Millwall fans boo thier own players taking the knee

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

2 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Performative acts of acquiescence in which you will be socially shamed and punished for not taking part are a classic in the authoritarian playbook. Have you read "the Power of the Powerless" by Vaclav Havel?

Seriously, what are you talking about. NOBODY is socially shaming anybody for not taking part. In the real world what ACTUALLY HAPPENED yesterday is that 22 footballers were socially shamed (by very loud and co-ordinated booing) for taking part!! 

[chicken 2,624]

5 minutes ago, Badger said:

Equality of opportunity would be a step forwards, but of course it is hugely discriminatory and as with a meritocracy would lead to wide a growing gaps within society. Ultimately it would be social darwinism.

That depends upon the methods and to what ends you pursue it.

However, one can start with things such as the tax system. And how large corporations are enabled to escape paying corporation tax, or how the very rich are able to avoid paying so much in tax. Though it is also a concern that for the last decade we have been told repeatedly it's a bloated public service, work dodging sick scammers etc. In reality, had the tax be collected as it should, things would be quite different. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

1 hour ago, jaywick_canery said:

What is not being understood is that the booing was for the 'act' not the 'cause'. I doubt any of us on here would have any truck with race hate however I reckon the majority are heartily sick of having our national game being used and manipulated by all and sundry to promote politically correct causes.

 

Sadly with our owners I fear we will still be doing when everybody has woken up to what is going on.

So how many of the 2,000 Norwich fans there yesterday booed then jaywick? I'll give you a clue - it was a round number. So all your nonsense about the so called 'majority' being sick of it is utter bo****ks isn't it? Oh and what about the 2,000 Chelsea fans and 2,000 Spurs fans who applauded taking the knee. No majority there was there? 

[The Real Buh 3,432]

if we can’t move the thread to off topic where it justifiably belongs can we re-name it?
 

“Why the tories will be in power for at least another decade - the thread”

remember, they keep winning because of you, not because they are any good.

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

14 minutes ago, Badger said:

Unfortunately the dispossessed, poor and powerless have to use any tools at their disposal if they want to change society - consciousness and awareness (or groupthink as you pejoratively put it) is one such means.  You have to make people aware of the problem before there is any chance of action being taken on it.

Collective action, often flawed has been the tool of the less powerful throughout the ages. When the levers of power are so heavily imbalanced, how do left-wing libertarians bring about positive change? Genuine question.

If you look at social attitudes surveys etc, things have been steadily improving in western democracies. I believe Corbyn was a consensus egalitarian who genuinely wanted to do something about inequality but I have serious doubts as to whether he would have been able to fend off Woke authoritarianism- it has a vicelike grip on the Left now. 

So essentially I'm an old style Leftie who believes that poverty lends a lie to meritocracy (another book recommendation: Poverty Safari) and is a scourge on western societies. Now, could you tell me how dividing ordinary people into oppressed/oppressor, victim/privileged, racist/anti-racist based on their immutable characteristics is going to unite people to come together and change things?

[Herman 9,748]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

I saw him wearing a poppy once so according to Herman he supports a nefarious right wing organisation, The Royal British Legion.

Why lie?

[The Real Buh 3,432]

Just now, Herman said:

Why lie?

It’s what you said

[Alex Moss 2,165]

47 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Not being racist = political correctness gone mad, amirite?

Y’know, it’s almost as if they can’t admit exactly what they are...

[Herman 9,748]

2 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

It’s what you said

No it isn't. You're free to disagree with anything I say but don't make up stuff.

[The Real Buh 3,432]

1 minute ago, Herman said:

No it isn't. You're free to disagree with anything I say but don't make up stuff.

You equated the Royal British legion to UKIP

its that stuff that means you’re ideology remains unelectable in this country. 

[Herman 9,748]

Yeah I'm just going to ignore you from now on mate. Can't be doing with liars.

[The Real Buh 3,432]

1 minute ago, Herman said:

Yeah I'm just going to ignore you from now on mate. Can't be doing with liars.

Forget me like you conveniently forget the quote button from time to time yeah?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

This is a bit of an odd one in that you inject class blame into it. Usually something that comes from the right wing in response to the left.

The left often talks about the working people and trying to represent them, hence the vast majority of trade unions being largely left wing in nature. They can therefore be guilty of blaming all of the countries woes on the higher/power/wealthy class.

In response the right wing know they can't blame the working class as they are typically seen to have the most numbers and you don't want to anger the largest demographic in case they turn out and vote against you in droves. So what do they do? Blame the middle class.

The thing is, in reality, when you look at voting turnout %'s, it's usually the more heavily working class areas that have the lower turnouts. Which kind of contradicts your middle class needs to get out there and take action. But then most of these types of view are easily deconstructed.

If you live on the estates you suggest, then you'll know there is strong political apathy. Votes are not felt to mean much, if they want change it is too difficult to enact. Overturning a several thousand vote lead from the last election can and does look insurmountable.

So the question really is, what can WE do about it? Because I suspect that despite a lot of comments from people on here, the vast majority aren't prepared to actually take any action. By that I mean protest, counter protest or stand up and suggest something or to support something that finds the middle ground. Because right now the UK has been divided and it is becoming dangerously entrenched. Both 'sides' of the political spectrum are guilty. If they can't get their act together and be reasonable then it is down to the rest of us to refuse to fall from the old school propaganda and tell them to do one. 

I certainly do blame the middle classes for much of the division. Many of them have a conscience for the actions of their ancestors not just in the UK but overseas.

The upper classes don't have a conscience and the working class can't afford one.

So now they will protest and sit around and form workshops and committees as long as is it doesn't amount to doing anything. Greenham Common wad a halfway house and sitting up trees was a mere token.

Civil disobedience, which Unions such as mine, the NGA or the NUM was at least an attempt, partly successful, in bringing about change. And the Poll Tax riots were successful. 

The attempt at blockades to protest fuel prices stopped short just as it was having an effect.

[Taylor324 36]

57 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Do you understand that crime is linked to poverty? Poorer people with less opportunities tend to commit more crime to feed themselves etc and also they are prayed on more by drug dealers etc. More people, especially younger people will see drug dealing as a way out of poverty etc. By funding these areas to improve education, health and also improve recreational facilities mean that areas become more prosperous and therefore crime reduces... What part of that do you not agree with? What's your big idea to improve the lives of poorer neighbourhoods in the UK and the US? Go fund n enlighten us...

I have spent time in some of the poorest places on earth, places of famine and hardship and believe me real poverty doesn't always result in crime, I have also spent time in some of the richest areas on earth where crime is rife 

Crime often becomes a culture and it's a difficult mindset to change once it's set in, there are no easy answers to be honest  but believing the answer is to abolish police units and replace them with youth clubs and music venues to beat crime, drugs and racial inequality sounds incredibly naive 

As I've mentioned before, I am of mixed race and I have experienced first hand racism but I don't understand how defunding or abolishing the police will make any improvements in any of these areas 

If supporting the idea of taking a knee at a football match for 15 seconds makes you feel better and you feel you are making a difference - then please carry on but in truth it makes no difference at all 

[Chelm Canary 404]

 

Poignant quote.

“Comrade, your statement is factually incorrect.”

“Yes, it is. But it is politically correct.”

[ron obvious 1,502]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

Equality of opportunity would be a step forwards, but of course it is hugely discriminatory and as with a meritocracy would lead to wide a growing gaps within society. Ultimately it would be social darwinism.

So equality of opportunity is wrong?

So there should be inequality of opportunity??

How would that work???

[The Real Buh 3,432]

1 minute ago, ron obvious said:

So equality of opportunity is wrong?

So there should be inequality of opportunity??

How would that work???

He wants equality of outcome

[ron obvious 1,502]

1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

He wants equality of outcome

Does that mean in his world I could play centre forward for Norwich? Pretty cool.

[Taylor324 36]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

if we can’t move the thread to off topic where it justifiably belongs can we re-name it?
 

“Why the tories will be in power for at least another decade - the thread”

remember, they keep winning because of you, not because they are any good.

 

Probably the truest post of the thread

[TheGunnShow 5,936]

1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

If you look at social attitudes surveys etc, things have been steadily improving in western democracies. I believe Corbyn was a consensus egalitarian who genuinely wanted to do something about inequality but I have serious doubts as to whether he would have been able to fend off Woke authoritarianism- it has a vicelike grip on the Left now. 

So essentially I'm an old style Leftie who believes that poverty lends a lie to meritocracy (another book recommendation: Poverty Safari) and is a scourge on western societies. Now, could you tell me how dividing ordinary people into oppressed/oppressor, victim/privileged, racist/anti-racist based on their immutable characteristics is going to unite people to come together and change things?

Just remember that the whole notion of a meritocracy was coined by Sir Michael Young to describe a dystopian society. There's not a problem by selecting people merely on their merits. The problem is when it congeals into a society with no room for those who are at lower strata, often through little to no fault of their own.

It speaks volumes for political double-speak that a meritocracy nowadays is considered a laudable concept.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Is there a timescale on how long players should keep taking the knee?

I mean, are they going to be doing it for the next 5 years?

They were to show solidarity with BLM protests, which have largely finished? 

 

[Badger 2,405]

1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

If you look at social attitudes surveys etc, things have been steadily improving in western democracies.

Really? Well how do you explain the election results then?

 

More importantly, you haven't answered my question about how do left-wing libertarians bring about positive change? It was a genuine question.

1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Now, could you tell me how dividing ordinary people into oppressed/oppressor, victim/privileged, racist/anti-racist

They are already divided - that is the point. Some are powerless, whilst other have power; some are starving or just about managing whilst others have more than they know what to do with. The solution has always been to unite the powerless to act collectively.

Because this is the only tool that the weak have, those in power do all they can to prevent it - whether through anti-TU legislation; unequal access to the law or through funding newspapers and websites etc to try to undermine the case for collective action through "theories"and slogans. They use their money and power to prevent people utilising the one tool in their armoury.

[Badger 2,405]

40 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

So equality of opportunity is wrong?

So there should be inequality of opportunity??

How would that work???

No, I said it would be a step forwards but it is not, I believe, a solution, but a small step in the right direction.

Asd to inequality of opportunity, that's what we have - you can see how it works.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

7 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Is there a timescale on how long players should keep taking the knee?

I mean, are they going to be doing it for the next 5 years?

They were to show solidarity with BLM protests, which have largely finished? 

 

I’m pretty sure the players aren’t taking the knee to show solidarity with BLM protests, Teemu.

They're taking the knee to remind people that racism will not be tolerated - it’s really that simple. But somehow way too many people around the country seem to have forgotten this minor detail and made it all political, as so often happens these days.

 

[ron obvious 1,502]

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

No, I said it would be a step forwards but it is not, I believe, a solution, but a small step in the right direction.

Asd to inequality of opportunity, that's what we have - you can see how it works.

So what is the solution?

[Mr.Carrow 376]

3 minutes ago, Badger said:

Really? Well how do you explain the election results then?

 

More importantly, you haven't answered my question about how do left-wing libertarians bring about positive change? It was a genuine question.

They are already divided - that is the point. Some are powerless, whilst other have power; some are starving or just about managing whilst others have more than they know what to do with. The solution has always been to unite the powerless to act collectively.

Because this is the only tool that the weak have, those in power do all they can to prevent it - whether through anti-TU legislation; unequal access to the law or through funding newspapers and websites etc to try to undermine the case for collective action through "theories"and slogans. They use their money and power to prevent people utilising the one tool in their armoury.

I thought the implication was pretty obvious in my post that I want Labour to return to a form of corbynism whilst distancing itself from Woke authoritarianism.

"They are already divided". Where is your evidence for that? Social attitudes surveys say the opposite, as does my own experience of over 20 years in a very mixed working class environment. I'd be interested to know your background?

Again, how does splitting working people into oppressor/victim classes based on immutable characteristics foster class solidarity? Please answer this time.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

By the way badger, I recommend looking at the US "Hidden Tribes" report to get a handle on where Wokeness came from. Clue: it wasn't the working classes.

[jaywick_canery 28]

2 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

So how many of the 2,000 Norwich fans there yesterday booed then jaywick? I'll give you a clue - it was a round number. So all your nonsense about the so called 'majority' being sick of it is utter bo****ks isn't it? Oh and what about the 2,000 Chelsea fans and 2,000 Spurs fans who applauded taking the knee. No majority there was there? 

Norwich wouldn't boo if Vladamir Putin walked onto the pitch.

 

We are squeaky beyond words.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

10 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

I’m pretty sure the players aren’t taking the knee to show solidarity with BLM protests, Teemu.

They're taking the knee to remind people that racism will not be tolerated - it’s really that simple. But somehow way too many people around the country seem to have forgotten this minor detail and made it all political, as so often happens these days.

I do wonder whether certain other ethnic minorities feel a bit left out of all this.

In Europe, for example, without a doubt the most maligned, marginalised and mistreated group is the Roma people.... who are warehoused in slums like this...

We don't really have skid rows like America (which are primarily home to black Americans).

 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

Stripping this back down to the bare bones of the matter...

I would like to know why this 15 second gesture prior to kick off actually apparently irritates or angers a small minority of people? I honestly can’t think of a single good reason why someone would feel like this other than for the very obvious answer. 

One poster has said he will shout ‘Get up!’ during the 15 second silence when he next attends Carrow Rd. If that happens, then I hope he is promptly removed from the ground and banned for life. We don’t need such small minded bigoted knuckle draggers offending BAME whilst shaming our club and giving NCFC supporters this intolerable reputation.