players to walk off, as what we know has been said and the context around it doesn't really add up as being anything I would classify as racist. It's descriptive and perhaps a little clumsy with what's going on but even that's a little harsh.

If, for example, this was proven to be the entire conversation AND context then i'd have to say I have empathy with people being confused and not knowing what's right / wrong. I'm 28 and I think expecting older generations to follow something like this is naive and incredibly optimistic. 

As always, all the above has the obvious caveat that I'm not black, haven't suffered racist abuse and therefore we have to understand that the players reactions will partially be based on prior experiences etc.

 

When you watch the video back the main issue seems to be that Webo thought the 4th official had said negro. As he was led off he repeatedly shouts, "you can;t say negro" or "why did you say negro." This I assume is a reference to the fact that it seems to be widely acknowledged that the 4th official used the Romanian word for black which is negru.

So that appears to be a misunderstanding/misinterpretation of what was being said. I don't blame the black players for being upset if they thoight he'd said negro but once the confusion had been cleared up then that should really have been an end to it. I don;t think it should just be generally accepted, as many seem to do, that just describing a black man as a black man for identification purposes is racist. John Barnes talking sense on this today. 

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27 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Funny how, you lot who just can't handle claims that racism is a problem in football as it is elsewhere, always seek to deflect the debate by introducing spurious examples. Why not just deal with the actual real life case before us? Analyse that and explain why Demba Ba was wrong to be so upset.

 And may I suggest you also take a critical look at the other tactic prevalent here, which is to impute beliefs to anti-racist campaigners that they have never promulgated. Find me one anti-racism organisation that claims one should never refer to a person's skin colour. 

This is so funny. In your first paragraph you do exactly what you call out in the second. So utterly un-selfaware.

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Frequently top officials point to the bench and state the "white guy".... Not! What this week has proven is that there are a lot of people that think black players should be told how to show their disapproval at racism, that politics should not be in sport whilst calling those taking the "kneel" marxists... And now we have "experts" many who probably have never had any "abuse" issues in their life, telling those at the end of abuse, what they should and shouldn't get upset at.... 

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9 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Nice to see you engage with Demba Ba's points. If you don't understand that the context of an utterance is crucial to determining whether it is racist or not then there really is no point in try to reason with you. In some contexts "the black guy" would be perfectly acceptable in others not. Such uses of language are not simply abstract sematic statements but performative speech acts that have (and are often meant to have) a material effect on the world. That's why language matters so much in the pursuit of racial equality.

Ok please then explain why what the 4th official said was racist? The context is that there were several coaches gathered in the bench area. One was black, the rest were not. The referee asked which one needs to be sent off. The 4th official reportedly replied "the black one/guy"

If there had been 4 black coaches and one white coach the 4th official might well have replied "the white guy" if he was the one casuing tgrouble and who he thought should be sent off. 

Ba's point does not stand up in this instance. He does not have a point.

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7 minutes ago, horsefly said:

So do you want to play the game of finding crackpots from whatever organisation to prove that all the claims of that organisation should be renounced? I think you'll find that a rather futile pastime. Much better to deal with the real arguments I think,

100%. Good luck with that though

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Just now, Jim Smith said:

Ok please then explain why what the 4th official said was racist? The context is that there were several coaches gathered in the bench area. One was black, the rest were not. The referee asked which one needs to be sent off. The 4th official reportedly replied "the black one/guy"

If there had been 4 black coaches and one white coach the 4th official might well have replied "the white guy" if he was the one casuing tgrouble and who he thought should be sent off. 

Ba's point does not stand up in this instance. He does not have a point.

You were not there, you do not know if what was said was racist or not. Neither do I... Both teams found it bad enough to walk off. Maybe you think he should have just accepted what he and his team deemed as racist and said nothing? The authorities will investigate and hopefully the truth will out. 

You would rather, not know the facts, state the black coach was lying or maybe cheating. I'd rather not blame the coach (you saying he is a liar? Or maybe cheating?) and hold an investigation.

Ps. Misunderstanding language is 100% no excuse

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1 minute ago, Kenny Foggo said:

You were not there, you do not know if what was said was racist or not. Neither do I... Both teams found it bad enough to walk off. Maybe you think he should have just accepted what he and his team deemed as racist and said nothing? The authorities will investigate and hopefully the truth will out. 

You would rather, not know the facts, state the black coach was lying or maybe cheating. I'd rather not blame the coach (you saying he is a liar? Or maybe cheating?) and hold an investigation.

Ps. Misunderstanding language is 100% no excuse

I've said above that its perfectly understandable for the players to get upset if they thought a different phrase was used and the fact the players all showed solidarity is a positive thing.

However, there is plenty of footage/video of the event and the exchanges and it doesn;t really seem to be in dispute what was said. The official, speaking in Romanian, used the Romanian word for black. The officials didn;t misunderstand language, they used their own language and the players/coaches appear to have thought he said something else. 

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3 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Ok please then explain why what the 4th official said was racist? The context is that there were several coaches gathered in the bench area. One was black, the rest were not. The referee asked which one needs to be sent off. The 4th official reportedly replied "the black one/guy"

If there had been 4 black coaches and one white coach the 4th official might well have replied "the white guy" if he was the one casuing tgrouble and who he thought should be sent off. 

Ba's point does not stand up in this instance. He does not have a point.

Have you a reference for this account of the incident? Has this been agreed by all parties that this is the true account? All I've said is that Demba Ba has raised a serious question that needs a serious answer. If it turns out that he has completely misconstrued events I hope that will be acknowledged by all concerned. I also hope that if his complaint has substance that it too will be acknowledged by all concerned. The problem here is that some of you don't want to accept that there is even a possibility that the use of a statement like "the black guy" could be motivated by overt or implicit racist assumptions or attitudes. I'm inclined to believe that the upset caused to the black players here is genuine, and that they at least deserve to be taken seriously and not simply dismissed out of hand. I hope an investigation will get to the truth of the matter, and am further inclined to let them get on with it before claiming anything further about what happened in this particular case. 

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20 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

This is so funny. In your first paragraph you do exactly what you call out in the second. So utterly un-selfaware.

Utter nonsense! What example have I introduced in the second paragraph? None of course, I have merely pointed out that there is not one anti-racist organisation that promulgates the view that under no circumstances is it acceptable to refer to a person's skin colour.  

But no suprise there, coming as it does from someone who thinks all people who take the knee thereby support Marxist revolutionary politics.

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1 minute ago, horsefly said:

Have you a reference for this account of the incident? Has this been agreed by all parties that this is the true account? All I've said is that Demba Ba has raised a serious question that needs a serious answer. If it turns out that he has completely misconstrued events I hope that will be acknowledged by all concerned. I also hope that if his complaint has substance that it too will be acknowledged by all concerned. The problem here is that some of you don't want to accept that there is even a possibility that the use of a statement like "the black guy" could be motivated by overt or implicit racist assumptions or attitudes. I'm inclined to believe that the upset caused to the black players here is genuine, and that they at least deserve to be taken seriously and not simply dismissed out of hand. I hope an investigation will get to the truth of the matter, and am further inclined to let them get on with it before claiming anything further about what happened in this particular case. 

I'm not sure anyone is saying that their complaints should be dismissed out of hand or that it shouldn;t be looked into. Its right that it should be scrutinised. If it transpires the official said something genuinely racist then so be it.

But you've asked the question and i've tried to provide you with an answer as requested. All that people on here have said is that if what was said is as has been widely reported (and not really disputed) then it doesn;t actually appear to be racist. You yourself said "If you don't understand that the context of an utterance is crucial to determining whether it is racist or not." 

Conversely, there have been multiple social media posts/articles etc who have simply taken as a given that Webo was "racially abused" by the 4th official.

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