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Millwall fans boo thier own players taking the knee

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2 hours ago, chicken said:

Strange one. On the one hand you are saying don't confuse equality with material worth, the next you are saying inequality is a fact of life and those that complain of failure are generally those who haven't tried hard enough in life.

The two don't really go together.

Equality isn't just about wealth of any kind, it's about opportunity. Are the same journey's, the same route's available to all? Or equivalent routes? Does the colour of ones skin, the religion one follows, their gender, sexual orientation or the culture one is from have an impact on how much they can achieve?

Once upon a time there would have been a hard yes. My grandmother was born and raised in the East End of London. Some of the terminology she would use by today's standards would be considered racist. Interestingly though she'd also say that the migrants from the colonies of the Empire were "poor ****s" because they never had a "sodding chance". She knew that they were no different to her but had no hope of getting out of the same slums and awful conditions they lived in, where as she did. And she did.

That is what we are talking about here. Even within football. That opportunities can be more difficult for kids from families from impoverished families. I'm a great believer in that many people are born with strengths and weaknesses and some are better suited to certain contexts, such as sports like football, than others. In the same way that some are better at maths, or science. The question then becomes how to we expose those contexts to as many kids as possible as to identify their talents?

Private schools tend to have smaller classes ensuring that delivery of teaching is better quality and the teachers ability to monitor and identify talent is far easier. And at this point it is easy to see how inequality can be present from such a young age.

There may never be true equality, it may always be about constantly going back to the scales but surely it is never a bad thing to hope for, to work towards?

Football pitches are full of black players of from some of the poorest nations in the world so I struggle to see any equality there. Talent in sport usually seems to find a stage for no other reason than there is money to be made by agents and other such parasites.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, jaywick_canery said:

Norwich wouldn't boo if Vladamir Putin walked onto the pitch.

 

We are squeaky beyond words.

I'm guessing you weren't around at the time of the whole Chase Out thing. And I loved the booming rendition of 'On the Ball City' as the players were taking the knee yesterday.

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24 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

I’m pretty sure the players aren’t taking the knee to show solidarity with BLM protests, Teemu.

They're taking the knee to remind people that racism will not be tolerated - it’s really that simple. But somehow way too many people around the country seem to have forgotten this minor detail and made it all political, as so often happens these days.

 

99.9% don't need 'reminding' though and the 0.1% ignore such gestures.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I do wonder whether certain other ethnic minorities feel a bit left out of all this.

In Europe, for example, without a doubt the most maligned, marginalised and mistreated group is the Roma people.... who are warehoused in slums like this...

roma.jpg.e376fad1b828863182802c70eff259c5.jpg

We don't really have skid rows like America (which are primarily home to black Americans).

 

Hear what you’re saying, Teemu. That image very much reminds me of some of the pretty grim scenes I stumbled upon out in an area of Kyiv, Ukraine, when I was dating a girl out there. I think you could buy a Big Mac out there for the equivalent of 18p. A day ticket using the underground and trams around the city was just 14p. And that was only 18 months ago!

Edited by Alex Moss
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8 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I'm guessing you weren't around at the time of the whole Chase Out thing. And I loved the booming rendition of 'On the Ball City' as the players were taking the knee yesterday.

Me boo the great Robert Chase? I was always far too grateful for the wonderful years he gave me. Still am! 😁

 

 

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Just hoping to get some clarification here-the Millwall fans who booed aren't racist, they were protesting against an act that is linked to BLM, who they believe were responsible for, amongst other things, attacks on statues of Winston Churchill, who was a target because he was a racist. 

Have I got that right?

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2 minutes ago, jaywick_canery said:

99.9% don't need 'reminding' though and the 0.1% ignore such gestures.

 

 

That was what BringBackChippy said. Apparently he didn’t or doesn’t need reminding. Despite the fact he made some highly offensive racist comments on here not so long back, which did not go unnoticed by some of us.

I don’t know where you’ve plucked the 0.1% statistic out, but I’m pretty sure that isn’t quite the factual ratio - in fact, this thread already proves that unfortunately. 

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3 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Just remember that the whole notion of a meritocracy was coined by Sir Michael Young to describe a dystopian society. There's not a problem by selecting people merely on their merits. The problem is when it congeals into a society with no room for those who are at lower strata, often through little to no fault of their own.

It speaks volumes for political double-speak that a meritocracy nowadays is considered a laudable concept.

Yes, who the f wants an airline pilot to be competent.

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6 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

Stripping this back down to the bare bones of the matter...

I would like to know why this 15 second gesture prior to kick off actually apparently irritates or angers a small minority of people? I honestly can’t think of a single good reason why someone would feel like this other than for the very obvious answer. 

One poster has said he will shout ‘Get up!’ during the 15 second silence when he next attends Carrow Rd. If that happens, then I hope he is promptly removed from the ground and banned for life. We don’t need such small minded bigoted knuckle draggers offending BAME whilst shaming our club and giving NCFC supporters this intolerable reputation. 

The very obvious answer, which has already been discussed ad infinitum on the preceding 12 pages, is because  the symbolism of “taking a knee” is now inextricably linked with the BLM movement which is widely seen as being an extreme political organisation with highly questionable policies, not to mention the fact that its supporters deface war memorials and burn flags at the Cenotaph.  You can’t separate the laudable sentiment of getting rid of racism from the rest of the baggage that goes with BLM.  Pretending otherwise would be akin to someone with concerns about animal welfare supporting Hitler because he was a vegetarian.

Edited by Naturalcynic
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8 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

The very obvious answer, which has already been discussed ad infinitum on the preceding 12 pages, is because  the symbolism of “taking a knee” is now inextricably linked with the BLM movement which is widely seen as being an extreme political organisation with highly questionable policies, not to mention the fact that its supporters deface war memorials and burn flags at the Cenotaph.  You can’t separate the laudable sentiment of getting rid of racism from the rest of the baggage that goes with BLM.  Pretending otherwise would be akin to someone with concerns about animal welfare supporting Hitler because he was a vegetarian.

Absolute gibberish. The extreme right are desperate to devalue and politicise a very laudable sign of showing solidarity with black players.

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9 minutes ago, Pugin said:

Absolute gibberish. The extreme right are desperate to devalue and politicise a very laudable sign of showing solidarity with black players.

Not sure which part is “gibberish”, but if you say so then I’m sure you must be right.

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55 minutes ago, paul moy said:

KEEP POLITICS OUT OF FOOTBALL............ we have had six months of this .... that is enough

Totally agree, taking the knee is political gesture in support of a left wing organisation and only serves to  divide people

The last 13 pages have clearly proven that 

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13 hours ago, jaywick_canery said:

I reckon the majority are heartily sick of having our national game being used and manipulated by all and sundry to promote politically correct causes.

I don't think the majority are - most are anti-racism themselves.

What is wrong with promoting anti-racism?

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10 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Just remember that the whole notion of a meritocracy was coined by Sir Michael Young to describe a dystopian society. There's not a problem by selecting people merely on their merits. The problem is when it congeals into a society with no room for those who are at lower strata, often through little to no fault of their own.

It speaks volumes for political double-speak that a meritocracy nowadays is considered a laudable concept.

Exactly. Did you know that he was Toby Young's father?

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12 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

“Why the tories will be in power for at least another decade - the thread”

remember, they keep winning because of you, not because they are any good.

I think that it is a reasonable assumption that they will be in power for the next ten years. Leaving aside the "party political football" games, there is a reasonable argument to suggest that they have held power (if not office) since 1951.

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10 hours ago, ron obvious said:

So what is the solution?

The solution is allocation based on need, rather than equality of any kind. I don't think that I can take any action to achieve this, iis beyond individuals. Profound changes to the allocation of resources are the result of fundamental economic change which is beyond the influence of individuals.

All we can do in the meantime is to try to do what we believe is "the right thing," which in itself is a highly complex individual construct.

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18 minutes ago, Badger said:

Exactly. Did you know that he was Toby Young's father?

Certainly did. Toby Young's hilarious book "How To Lose Friends And Alienate People" was how I first became aware of it.

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11 hours ago, Taylor324 said:

I have spent time in some of the poorest places on earth, places of famine and hardship and believe me real poverty doesn't always result in crime, I have also spent time in some of the richest areas on earth where crime is rife 

Interesting in the light of your subsequent arguments.

Was it your experience that in these poorest places on earth that they had really strong police forces and that in the richest areas they had really weak police forces?

 

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22 minutes ago, Badger said:

I don't think the majority are - most are anti-racism themselves.

What is wrong with promoting anti-racism?

We all want to promote anti-racism.   BLM is promoting a political organisation and also the perverse belief that racism is only against Blacks. 

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Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Certainly did. Toby Young's hilarious book "How To Lose Friends And Alienate People" was how I first became aware of it.

I bought the book donkey's years ago because I loved the title so much, but tbh, never got round to reading it 😳

He did a documentary on Radio Four about this, which was interesting - probably available in the archives somewhere.

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Just now, Badger said:

I bought the book donkey's years ago because I loved the title so much, but tbh, never got round to reading it 😳

He did a documentary on Radio Four about this, which was interesting - probably available in the archives somewhere.

If you like slightly puerile humour, which I very much do, you'll love it. He does make some really interesting analysis on the notion of the American Dream at the same time and there's some interesting serious social commentary amongst the spirited shenanigans. I certainly found it an entertaining read.

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2 minutes ago, paul moy said:

We all want to promote anti-racism.   BLM is promoting a political organisation and also the perverse belief that racism is only against Blacks. 

1. What action would you recommend to support anti-racism then?

2. Here is the BLM website - illustrate what you allege - if you can.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/

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24 minutes ago, Badger said:

I don't think the majority are - most are anti-racism themselves.

What is wrong with promoting anti-racism?

Nothing whatever wrong with promoting anti-racism.  Football has done so very successfully through its own "Kick it out" campaign.  It''s when the anti-racism message and symbolism is inextricably linked with a far-left political organisation that seemingly condones desecrating memorials and burning flags at the Cenotaph that a lot of people find unacceptable.

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1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

If you like slightly puerile humour, which I very much do, you'll love it. He does make some really interesting analysis on the notion of the American Dream at the same time and there's some interesting serious social commentary amongst the spirited shenanigans. I certainly found it an entertaining read.

I'll have to see if I can find it up again - probably in the loft somewhere unless it fell victim to a clear out.

 

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2 minutes ago, Badger said:

1. What action would you recommend to support anti-racism then?

2. Here is the BLM website - illustrate what you allege - if you can.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/

You know as well as I do that over the last 6 months or so BLM has systematically sanitised its various media platforms to remove mention of its more "problematic" policies.

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1 minute ago, Naturalcynic said:

Nothing whatever wrong with promoting anti-racism.  Football has done so very successfully through its own "Kick it out" campaign.  It''s when the anti-racism message and symbolism is inextricably linked with a far-left political organisation that seemingly condones desecrating memorials and burning flags at the Cenotaph that a lot of people find unacceptable.

Are you going to tell Anton Ferdinand that?

Another key word there is "seemingly". I don't think many condone it at all. However it's the epitome of lousy logic to expect the disenfranchised to act by society's rules when society is perceived to be against them.

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3 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

It''s when the anti-racism message and symbolism is inextricably linked with a far-left political organisation

Explain to me in what way the anti-racism message of "Black Lives Matter" is far left; how is "taking the knee" far left? 

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4 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:
7 minutes ago, Badger said:

1. What action would you recommend to support anti-racism then?

2. Here is the BLM website - illustrate what you allege - if you can.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/

You know as well as I do that over the last 6 months or so BLM has systematically sanitised its various media platforms to remove mention of its more "problematic" policies.

So you mean that you can't and that you don't have any evidence?

But, of course, you believe it anyway because that is what you have been told to think... like the Millwalll fans?

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