pearsos 56 Posted November 25, 2020 Do you think that the loosening of “rules” over the 5 days of Xmas should go ahead considering what it could do in terms of new COVID cases and the likelihood of another ‘lockdown’ in January? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,491 Posted November 25, 2020 Reading the views of scientists this morning then it appears to be a big risk. Certainly, something we will have to decide in our personal lives with a grandmother in her late eighties. I think there has been an attempt to appeal to families (as well as the wealthy with messages about holidays). Plus, maybe it was felt that they ought to provide some kind of guidance because it would be ignored completely otherwise? I don't believe they could have postponed Christmas until March when vaccination hopefully will be well underway but that was one thought I had (thinking a 3 months wait for a family get together is worth it in a one in a hundred year pandemic). Difficult personal decisions for everyone I think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 7,578 Posted November 25, 2020 I think its tough. From a pure 'head' standpoint I don't think it makes sense. From the heart though, my mother lives on her own in relative isolation and due to lockdowns has hardly been able to see my brother and his kids. I know Christmas and seeing her family will absolutely mean the world to her and if that is taken away she'll be devastated and we'll be worrying about how she'll cope. So while it is easy to say Christmas is just another day, it clearly means more to quite a few people and the toll of having to spend it alone or without family will be huge on the mental health of some. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,679 Posted November 25, 2020 I think it is irresponsible that people cannot accept that they might have to accept a different Christmas this year. I liked the joke this morning. Two doctors talking and one asked the other "How do you think we are managing Covid?" . And the other said "I don't know, I'm not a journalist". 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,679 Posted November 25, 2020 1 minute ago, king canary said: I think its tough. From a pure 'head' standpoint I don't think it makes sense. From the heart though, my mother lives on her own in relative isolation and due to lockdowns has hardly been able to see my brother and his kids. I know Christmas and seeing her family will absolutely mean the world to her and if that is taken away she'll be devastated and we'll be worrying about how she'll cope. So while it is easy to say Christmas is just another day, it clearly means more to quite a few people and the toll of having to spend it alone or without family will be huge on the mental health of some. Of course your Mum should be able to spend it with your Brother. That isn't the sticking point. Its how much rope do people want? I just think the experts are fearing those that will take advantage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 7,578 Posted November 25, 2020 1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said: Of course your Mum should be able to spend it with your Brother. That isn't the sticking point. Its how much rope do people want? I just think the experts are fearing those that will take advantage. My brother lives in an area that was under higher restrictions pre lockdown 2 so the point is without a little bit of loosening she wouldn't be able to. I do understand though that the issue is people will take the ****. This pandemic has shown once and for all that the idea of the British public being able to use their 'common sense' is a bunch of nonsense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,679 Posted November 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, king canary said: My brother lives in an area that was under higher restrictions pre lockdown 2 so the point is without a little bit of loosening she wouldn't be able to. I do understand though that the issue is people will take the ****. This pandemic has shown once and for all that the idea of the British public being able to use their 'common sense' is a bunch of nonsense. Well I hope they manage to sort it our for your Mum. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,491 Posted November 25, 2020 I think my area will be placed straight into tier 3 on the 2nd. It's a tough decision ahead (wife not seen her elderly mother since July). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Well b back 3,190 Posted November 25, 2020 Going by reports this morning the vaccinations will begin next week, mass vaccinations mid December. Once you have your first jab you will be pretty much immune after 4 weeks, so most vulnerable people will be sorted end of Jan beginning of Feb. A week ago this may have made sense, now it seems daft. We are weeks away from defeating the enemy. It is like Germany surrending in the First World War from the 1st December, but the allies deciding to go over the trenches today to finish them off, losing thousands in a war already won. Surely the mental health of people is served better at this moment in time by telling people 4 to 6 more weeks and the loneliness is over, than giving them COVID. How would your own mental health deal with you being the person that passed COVID to your mother or father that killed them. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Well b back 3,190 Posted November 25, 2020 16 minutes ago, sonyc said: I think my area will be placed straight into tier 3 on the 2nd. It's a tough decision ahead (wife not seen her elderly mother since July). We are the same as you are aware SONYC. The change in the rules for Christmas has our 16 year old telling us it’s safe. It’s the message and how it has been sent again. COVID won’t have a 5 day break over Christmas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,181 Posted November 25, 2020 Anyone know if I can be counted as part of my sister's household when I arrive from abroad, or am a household of my own? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,491 Posted November 25, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Well b back said: Going by reports this morning the vaccinations will begin next week, mass vaccinations mid December. Once you have your first jab you will be pretty much immune after 4 weeks, so most vulnerable people will be sorted end of Jan beginning of Feb. A week ago this may have made sense, now it seems daft. We are weeks away from defeating the enemy. It is like Germany surrending in the First World War from the 1st December, but the allies deciding to go over the trenches today to finish them off, losing thousands in a war already won. Surely the mental health of people is served better at this moment in time by telling people 4 to 6 more weeks and the loneliness is over, than giving them COVID. How would your own mental health deal with you being the person that passed COVID to your mother or father that killed them. I think that's a good analogy. So close to a solution that it seems just about in sight. As mentioned it's going to be a difficult decision and one only each of us can probably make (despite any government messaging). Edited November 25, 2020 by sonyc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill 1,788 Posted November 25, 2020 As far as the economy goes, Xmas has to go ahead. The whole supply chain, especially food, is geared towards goods being consumed. There is no storage for meat, poultry etc that could cope. As to health some still seem stuck with the myth of stopping the virus spreading. It is not that. It is about stopping any increase in the need for hospital beds. If people die the consequences are obvious, but they do not cause pressure in the NHS. That is what is at stake - as blunt and brutal as that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CANARYKING 634 Posted November 25, 2020 4 hours ago, Well b back said: Going by reports this morning the vaccinations will begin next week, mass vaccinations mid December. Once you have your first jab you will be pretty much immune after 4 weeks, so most vulnerable people will be sorted end of Jan beginning of Feb. A week ago this may have made sense, now it seems daft. We are weeks away from defeating the enemy. It is like Germany surrending in the First World War from the 1st December, but the allies deciding to go over the trenches today to finish them off, losing thousands in a war already won. Surely the mental health of people is served better at this moment in time by telling people 4 to 6 more weeks and the loneliness is over, than giving them COVID. How would your own mental health deal with you being the person that passed COVID to your mother or father that killed them. Your comparison with WW1 is correct, I’ve read somewhere there was an American General who fancied a bit of glory and sent his troops over the top at 10 am on November 11th 1918 causing hundreds of needless deaths, if I remember correctly it was near a canal in Belgium 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Well b back 3,190 Posted November 25, 2020 15 minutes ago, CANARYKING said: Your comparison with WW1 is correct, I’ve read somewhere there was an American General who fancied a bit of glory and sent his troops over the top at 10 am on November 11th 1918 causing hundreds of needless deaths, if I remember correctly it was near a canal in Belgium I may have misread this but Sturgeon seems to be saying don’t do it, but we had to do something as some were going to break the rules. Scotland First Minister Nicola Sturgeon says that although a UK-wide deal has been done to lift Covid-19 restrictions at Christmas she is still urging people to stay at home. Speaking at her daily briefing, she said that staying at home should be the "default" position but the easing of restrictions to allow households to gather over Christmas is a "recognition of a reality that exists over the Christmas period, whether I like it or not". She added that three households meeting during a five-day period over Christmas should be viewed as the "outer limit" of what is permitted. "If you can get through this Christmas staying in your own home, within your own household, please do so," she said. Guidance about the festive period - due to be issued on Thursday - is still being finalised but Sturgeon said the Scottish government would not be "encouraging" people to meet up. "The expectation should be that the guidance will probably look to tighten around the edges rather than further expand and that will be true with the travel window of opportunity as well - we want to limit that window, not expand it." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,325 Posted November 25, 2020 The government should never, ever again claim to be following the science as they have clearly abandoned that strategy, if they were ever following it in the first place. Its a bit patronising to be told we will let you meet up with whomever, even if they are travelling from high infection areas, because of Christmas but we will put you back into lockdown later. and the government encouraging people to risk infecting their parents when a vaccine is days away is just irresponsible. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herman 9,713 Posted November 25, 2020 Blimey Rocky, I completely agree. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill 1,788 Posted November 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said: The government should never, ever again claim to be following the science as they have clearly abandoned that strategy, if they were ever following it in the first place. Its a bit patronising to be told we will let you meet up with whomever, even if they are travelling from high infection areas, because of Christmas but we will put you back into lockdown later. and the government encouraging people to risk infecting their parents when a vaccine is days away is just irresponsible. oh dear it is business v human life the irony being you are someone who has always bleated in favour if the former over the latter and the government knows that a huge number will be meeting up, whatever the rules so better to be seen allowing it than having their authority challenged Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,325 Posted November 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Bill said: oh dear it is business v human life the irony being you are someone who has always bleated in favour if the former over the latter and the government knows that a huge number will be meeting up, whatever the rules so better to be seen allowing it than having their authority challenged It is. And I am against blanket lockdowns. The point I'm making is that if you have a policy then you should stick to it and not say we will suspend the policy just because it is Christmas. There's no rationality in that argument, and if you do it then you might as well have no policy at all. People will meet up despite the regulations, the way to deal with that is to warn people that they are putting vulnerable elderly people - their own parents and grandparents - at risk if they meet up, so it should be their decision if they wish to kill their own kin. Or wait a couple of extra weeks until the vulnerable have been vaccinated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted November 25, 2020 (edited) “The government should never, ever again claim to be following the science as they have clearly abandoned that strategy, if they were ever following it in the first place. Its a bit patronising to be told we will let you meet up with whomever, even if they are travelling from high infection areas, because of Christmas but we will put you back into lockdown later. and the government encouraging people to risk infecting their parents when a vaccine is days away is just irresponsible.” Absolutely agree RTB. Sadly Bill is one of the idiots that was trying to persuade people not to wear face masks from a very early stage in all this. Edited November 25, 2020 by Van wink Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,491 Posted November 25, 2020 27 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said: The government should never, ever again claim to be following the science as they have clearly abandoned that strategy, if they were ever following it in the first place. Its a bit patronising to be told we will let you meet up with whomever, even if they are travelling from high infection areas, because of Christmas but we will put you back into lockdown later. and the government encouraging people to risk infecting their parents when a vaccine is days away is just irresponsible. Always a first time ....I agree too Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Well b back 3,190 Posted November 25, 2020 9 minutes ago, sonyc said: Always a first time ....I agree too Ditto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,181 Posted November 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said: The government should never, ever again claim to be following the science as they have clearly abandoned that strategy, if they were ever following it in the first place. Its a bit patronising to be told we will let you meet up with whomever, even if they are travelling from high infection areas, because of Christmas but we will put you back into lockdown later. and the government encouraging people to risk infecting their parents when a vaccine is days away is just irresponsible. My intention was, and still is, to see my family at Christmas, as I haven't seen them since the last one. I would be travelling from what is now becoming a very low infection area However, reading things like this, I'm seriously considering changing my mind and waiting for Easter instead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terminally Yellow 2,448 Posted November 25, 2020 16 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said: My intention was, and still is, to see my family at Christmas, as I haven't seen them since the last one. I would be travelling from what is now becoming a very low infection area However, reading things like this, I'm seriously considering changing my mind and waiting for Easter instead I can't stand my family so any excuse to delay the annual catch up is a welcome one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,679 Posted November 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said: The government should never, ever again claim to be following the science as they have clearly abandoned that strategy, if they were ever following it in the first place. Its a bit patronising to be told we will let you meet up with whomever, even if they are travelling from high infection areas, because of Christmas but we will put you back into lockdown later. and the government encouraging people to risk infecting their parents when a vaccine is days away is just irresponsible. If you have Catch Up watch a BBC2 program from Tuesday night regarding the virus. It is a litany of incompetence by science and government. We never stood a chance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill 1,788 Posted November 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said: It is. And I am against blanket lockdowns. The point I'm making is that if you have a policy then you should stick to it and not say we will suspend the policy just because it is Christmas. There's no rationality in that argument, and if you do it then you might as well have no policy at all. People will meet up despite the regulations, the way to deal with that is to warn people that they are putting vulnerable elderly people - their own parents and grandparents - at risk if they meet up, so it should be their decision if they wish to kill their own kin. Or wait a couple of extra weeks until the vulnerable have been vaccinated. The rationality is one of commerce ... you know, money The same rationale that sees no problem in underfunding the NHS, reducing the necessary reserves of PPE and having a shortage of 50,000 nurses And the policy is being followed to the letter - much as with an overheated car radiator. Open the cap enough to reduce the pressure, but not to let it blow out Something that is always going to be trial and error, not a consistent position. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Well b back 3,190 Posted November 27, 2020 If interested this report claims to know the scientific advice given to the government. I cannot garuntee it is correct, but it does explain why the scientists seem at odds with the government. As most have said, just seems mad when the end, even if that end is another 4 months, is in sight. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/coronavirus-double-over-christmas-more-23079705 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Well b back 3,190 Posted November 28, 2020 I have no reason to disbelieve what is being said here so why does the government then think reopening our houses at Christmas is a good idea. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55112078 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tetteys Jig 830 Posted November 28, 2020 (edited) Its a shame they can't just delay Christmas for 3 months. I get the rationale behind the decision since many people would have just broken the rules anyway and they are basically unenforceable. You'd have nosey neighbours switching etc and it would be a mess. We shouldn't have to rely on the government to do the right thing but here we are. Personally I'm a bit apprehensive about the whole thing while my wife is on the phone to her sister about our Christmas gathering and is desperate to see her new nephews who are going to be born the week prior to Christmas. End of the day, people need to be sensible and take some personal responsibility given how close we are to vaccines changing the game. If you do have a Christmas meet up, keep the place well ventilated, distance where you can, make sure the house is clean from top to bottom and limit overnight stays and don't take the ****. If everyone did that then we would "get away with it" but you can guarantee that they won't. Its not just a British thing though, all of Europe is struggling the same to varying degrees. Edited November 28, 2020 by Tetteys Jig Share this post Link to post Share on other sites