Millwall fans boo thier own players taking the knee

[Badger 2,404]

1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

I don't quite understand what post capitalism (whatever that is - the fundamental drives for human beings have always been the same) means in this context. You may recall that we got diverted into the nature of equality and equality of opportunity: my contention is that neither has existed in capitalism, nor in other forms of mass society. I think that you picked up on something that I said to a "libertarian socialist."

 

It isn't going to change the desire for justice & the concept of being rewarded for effort, which for most people means doing a job which you would not do voluntarily.

Whilst justice and reward for effort may be widely desired, I think that they are only attained by a minority in any hitherto existing system: most are under-rewarded, a few are over-rewarded.

The problem is that the suspicion of many is that they're not being treated fairly & others are obtaining privilege & status which they do not deserve; one of the problems with BLM is that it assumes we are all racist

I know that some people say this (of all colours) but I am not confident that it is the official position of BLM - I certainly haven't seen it on their website. Perhaps you have seen it there...?

I suspect that they would define racism differently to you as well. 

(specifically white vs black) which rankles with those of us who are not, which I suspect is the overwhelming majority under 50 or so - racism was certainly much more prevalent amongst my father's generation - & we must apologise & humble ourselves for no good reason. 

Personally I would find the idea of applause much less objectionable as a sign of solidarity & general fellowship with all our fellow men, as it's much less coercive. Because whatever you may say, there's a lot of coercion going on with the kneeling situation.

I have never been forced to kneel - have you? So who has been coerced?

 

[Badger 2,404]

51 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

https://newsthump.com/2020/12/07/millwall-fans-explain-they-booed-blm-to-refute-engels-first-law-of-dialectical-materialism/

Millwall fans explain they booed BLM to refute Engel’s first law of dialectical materialism

 

Sorry - but this was not Engels but Marx.

Strictly speaking Hegel "invented" the dialectic, but Marx applied materialism to it as the driving force - although he did not, as far as I am aware use the term "dialectical materialism" it is quite a good way to to understand his view of history.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

6 hours ago, horsefly said:

Pathetic! You have consistently failed to respond to the points that have been made on repeated occasions. Your only response seems to be "read x or y", clearly you are incapable of presenting the arguments yourself. The logic of the little you have put forward is infantile. To suggest that the support of millions of people for taking the knee to show racial solidarity, further entails that they support the Marxist ideology of a couple of the BLM movement's founders is utterly ridiculous. Or are you suggesting that your support for Jeremy Corbyn entails your further support for his "liking" of a blantantly anti-semitic mural that would have been at home in Na*zi Germany? Or that people who watch Disney films are thereby supporting its founder's virulent and very public anti-semitism?

We are talking about a very simple 15 second act of support for racial solidarity. It's a shame that someone who describes himself as anti-racist can't see it for what it is and instead aligns himself with bigots who would seek to undermine it. I wonder how happy you are to be associated with the likes of Britain First leader Paul Golding

 

If you tell me which points I have failed to respond to I will. However, it's pretty difficult to respond to points made based on misunderstanding or misrepresenting where I'm coming from. It's also difficult to have a reasonable dialogue with people who don't even seem to understand the roots of the beliefs they are so emotionally wedded to, and who get angry when a bit of reading and research is politely suggested.

But, to try to keep it polite and in the interests of our shared humanity, can we cut a deal? You read "Cynical Theories" (and come back and give your opinion if you feel like it), and I'll read a book of your choice which counters my opinion that identity politics is driven by an authoritarian, divisive philosophy and is a huge net negative to the Left? What is your recommendation?

[horsefly 4,273]

OMG! The City players are not only part of a Marxist plot to overthrow capitalism by taking the knee, they're actually trying to turn us into GAY MARXIST REVOLUTIONARIES by wearing rainbow laces. We can only hope that some upstanding RWNJs turn up wearing white laces to boo this outrage. How else will we be able to resist this sinister plot.

https://www.canaries.co.uk/News/2020/december/club-support-rainbow-laces-campaign/

[Badger 2,404]

24 minutes ago, horsefly said:

OMG! The City players are not only part of a Marxist plot to overthrow capitalism by taking the knee, they're actually trying to turn us into GAY MARXIST REVOLUTIONARIES by wearing rainbow laces. We can only hope that some upstanding RWNJs turn up wearing white laces to boo this outrage. How else will we be able to resist this sinister plot.

https://www.canaries.co.uk/News/2020/december/club-support-rainbow-laces-campaign/

Generally, those that oppose Black Lives Matter are also opposed to anti-discrimination measures against the LGBTQ communities.

[ron obvious 1,495]

30 minutes ago, Badger said:

You may recall that we got diverted into the nature of equality and equality of opportunity: my contention is that neither has existed in capitalism, nor in other forms of mass society. I think that you picked up on something that I said to a "libertarian socialist."

I agree, but you apparently think that equality of opportunity is undesirable as an ambition.

31 minutes ago, Badger said:

Whilst justice and reward for effort may be widely desired, I think that they are only attained by a minority in any hitherto existing system: most are under-rewarded, a few are over-rewarded

Again I agree, but is this aspiration wrong?

31 minutes ago, Badger said:

I know that some people say this (of all colours) but I am not confident that it is the official position of BLM - I certainly haven't seen it on their website. Perhaps you have seen it there...?

I suspect that they would define racism differently to you as well. 

"We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise." Well that certainly suggests some sort of conspiracy on behalf of white people.

31 minutes ago, Badger said:

I have never been forced to kneel - have you? So who has been coerced?

I'm not referring to me but you can imagine being a football player & not doing so? Compare & contrast to singing the National Anthem ...

[Badger 2,404]

13 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

I agree, but you apparently think that equality of opportunity is undesirable as an ambition.

I think that it is better than we have now, but hardly something that I would have as an ambition as it would lead to another deeply unfair society.

15 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

59 minutes ago, Badger said:

Whilst justice and reward for effort may be widely desired, I think that they are only attained by a minority in any hitherto existing system: most are under-rewarded, a few are over-rewarded

Again I agree, but is this aspiration wrong?

No - it is a laudable aspiration and the basis of a fair society.

19 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

I'm not referring to me but you can imagine being a football player & not doing so? Compare & contrast to singing the National Anthem ...

Well, some (most) F1 drivers have refused, but obviously F1 racing is predominantly a white-dominated sport so I agree that it would be easier to avoid taking an anti-racist stance where fewer of your colleagues are black and the prevalent culture is discriminatory - you don't have to explain your attitudes to your colleagues because they probably share them. Not sure that the National Anthem is a comparable situation.

28 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

"We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise."

I missed this earlier. Surely you are not suggesting that Black Lives should be systematically targeted for demise? If not, what is the problem with working for a world where this is not the case. I would happily work for such a world, and one where those who are disabled (and other disadvantaged groups) are no longer systematically targeted for demise as well. What is wrong with it - surely it should be an aspiration of all of us?

[ron obvious 1,495]

3 minutes ago, Badger said:

I think that it is better than we have now, but hardly something that I would have as an ambition as it would lead to another deeply unfair society.

If you don't give everyone equality of opportunity where is the justice in that? Inevitably there will be inequality of outcome because we all have different talents. We can ameliorate the consequences of that but to try & prevent it by handicapping people from the beginning is not I feel a good idea.

3 minutes ago, Badger said:

No - it is a laudable aspiration and the basis of a fair society.

This seems to contradict what you said above.

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

Not sure that the National Anthem is a comparable situation.

Why not?

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

I missed this earlier. Surely you are not suggesting that Black Lives should be systematically targeted for demise? If not, what is the problem with working for a world where this is not the case. I would happily work for such a world, and one where those who are disabled (and other disadvantaged groups) are no longer systematically targeted for demise as well. What is wrong with it - surely it should be an aspiration of all of us?

But the assumption is that Black lives are being systematically targeted, which I don't think is true.

[paul moy 235]

2 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

They were booing the actions of their players, which is exactly the same thing - we normally boo players when we don't approve of what they are doing or what they've just done, and when I say don't approve I actually mean disagree vociferously.

Indeed, booing the actions but not booing the players.  Many players are now too scared not to take the knee, just as the police were.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

So you encourage your nieces and nephews to engage in thoughtless action?

I have children, grandchildren and great grandchildren and I would always encourage them to get of their backsides and do something if they felt strong enough about it.

I certainly wouldn't encourage them to read Chomsky. His anarcho-syndacalism theory belongs alongside unicorns, father christmas and merlin as a use for change.

I would tell them to read Zola instead.

[Badger 2,404]

40 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

If you don't give everyone equality of opportunity where is the justice in that? Inevitably there will be inequality of outcome because we all have different talents. We can ameliorate the consequences of that but to try & prevent it by handicapping people from the beginning is not I feel a good idea.

Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear - I think it it is better than we have now, an improvement, but not desirable as an end, unless rewards systems are changed, which are unlikely in the near future. Would I prefer it to what we have now - "Yes." Do I see it as the ultimate goal of human society, "No."

37 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

This seems to contradict what you said above.

 

 No, I didn't copy and paste all of the section that preceded it  - you asked me about justice and reward for effort - see below.

50 minutes ago, Badger said:

1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

2 hours ago, Badger said:

Whilst justice and reward for effort may be widely desired, I think that they are only attained by a minority in any hitherto existing system: most are under-rewarded, a few are over-rewarded

Again I agree, but is this aspiration wrong?

No - it is a laudable aspiration and the basis of a fair society.

 

51 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

But the assumption is that Black lives are being systematically targeted, which I don't think is true.

I'm not sure how you can argue this tbh. It is pretty clear that by most measures Black Lives are the targets for demise (as are the lives of the disabled, the poor etc). You can't surely argue that they have equality/ justice/ fairness or even equality of opportunity?

[Badger 2,404]

48 minutes ago, paul moy said:

Many players are now too scared not to take the knee, just as the police were.

Can you provide evidence for this? I'm guessing in advance that you can't 😄 - you don't normally.

[ron obvious 1,495]

24 minutes ago, Badger said:

Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear - I think it it is better than we have now, an improvement, but not desirable as an end, unless rewards systems are changed, which are unlikely in the near future. Would I prefer it to what we have now - "Yes." Do I see it as the ultimate goal of human society, "No."

 

 No, I didn't copy and paste all of the section that preceded it  - you asked me about justice and reward for effort - see below.

 

I'm not sure how you can argue this tbh. It is pretty clear that by most measures Black Lives are the targets for demise (as are the lives of the disabled, the poor etc). You can't surely argue that they have equality/ justice/ fairness or even equality of opportunity?

So what replaces equality of opportunity? How would I get to be striker for NCFC for example?

I don't believe Black Lives are the 'target' for demise, certainly not in this country.

[Badger 2,404]

2 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

I don't believe Black Lives are the 'target' for demise, certainly not in this country.

The facts say otherwise.

[ron obvious 1,495]

Just now, Badger said:

The facts say otherwise.

Those facts being ...

[Badger 2,404]

11 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

Those facts being ...

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/income-distribution/latest#by-ethnicity-after-housing-costs

I've tried several times to format this correctly without success. Hopefully you can see

You are more than twice as likely to be in the lowest quintile if you are Black or Pakistani than if you are White British. At the other end of the scale you are more than 2.5 times more likely to be in the top quintile if you are White British rather than Black and 5 times more likely than if you were Pakistani.

I think that this is pretty clear evidence that the system discriminates and targets Black and Pakistani for demise.

 

Percentage of households in each income quintile (after housing costs), by ethnicity
Ethnicity	Percentage of individuals in bottom income quintile (lowest income)	Percentage of individuals in second income quintile	Percentage of individuals in third income quintile	Percentage of individuals in fourth income quintile	Percentage of individuals in top income quintile (highest income)
	%	%	%	%	%
Asian	34	24	16	12	14
Bangladeshi	48	27	15	6	4
Chinese	32	17	17	12	22
Indian	22	18	19	17	24
Pakistani	43	33	15	6	4
Asian other	37	23	14	13	12
Black	39	23	17	12	8
Mixed	30	15	19	20	16
White	18	20	21	21	21
White British	17	20	21	21	21
White other	25	19	18	20	19
Other	39	19	13	14	14

[ron obvious 1,495]

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/income-distribution/latest#by-ethnicity-after-housing-costs

I've tried several times to format this correctly without success. Hopefully you can see

You are more than twice as likely to be in the lowest quintile if you are Black or Pakistani than if you are White British. At the other end of the scale you are more than 2.5 times more likely to be in the top quintile if you are White British rather than Black and 5 times more likely than if you were Pakistani.

I think that this is pretty clear evidence that the system discriminates and targets Black and Pakistani for demise.

 

Percentage of households in each income quintile (after housing costs), by ethnicity
Ethnicity	Percentage of individuals in bottom income quintile (lowest income)	Percentage of individuals in second income quintile	Percentage of individuals in third income quintile	Percentage of individuals in fourth income quintile	Percentage of individuals in top income quintile (highest income)
	%	%	%	%	%
Asian	34	24	16	12	14
Bangladeshi	48	27	15	6	4
Chinese	32	17	17	12	22
Indian	22	18	19	17	24
Pakistani	43	33	15	6	4
Asian other	37	23	14	13	12
Black	39	23	17	12	8
Mixed	30	15	19	20	16
White	18	20	21	21	21
White British	17	20	21	21	21
White other	25	19	18	20	19
Other	39	19	13	14	14

So that is proof that Black Lives are being 'targeted for demise'. I see.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

27 minutes ago, Badger said:

The facts say otherwise.

Badger, I'll repost my questions which you have not addressed below (for the third time).

Also, my book challenge to Horsefly above is open to you too. Read "Critical Theories" and I will read a book of your recommendation which shows how Woke identity politics and post modern critical theory will unite the working class and eradicate inequality and poverty. Deal?

[Mr.Carrow 376]

I thought the implication was pretty obvious in my post that I want Labour to return to a form of corbynism whilst distancing itself from Woke authoritarianism.

"They are already divided". Where is your evidence for that? Social attitudes surveys say the opposite, as does my own experience of over 20 years in a very mixed working class environment. I'd be interested to know your background?

Again, how does splitting working people into oppressor/victim classes based on immutable characteristics foster class solidarity? Please answer this time.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

1 hour ago, paul moy said:

Indeed, booing the actions but not booing the players.  Many players are now too scared not to take the knee, just as the police were.

 

😂😂

Absolutely ridiculous! So what you're saying is that when you boo an opposition defender who trips Pukki just as he was about to score or an oppostion striker who produces a blatant dive in the Norwich penalty area then you are booing their actions but you're not actually booing the players themselves - risible 🤣🤣

As for the player and police being scared, I wonder whether you are ever going to realise that simply making stuff up doesn't make it true, in fact it doesn't make it even vaguely plausible - whether you made it up yourself or whether the Daily Express made it up and you were stupid enough to believe them makes no difference, the end result is that you end uplooking totally ridiculous..................... again 😂😂

[Taylor324 36]

I still find it a little ironic that as a relatively new poster on this site and of mixed race I received nothing but insults from those who supposedly support taking the knee

So here is a serious question to those who are clearly virtue signalling for their own pompous, woke importance and have no idea about racism 

Other than yourselves, a few high profile sportsmen and TV presenters (Lewis Hamilton, Piers Morgan etc) and of course the elite behind BLM, who are actually benefiting from footballers taking the knee? If you think its the average BAME person you have been fooled 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

26 minutes ago, Taylor324 said:

I still find it a little ironic that as a relatively new poster on this site and of mixed race I received nothing but insults from those who supposedly support taking the knee

So here is a serious question to those who are clearly virtue signalling for their own pompous, woke importance and have no idea about racism 

Other than yourselves, a few high profile sportsmen and TV presenters (Lewis Hamilton, Piers Morgan etc) and of course the elite behind BLM, who are actually benefiting from footballers taking the knee? If you think its the average BAME person you have been fooled 

These people are classic condescending "white saviours". People of colour who speak out against Woke orthodoxy are called Uncle Toms, Oreos, coconuts etc. The president of the US stated that black folk who voted Trump "ain't black" (funnily enough Trump actually gained votes with POC...). As I've shown on this thread, they will not engage with books or media which doesn't confirm their bias. I actually was one of them until about 5 years ago when I (ahem!) woke up. I actually find their intellectual cowardice and complete lack of self-awareness funny, but their lack of humility is actually quite chilling.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Mr.Carrow

[Herman 9,693]

No, I think it is simply that people don't believe a word Taylor is saying.

[Taylor324 36]

6 minutes ago, Herman said:

No, I think it is simply that people don't believe a word Taylor is saying.

Please expand on your further insult and your assumption 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Taylor324

[Barbe bleu 809]

Anyway...

Looks like millwall players are moving away from taking the knee to standing arm in arm.   Thoughts? I floated it as a way out earlier 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

5 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

https://newsthump.com/2020/12/07/millwall-fans-explain-they-booed-blm-to-refute-engels-first-law-of-dialectical-materialism/

Millwall fans explain they booed BLM to refute Engel’s first law of dialectical materialism

 

That is utter genius 😂

[Herman 9,693]

17 minutes ago, Taylor324 said:

Please expand on your further insult and your assumption 

 

Well if you go back to the beginning of the thread where people were trying to explain things, were ignored, and then the same statements were made, made me feel a bit less trusting. Maybe I am just a cynical old ****.

[Taylor324 36]

3 minutes ago, Herman said:

Well if you go back to the beginning of the thread where people were trying to explain things, were ignored, and then the same statements were made, made me feel a bit less trusting. Maybe I am just a cynical old ****.

For purely holding a different view I was repeatedly insulted and had to wade through a sea of pomposity and arrogance but at least you have shown some honesty without insults this time Herman - I think you might be the first!

[paul moy 235]

2 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

😂😂

Absolutely ridiculous! So what you're saying is that when you boo an opposition defender who trips Pukki just as he was about to score or an oppostion striker who produces a blatant dive in the Norwich penalty area then you are booing their actions but you're not actually booing the players themselves - risible 🤣🤣

As for the player and police being scared, I wonder whether you are ever going to realise that simply making stuff up doesn't make it true, in fact it doesn't make it even vaguely plausible - whether you made it up yourself or whether the Daily Express made it up and you were stupid enough to believe them makes no difference, the end result is that you end uplooking totally ridiculous..................... again 😂😂

The police took the knee at a BLM demo and they said themselves that they feared there would be a riot if they did not.

Players are under peer pressure to conform. Any player not conforming to taking the knee would be targeted by media etc.

So do we continue with this BLM ritual for years ?  

Edited December 7, 2020 by paul moy

[Mr.Carrow 376]

5 minutes ago, paul moy said:

The police took the knee at a BLM demo and they said themselves that they feared there would be a riot if they did not.

Players are under peer pressure to conform. Any player not conforming to taking the knee would be targeted by media etc.

So do we continue with this BLM ritual for years ?  

It's the "Nobody wants to be the first one to stop clapping at the communist/fascist rally" phenomenon.