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We don't need your support

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If your''e not a City till I die type, a part time supporter who is critical of our current regime we don''t need your type of support.

Only die hards who are so short sighted they can''t see whats gouing on are welcomed as City supporters, the greatest supporters cannot be diluted by your sort.

Take your support and shove it, City will not miss your support and we don''t need it.

An unpalatable fact is that City need all the support it can get and will need it even more in the future, so get rid of Worthy now.

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[quote user="pete"]

If your''e not a City till I die type, a part time supporter who is critical of our current regime we don''t need your type of support.

Only die hards who are so short sighted they can''t see whats gouing on are welcomed as City supporters, the greatest supporters cannot be diluted by your sort.

Take your support and shove it, City will not miss your support and we don''t need it.

An unpalatable fact is that City need all the support it can get and will need it even more in the future, so get rid of Worthy now.

[/quote]

Good point. Too many on this board are of the opinion that if you are in two minds about whether to watch the dross being served up at Carrow Road then you are not wanted or needed.

I enjoy a good game of football and we haven''t seen too many of these this season. If things continue as they then, at some point in the future, I may choose not to renew my season ticket and become more of a casual supporter. This does not mean that I will go and support another team. I chose to support Norwich City and I will stick by my choice. True, I may not be a die-hard fan. But then there are an awful lot of supporters like me and without us attendances would drop like a stone. Where would the club be then?

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Very good post.  It sickens me that we have so many fans who stick their heads in the sand.  I have supported Norwich all my life and always will.  However, if I choose not to renew my season ticket, it doesn''t make me a "fair weather" fan or imply that my allegiance rests elsewhere.  These same fans would doubtless still have their heads in the sand as we plummet through the divisions and go to financial ruin.

If I am shelling out £500 for the season and am not happy with what I am paying for, despite my emotional attachment to the club I have the freedom of choice to withdraw that. A "die hard fan" with his head in the sand could arguably be more damaging to the club than a fan who is prepared to act with meaning and belief.  Anyone who doesn''t feel that our board are acting like ostriches must be daft or brain washed - only action will shake them out of their slumber and the only action that appears to stir them is that which affects them financially.  Its the way business goes.  If you are a major shareholder and see your investment weakening substantially, only then will you act to protect your investment.

Now folks, if we all sit quietly and put up with the current dire rubbish that we have to put up with each week, then the shareholders will be happy.  Why shouldn''t they be - their investment is sound as:-

1. we managed to convince 20,000 fans to part with their money in advance, on the premise that "our squad is even better than when we got promoted" and we did all we could to stay in the Premiership (not to mention the significant money that the Premiership brought with it).  Better still, they will probably do it all again for the next season!

2. we have managed to reduce our playing squad and wageroll (and therefore costs), whilst retaining our income from matches

3. we have even managed to get £7.5 million for one of our major assets - a tidy profit

On the flip side, the Manager is responsible for the football side BUT if he doesn''t get it right then it can AND SHOULD impact on the financial side.  I for one am all for giving the Manager time both in terms of the job overall and to learn from his mistakes.  However, Worthy has had more time and been allowed to make more mistakes than any other manager I can think of - worse still, he has also brought down the standard of entertainment in doing so.

In any walk of life, if the entertainment isn''t good enough, everyone has an option.  It doesn''t mean they don''t necessary like entertainment, it means that what they are seeing is not good enough.  Unless this board starts to see things hitting their investment i.e. financially, they will not act - we have two very stubborn parties (1) the Board, who will not act and (2) Worthy who will not walk.   Anyone on the "outside" i.e. the fans, can see that what we have had this season is not good enough and serious action needs to be taken NOW.

If for one (along with my son) will NOT be renewing my season ticket IF Worthy is still in charge for next year - I am even prepared to WAIT and pay more money to renew if I have to wait beyond the relevant deadline.  Does this strike you as someone who isn''t committed to NCFC?  It could be that I am even more passionate and committed than those who decide to pretend nothings wrong and "it will all be alright in the end!"

For those fans who are doing NOTHING and are simply happy to let things roll on whilst the "shareholders" continue to cash in and keep their heads in the sand, I suggest you re-evaluate what you are doing and the potential implications.  Don''t simply criticise and isolate those who genuinely feel the club is in crisis and action needs to be taken. A major change is needed on the playing front, starting with the man at the top.

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my_left_foot

Excellent input, please contribute some more!

 I agree wholeheartedly with the content of your post. I don''t see the same problems the club faced during the "Robber Chase" ''end of an error'' period ; but, I am certainly worried about the club''s future if the present situation isn''t addressed - ASAP! It''s like the blind leading the blind at the moment, I really wonder if the ''Board'' are entirely happy with the the current situation? I bet they are''nt! Personally, without wishing to sound negative, I really think that our season is virtually over - bar playing for survival, pride and a top10 finish. Even if we do bring in a few decent acquisitions before transfer deadline, by the time they''ve settled, the gap to the play-offs will be unreachable.

I love the club, and my life revolves around supporting it through the thick and thin but now I feel enough is enough!..... I am frustrated to the point as yourself, and will also will bide my time before committing myself to ''renew my pew''. I personally think that changes will be made in various positions within the club within the next few months, but you don''t wait until you run out of petrol, before you refill your tank!

I don''t dislike the manager, but 18 months have passed, and as for the performances that I''ve witnessed home and away? Well, even with a few half-decent results he''s ''obtained''.....managers'' have certainly been shown the door for an awful lot less! OTBC ;~)

   

  

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What a load of old dross - all too typical of the whingers and whiners whose infantile bleats fill this board with predictable regularity of a herd of goats suffering a terminal case of constipation

For the most the recipe seems to be that you start with a lie, add a healthy dollop of misinformation and stir daily with the kind of petulance that you would associate with an over tired infant.

Anyone who points out the lies, attempts to correct the twisted and, all too often, invented stories are branded ''Keep the Faither''s''. A simple title from simple folk it would appear. A simple response that also appears to negate any responsibility to qualify the lies and distortions.

If pushed they will hide behind some spurious claim of it being their opinion so they have a right to express it and do not have to have any evidence to back it up. In fact all to often it is spouted in the face of evidence to the contrary.

So the kids are going to take their toys away. " Boo hoo, it ain''t fair no more " Well close the door on the way out.

Those of us who have been here before expect no better of the club or the whingers. Every club has it''s peaks and troughs.

So where are we ? Possibly in the strongest financial position the club has been in. Possibly, barring the original building of Carrow Road, the strongest position in relation to both fixed assets and off field income.

So why are we not heading back to the Premiership as most expected last August. Why are we like most of the club''s relegated from the Premiership finding ourselves battling to find our feet ? Why should we be a special case and not like those other clubs ?

I don''t suppose any of us can say exactly. We can speculate but that''s about all we can do. The club will change managers as and when they see fit - not as a result of some fabricated tosh from a bunch of rural malcontents.

Supporting through thick and thin is not blinding yourself to what''s going on, but it is at least about being honest. Not filling this board with endless lies and conjecture. Not looking for every unfounded rumour to twist and throw at the club because it is not living up their own particular fantasies.

It''s not about keeping the faith more a point of keeping your head. Sadly though, I have to wonder if some of our fans have anything inside their head that would make it worth their while to keeping it.

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every club has its peaks and troughs... back to the happy with mediocraty bunch.

the best way to get what you want is direct action ie if you aint happy with the product you dont buy it

um we are struggl;ing top find our feet becaus worthy has recked the squad and failed to build. all that premiership money wasted... great

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Well put MLF (no relation) - like a true friend a true supporter is one who will tell those uncomfortable truths that cause pain, may threaten the relationship but are prepared to take that risk for the well being of that friend, and not just do nothing and watch that person cause themselves preventable hardship.

A good critical friend is worth their weight in gold.

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[quote user="MadDan"]What a load of old dross - all too typical of the whingers and whiners whose infantile bleats fill this board with predictable regularity of a herd of goats suffering a terminal case of constipation For the most the recipe seems to be that you start with a lie, add a healthy dollop of misinformation and stir daily with the kind of petulance that you would associate with an over tired infant. Anyone who points out the lies, attempts to correct the twisted and, all too often, invented stories are branded ''Keep the Faither''s''. A simple title from simple folk it would appear. A simple response that also appears to negate any responsibility to qualify the lies and distortions. If pushed they will hide behind some spurious claim of it being their opinion so they have a right to express it and do not have to have any evidence to back it up. In fact all to often it is spouted in the face of evidence to the contrary. So the kids are going to take their toys away. " Boo hoo, it ain''t fair no more " Well close the door on the way out. Those of us who have been here before expect no better of the club or the whingers. Every club has it''s peaks and troughs. So where are we ? Possibly in the strongest financial position the club has been in. Possibly, barring the original building of Carrow Road, the strongest position in relation to both fixed assets and off field income. So why are we not heading back to the Premiership as most expected last August. Why are we like most of the club''s relegated from the Premiership finding ourselves battling to find our feet ? Why should we be a special case and not like those other clubs ? I don''t suppose any of us can say exactly. We can speculate but that''s about all we can do. The club will change managers as and when they see fit - not as a result of some fabricated tosh from a bunch of rural malcontents. Supporting through thick and thin is not blinding yourself to what''s going on, but it is at least about being honest. Not filling this board with endless lies and conjecture. Not looking for every unfounded rumour to twist and throw at the club because it is not living up their own particular fantasies. It''s not about keeping the faith more a point of keeping your head. Sadly though, I have to wonder if some of our fans have anything inside their head that would make it worth their while to keeping it.[/quote]

 

In what sense ''strongest finacial position''? Still having to take loans from the majority shareholder does not seem that strong to me.

 

I would agree that Norwich supporters have jumped to be maoners beofre needed, but with what has happened in the last 18 months, maybe they have a point. In any sense of the word, Nigel has not been successful, and looks like not being again in the near furure. Several City managers have been sacked for doing better than this, Ken Brown case in point.

 

Failure to gain promotion in either this or next year when we have parachute payments will be a financial disaster, and any number of hotels won''t cover the holes in the balance sheet.

 

Most shareholders choose to give their dividends back to the club to raise money, and the ''A'' preference shareholders get no dividend at all; and if like me saw it as an extra injection of cash into the club, with no financial rewards expected.

 

I have to say that this tread is not the usual whinging and whineing, but thought out and reasoned arguments.

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I take offence to your comments about infantile bleats and would direct you to the quote "we are all entitled to our opinion and my opinion is no more or less valued than yours conversely your opinion is no more or less valued than mine".

Because you do not agree with someone elses comments does not brand them a whiger whiner or infantile. Many of the comments refer to the standard of football witnessed at home and away both this season and last at best it has been average and if truthful most of it poor.

Lets consider facts I took my wife and two grandchildren to see the film King Kong three hours entertaiment, free parking, in the warmth and it lasted for three hours total cost £20 .50. I took myself off to watch Norwich v West Ham, park one mile from the ground,sat in the cold lasted slightly longer than ninety minutes entertainment value minimal, effort from Norwich minimal cost £24.

Football is (or should be) entertainment unfortunately this has not been the case and is the reason for so much dissatisfaction but it does not lessen the support or enthusiasm of many on this board. If you do not agree with what someone has said use constructive critiscm not abuse to counter their views. 

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Well MadDan, you certainly live up to your name!

Why are we not heading back to the Premiership etc?  I agree, we can all speculate and we will all have our opinions on this.  My post didn''t doubt that we are in a much stronger financial position and I have no problem with being in the Championship at all.  Every club does have its peaks and troughs, but it just seems that this particular "trough" is a large one with little sign of an end.

The point of my post (if read and taken in) was the direction we are taking under the current manager and the deteriorating "quality" of football in the last 12 months.  Is this not honest?  Is it really a lie or conjecture? Perhaps the majority of fans out there are more than happy with what they are seeing week in and week out and can see a "peak" appearing from the "trough" that we are now in? 

I don''t like what I am seeing and I don''t like the direction our "football" is heading under Worthy, particularly given the extended time he has had to pick things up and that he has had plenty of opportunity to learn from his mistakes, but simply made the same mistakes again.  Fabricated tosh indeed?  What does everyone else think?

As said before, we all have a choice in life.  I will continue to support NCFC through thick and thin, but also believe it is reasonable for me to question continued support for a man (Worthy) who has clearly lost the plot, has contributed substantially to us entering  this "trough" and appears to have nothing to offer other than to "dig" us in to the "trough" still deeper.  I believe you will find many who agree and who increasingly will not be prepared to simply sit back and be quiet. 

There are many ways to display both frustration and to show dissatisfaction including through this message board. If, like me, others decide to "vote with their feet" unless a change is brought about, they should not be ridiculed, isolated or charged with "having nothing inside their heads".  Those who are prepared to simply turn up week in week out regardless and never "bat an eyelid" may well "not have anything inside their heads."

For now, I will leave the ranting and raging to you.  Prudence with ambition - fabricated tosh indeed!  

 

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it boils down to

how much do we trust worthy and the board.  if you trust them, you

allow them to quietly go about their jobs and at the end of the season,

if through their own judgement things haven''t gone to plan, they do the

honourable thing and fall on their swords, then everybody mourns the

passing and welcomes in the new.  after worthy''s pre-season ''no

excuses'' proclamation, i trust him to judge him performance this season

and come to a fair conclusion, under no pressure from anyone apart from himself - he deserves that much.When

you lose trust, you either begin to question and scrutinise everything

they do and if necessary ask them to explain themselves and provide

answers of your own OR you walk away and leave them to it.There''s

no doubt nigel and the board have a great relationship and have enjoyed

a wonderful adventure thus far, together with the fans lets be honest,

but the only criteria that matters in any matter is this, ''is this

course of action in the best interests of NCFC.''  Sure, its a business,

but its always more than that - its the spirit.  its the spirit of the

club thats plays a large part in attracting the highest champ gates and

full houses.  to risk splitting the fans from the board and breaking

this spirit cannot be in the best interests of the club, and for sure

the board need to get the fans back onside pronto, especially as season

tickets are due for renewal,and potentially 4-5000 wouldn''t bother to

renew in my opinion.  i could be wrong, you can bet the club conducts fan

surveys and probably even consults a focus group for the latest trends.

the atmosphere at the watford game was dire - there''s no pretending

otherwise, people aren''t happy. the spirit that delia and co have

carefully nutured over the years is in casualty. i fully

expect a trio of quality signings to be unveiled by the end of the window

or next week and delia and worthy will not disappoint in this regard,

because surely they can''t afford to.  excitement needs to be generated amongst

the fans and spirits need to be uplifted.  its getting to crunch time

for many and in the best interests of NCFC delia should want to avoid

that.

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"we are all entitled to our opinion and my opinion is no more or less valued than yours conversely your opinion is no more or less valued than mine".

That''s tosh and well you know it. The right to express an opinion might have well some entitlement but it doesn''t follow that the content has some value simply because it is expressed.

Firstly football is not entertainment it is a sport. It might be entertaining and then it might not. The entertainment value is all too often contained within the anticipation and after effect. Very few other ''entertainments'' have so much build up and follow up. Unfortunately in order to market a sport as entertainment so much of what made it attractive in the first place has ben removed. No terraces, no swearing, no banners, no banter with away fans and no drinking. Much of that had problems but they were great outlets for when the game was being played simply a sport.

Playing silly tunes, singing On the Ball City and having dressed up charactors wAndering around the pitch will not replace the real charactors, the real songs and the real singing. Without them all we are left with is - the game itself. All to often pretty boring, all too often not that exciting. Much as it was against Sunderland at Wembley in ''85. We won then so there was little or no griping.

We are not winning now so there is much griping. Fair enough, but at least lets have the griping based on fact not endless lies and libels.

Football has sucked in an awful lot of people who expect a constant level of delivery. It cannot be done. Again a great misfortune is that there are now numerous attempts to destroy the game by those whose only interested in sating this expectation. That sort of expectation that can be delivered by films, television and pop concerts but not by something with so many variables as football.

It has led to the frustration and anger that is being expressed by some season ticket holders. An anger and frustration ably potrayed by Homer Simpson

when he thumped the TV in rage demanding that it ''be funny''.

Is there some simply solution that can be wrought by sacking the manager ? Is the answer that we have a board of directors and management team conspiring to deny us our dues rewards of delivery - entertainment and success ? No.

But those accusations make for an easier answer than the acceptance that football is not some form of entertainment that can be turned on as quickly as you change channels with the remote control.

So how does football respond. Introducing more of the stuff like having a new ball thrown back at every possible moment. A stupid, stupid idea that has led to a rushed game and far more injuries to players. Try checking the injuries over the past few seasons with those of the 1971/72 championship winning team. This with better equipment, better diets, better pitches and far better medical attention.

Presently we have Worthington as the manager. There will definitely be targets and achievements in place to decide whether he stays as manager. They will not be set by fans acting like headless chickens, claiming that we are doomed, the end is nigh etc.

The guff about the parachute payments is no more than a symptom of the empty headed think of some of our fans. Try checking how many of the contracts are up in June 2007. The squad that will be there will reflect our income at that time.

I want that income to be a Premiership income. I''m sure the vast majority of fans who post on here, who are City fans, do as well.

The difference is that I and many others are not prepared to sit back and see the club repeatedly attacked by smears, lies and false accusations.

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"we are all entitled to our opinion and my opinion is no more or less valued than yours conversely your opinion is no more or less valued than mine".
That''s tosh and well you know it. The right to express an opinion might have well some entitlement but it doesn''t follow that the content has some value simply because it is expressed

Who is this person MadDan?  What gives you the right to view anothers opinion as wrong?  If a person makes a statement based on untruths or hear-say then you have the right to say ''Tosh''.  I personally feel that Worthington has lost the plot, but does this make me wrong?  You obviously feel that the knockers are wrong and should back the club all the way, but why are they wrong?  I want the club to succeed at the highest level, I want the club to be financially stable, I want the best players.  But I feel that under Worthington this will not happen.  Am I wrong too?

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[quote user="derwent"]

"we are all entitled to our opinion and my opinion is no more or less valued than yours conversely your opinion is no more or less valued than mine".
That''s tosh and well you know it. The right to express an opinion might have well some entitlement but it doesn''t follow that the content has some value simply because it is expressed

Who is this person MadDan?  What gives you the right to view anothers opinion as wrong?  If a person makes a statement based on untruths or hear-say then you have the right to say ''Tosh''.  I personally feel that Worthington has lost the plot, but does this make me wrong?  You obviously feel that the knockers are wrong and should back the club all the way, but why are they wrong?  I want the club to succeed at the highest level, I want the club to be financially stable, I want the best players.  But I feel that under Worthington this will not happen.  Am I wrong too?

[/quote]

All in all football is about results, and i feel norwich could acheive far better results with a different manager at the helm.

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[quote user="derwent"]

"we are all entitled to our opinion and my opinion is no more or less valued than yours conversely your opinion is no more or less valued than mine".
That''s tosh and well you know it. The right to express an opinion might have well some entitlement but it doesn''t follow that the content has some value simply because it is expressed

Who is this person MadDan?  What gives you the right to view anothers opinion as wrong?  If a person makes a statement based on untruths or hear-say then you have the right to say ''Tosh''.  I personally feel that Worthington has lost the plot, but does this make me wrong?  You obviously feel that the knockers are wrong and should back the club all the way, but why are they wrong?  I want the club to succeed at the highest level, I want the club to be financially stable, I want the best players.  But I feel that under Worthington this will not happen.  Am I wrong too?

[/quote]

All in all football is about results, and i feel norwich could acheive far better results with a different manager at the helm.

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[quote user="MadDan"] Firstly football is not entertainment it is a sport.[/quote]

And what is the purpose of sport, if not to entertain those that participate and those that spectate?

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mad dan, keep it real - the fact is there discontent at carra rd amongst the fans.  the atmosphere against watford was dire, lifeless and souless - we''ve lost 3 home games in a row - worst for 12 years.  I agree, some go over the top in expressing their discontent, but their unhappiness isn''t imagined.  as a result, your considerable efforts to convince otherwise fail to strike a chord. lets all hope some quality signings make their way to colney by end of tuesday to give the fans something to get excited about.

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Quite a confrontational style, mad dan, but you speak the truth.I am always disappointed by the posters whose relationship with the club seems to be primarily one of customer rather than supporter. If you demand predictable entertainment in return for  your money then buy the Friends Series 1 DVD box set.History tells us that the vast minority of relegated premiership clubs get promoted at the first attempt. Why then is promotion the minimum acceptable outcome of so many on this board? And as for "attractive football", can people not remember the first halves of our promotion season when the team were so often AWOL, but usually managed to grind out a result in the second, occasionally playing attractive football but often not. It is our ability to grind out results that has wavered this season, in common with the many relegated teams.I don''t have my head in the sand but some will claim I have low expectations. Low compared to theirs, definitely. But compared to the history of clubs like ours in our situation, I think they''re pretty realistic.

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" And what is the purpose of sport, if not to entertain those that participate and those that spectate? "

Depends on how you determine entertain. Fishing is one of the biggest sports in the country participation wise. Why should it be vamped up to provide entertainment ?

Sport is an arranged form of physical activity usually carried out as a challenge. Being entertaining is not it''s reason for being.

As to the opinion question I stand by what I say. Opinions ARE NOT valid simply because they are expressed. Otherwise Adolf Hitler''s views words be valid and above any challenge.

Claiming that I dismissed someone''s views about Worthington is again wrong. Point out where I have and

we can discuss that.

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[quote user="ncfc0405"]Quite a confrontational style, mad dan, but you speak the truth.

I am always disappointed by the posters whose relationship with the club seems to be primarily one of customer rather than supporter. If you demand predictable entertainment in return for  your money then buy the Friends Series 1 DVD box set.

History tells us that the vast minority of relegated premiership clubs get promoted at the first attempt. Why then is promotion the minimum acceptable outcome of so many on this board? And as for "attractive football", can people not remember the first halves of our promotion season when the team were so often AWOL, but usually managed to grind out a result in the second, occasionally playing attractive football but often not. It is our ability to grind out results that has wavered this season, in common with the many relegated teams.

I don''t have my head in the sand but some will claim I have low expectations. Low compared to theirs, definitely. But compared to the history of clubs like ours in our situation, I think they''re pretty realistic.
[/quote]

Most relegated clubs do badly because they have to SELL all their good players!!!West Ham sold 27 million of talent when they got relegated, Southampton have sold 30 million of players now walcott has gone, leicester changed most of their team..  with better decision makeing we could have done a west brom and got promoted again or at least be in palaces position.

I thought the reason we were doing so badly was because the promotion team had been broken apart, we have no balance, and no right wing, poor tactics, poor defending, general mis management, and incredibly poor signings, but then what do I no??  well i do no Dean Ashton wanted out, and his initial comments for west hams seem to give the impression he wasnt too happy here either...

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MadDan wrote: "That''s tosh and well you know it. The right to express an opinion might have well some entitlement but it doesn''t follow that the content has some value simply because it is expressed."

I''m glad we agree on that point MadDan because that succinctly describes the conclusion one reaches at the end of your lengthy input.

Your verbage wanders as if in a maze with no sense of direction, but vaguely pleased if you arrive at a point that seems familiar. To get out of your maze you would be far better off to cut the bushes down by a couple of feet and ask the question, "How does one define the difference between good and bad football, and what brand do far too many fans feel Norwich City are serving up this season?" Surely this is a more relevant question than meandering between the red herring of whether football is a sport or entertainment, as if that has any meaning.

When most people go to watch amateurs play football at the local park they expect a fair amount of hoofing of the ball. However, when they  see an amateur player make a good pass, or move into a space to receive a pass, or make a strong but fair tackle, people appreciate and applaud such effort. With well-paid professional players, at the level of Norwich City, one can expect them to demonstrate these skills with reasonable proficiency at each outing. In case you''re wondering, "reasonable" means it''s happening some of the time during the game so that fans feel encouraged to applaud. I remember listening to the Watford game and as the first half was coming to a "hoofing" close, Roy Waller asked Neil Adams how he would summarize the first half. Neil''s answer was one word; "Rubbish!" And this from home fan commentators.

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Can I just say..Left Foot and Mad Dan: two well written persuasive and cohesive arguements giving opposing views to a situation.

Message boards do not get any better than this...well done to you both for quality arguements which each carried it''s own validity.

On the points argued it is up to us all to make our own decisions, but those decisions are helped by comprehensive submissions such as these.

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