McLean to Rangers in January?

[ec-p 90]

I think we need Kenny around for the rest of this season, we know the impact injuries have on the team and he is a versatile, experienced player to have in the squad, either as a starter or on the bench over a long, difficult season. 
I would imagine he is well liked in the dressing room too and one of our original core group of players when we were promoted and good for morale. 
if he really has his heart set on Rangers, promise to let him go at the end of the season, regardless of our position.

[ged in the onion bag 854]

41 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Whilst I agree with you in principle, I think Stiepermann has a big role to play this season, not least because his link up with Pukki is helping the latter re-discover his confidence which could be crucial for us.  i also think we were a bit quick to ditch Stiepermann last season. He's a clever player who should be able to adapt to the top level. 

I can't agree with any of that except that he is a clever player but the problem is that whilst he clearly sees the right options at the right time in his brain, his quality lets him down so often, he's unable to execute what he sees.    He's far too inconsistent, goes missing from games for large periods and most of the time we carry him.   The odd goal or assist isn't enough and someone else (like Martin) could be more or at least as effective whilst gaining valuable experience that would make him a much better option but one with potential.    Marco loses the ball far too easily for two reasons; his poor control lets him down often and he doesn't protect the ball well with his body, it gets nicked off him far too easily and often.   That then leaves us vulnerable to the counter.     

I thought he over-achieved in our Champs winning season and that was evident in the Premier League where he was so far out of his depth, Farke had no option.    Check out his stats in the EPL, quite uncomfortable reading.   He was given enough opportunity to adapt to the EPL but unfortunately, just like Vrancic, Leitner and Trybull who had less playing time, he couldn't.   

Wish someone on this forum could offer justifiable evidence to back up his 'consistent' value to the team and why he should be in ahead of Martin.    This link with Pukki, where is all the evidence, how often does a telling pass get to Pukki.... two passes (exceptional passes) against Bristol City doesn't make him the reason for Pukki's improvement which is more down to Buendia and the fact he is playing at a lower level where he's able to rediscover his confidence.   Since that first-half performance against Bristol, he's been absent (Millwall and Swansea) until the goal.

[kirku 1,332]

12 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

There are countless bargains to be had in football right now, market values have drastically fallen for all but top level players. 

I'd be surprised if we got any more than £3m for McLean, wouldn't be surprised if it were considerably less. 

Fair enough, makes sense. I hadn't realised the extent to which the market has been decimated.

Maybe Derby's prospective new owners fancy overpaying for another Norwich midfielder...

[LaUnionCanary 86]

One consideration for any transfer to Rangers... his salary.  Would they equal, or even come close, to the amount we pay him? Wer Sham were also said to be interested last window/

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

Swap him for Ryan Kent, then it's a deal.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

58 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

I can't agree with any of that except that he is a clever player but the problem is that whilst he clearly sees the right options at the right time in his brain, his quality lets him down so often, he's unable to execute what he sees.    He's far too inconsistent, goes missing from games for large periods and most of the time we carry him.   The odd goal or assist isn't enough and someone else (like Martin) could be more or at least as effective whilst gaining valuable experience that would make him a much better option but one with potential.    Marco loses the ball far too easily for two reasons; his poor control lets him down often and he doesn't protect the ball well with his body, it gets nicked off him far too easily and often.   That then leaves us vulnerable to the counter.     

I thought he over-achieved in our Champs winning season and that was evident in the Premier League where he was so far out of his depth, Farke had no option.    Check out his stats in the EPL, quite uncomfortable reading.   He was given enough opportunity to adapt to the EPL but unfortunately, just like Vrancic, Leitner and Trybull who had less playing time, he couldn't.   

Wish someone on this forum could offer justifiable evidence to back up his 'consistent' value to the team and why he should be in ahead of Martin.    This link with Pukki, where is all the evidence, how often does a telling pass get to Pukki.... two passes (exceptional passes) against Bristol City doesn't make him the reason for Pukki's improvement which is more down to Buendia and the fact he is playing at a lower level where he's able to rediscover his confidence.   Since that first-half performance against Bristol, he's been absent (Millwall and Swansea) until the goal.

I agree he was disappointing in the home games but he is proven over the course of a season at this level.

On the other hand Martin, whilst promising, has not yet shown anything to suggest he is ready to step into that role in the side.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Wish someone on this forum could offer justifiable evidence to back up his 'consistent' value to the team and why he should be in ahead of Martin

Stiepermann being a number 10 and Martin being more of a winger perhaps?

I'm pretty sure it was Dowell who was brought in to compete for that central spot, seems to lack the pace to be a wide player. We'll find out when he's fit I'm sure. 

Dowell to me looks the most likely  to have a good go at staking a claim for that number 10 spot. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[GenerationA47 750]

23 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

As our squad quality improves across  the board then there will be those whose services are no longer required, if they sell for more than we paid, and their replacement is superior/cheaper/ younger/more versatile...is that not a good thing?

After saying all that I'm not gonna get me knickers in a twist about an article in the Sun which is then picked up by clickbait central and aggregator  of tripe,NewsNow.

Is Cambridgeshire Canary the living embodiment of  NewsNow?

That is how Newsnow presents on the face of it, but it's garbage in, garbage out, which is in your hands

Publications Filter is your friend (just need to get a free newsnow account). It hides results from websites you select.

e.g. meaning I no longer need to bother with the ad-draped nonsense at the other end of significant-sounding headlines, from the likes of Football League World and Soccersouls. Other BS clickbait sites are available for panning... including whichever national tabloids bother to report on Norwich news. Although, much as i personally despise the Scum newspaper I understand it sometimes gets transfer stuff right, eg more than twitter ITKs.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

4 minutes ago, GenerationA47 said:

That is how Newsnow presents on the face of it, but it's garbage in, garbage out, which is in your hands

Publications Filter is your friend (just need to get a free newsnow account). It hides results from websites you select.

e.g. meaning I no longer need to bother with the ad-draped nonsense at the other end of significant-sounding headlines, from the likes of Football League World and Soccersouls. Other BS clickbait sites are available for panning... including whichever national tabloids bother to report on Norwich news. Although, much as i personally despise the Scum newspaper I understand it sometimes gets transfer stuff right, eg more than twitter ITKs.

Cant argue with any of that. I tend not to read  any transfer spekkilashun nowadays, I did, up until a couple of years ago when I realised that I was spending hours( if you added it up) reading about stuff that may or may not happen..... got too much else to do that is, sometimes anyway, productive.  

A quick look at the transfer threads on here tells me most if not all of the current rumours. Since we got SW though, transfer news is often a surprise. 

[ged in the onion bag 854]

34 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I agree he was disappointing in the home games but he is proven over the course of a season at this level.

On the other hand Martin, whilst promising, has not yet shown anything to suggest he is ready to step into that role in the side.

Martin is yet to have a proper chance but the fact he's in the squad would suggest otherwise!    What opportunities has he had to really show his abilities..... I mean had a proper run of games / minutes on the pitch?      Do recall the Darmstadt game when Steipi threw himself theatrically to the floor 25yds out, the ref fell for it and Martin curled in a beauty of a free-kick.  Its somewhere on You Tube I'm sure.    Note also how Aarons and Lewis, Godfrey, Idah etc... have stepped up given the opportunity.   

So many of our fans living on his past efforts; that Championship season was two years ago and the team has moved on.  Marco (who definitely over-achieved then) is also a different player now, playing with less confidence and knowing he won't be going forward to the EPL again.     We have tried him at the higher level, whats the point of him being in the way of anothers progress if he goes missing for two out of three games, especially when other's may not.    For the limited contributions he gives us, it makes every sense to play Martin or Cantwell or Platcheta or Hernandez or Dowell ahead of him and if we need someone to play as an out and out No. 10, then Emi is ready made, so is Cantwell, and Martin's skill set fits that too.         

[GenerationA47 750]

1 minute ago, wcorkcanary said:

 

Know exactly what you mean, I tend to get overly addicted to newsnow at the start and end of transfer windows, or indeed when recent major successes turn me into a frenzied, excitable Canary puppy

[Indy 3,286]

Let’s not beat round the bush, McClean is a decent player at this level, but we have so many better younger players who need game time. He’s not the next level we need and by developing the likes of Sorensen or Mumba this year gives us more chance of staying up if we get promoted. I’m sure Sorensen is probably on lower wages and if 4 million is really the fee then great profit thanks to McClean.

[sonyc 5,492]

3 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

I can't agree with any of that except that he is a clever player but the problem is that whilst he clearly sees the right options at the right time in his brain, his quality lets him down so often, he's unable to execute what he sees.    He's far too inconsistent, goes missing from games for large periods and most of the time we carry him.   The odd goal or assist isn't enough and someone else (like Martin) could be more or at least as effective whilst gaining valuable experience that would make him a much better option but one with potential.    Marco loses the ball far too easily for two reasons; his poor control lets him down often and he doesn't protect the ball well with his body, it gets nicked off him far too easily and often.   That then leaves us vulnerable to the counter.     

I thought he over-achieved in our Champs winning season and that was evident in the Premier League where he was so far out of his depth, Farke had no option.    Check out his stats in the EPL, quite uncomfortable reading.   He was given enough opportunity to adapt to the EPL but unfortunately, just like Vrancic, Leitner and Trybull who had less playing time, he couldn't.   

Wish someone on this forum could offer justifiable evidence to back up his 'consistent' value to the team and why he should be in ahead of Martin.    This link with Pukki, where is all the evidence, how often does a telling pass get to Pukki.... two passes (exceptional passes) against Bristol City doesn't make him the reason for Pukki's improvement which is more down to Buendia and the fact he is playing at a lower level where he's able to rediscover his confidence.   Since that first-half performance against Bristol, he's been absent (Millwall and Swansea) until the goal.

Well I agree with this. Wholeheartedly. I like Stiepermann as a character and he played two lovely passes in the Bristol match and a great winner in the last match. One could argue he has helped us to 6 points. He is an odd player, being so slow on the ball and I believe, has an inability to turn quickly (hence he is robbed of possess quite regularly). Yet, he produces decisive moments! What do you do with him? He frustrates the life out of me like no other player (my son can't count the number of times I shout at the screen!) and then he is able to make a telling contribution. Inconsistency is thus the main issue for me. I like those players who time and time again find players, when you just know there is more of a chance of a successful pass. Pukki has a great touch and control. He so often finds his passes, to give an example. Emi is far more unpredictable. Likewise, Todd Cantwell. 

I hope Marco keeps changing games and proving me wrong (I would have subbed him well before he scored last week!) but equally I want to see Martin much more. I suppose his chance will come.

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by sonyc

[ged in the onion bag 854]

On 15/11/2020 at 11:22, TheGunnShow said:

Think that's a good move for Kenny to be fair. Consistently in the running for titles and European football, and Rupp's definitely showing himself the better player right now. That said, Kenny's a good back-up at Premiership level and as @Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man put it, he's useful to have around.

If we've got a youngster coming along who's looking quite close (@Bethnal Yellow and Green seemed to say in previous posts re. the youth team that Hondermarck could be coming along best so far) then I'd be up for the sale, thank Kenny for pretty good service and some damned funny celebrations when we won the Championship, and wish him the best of luck in winning titles north of the border.

This 'good back up' thing that a number of our fans suggest!    Don't get that.    If you are a progressive club seeking to develop and improve, why keep 'back up' players around, especially ones not at the required level.  To improve, the players need competition, that means they get an opportunity and look to keep the shirt.   Whats the incentive to perform when these players know they are a back up, good substitutes?     Anyone that can't hold down a place at Premiership level (I would bracket Kenny, Mario, Marco and Alex Tettey in that) doesn't have incentive or offer the players with the shirts incentive to stay focused / on their toes / competitive.    

Take Kenny last season for example, by January, our other options (Trybull, Leitner, Amadou) had been exhausted and it became apparent we only had McLean and Tettey capable of coping with the EPL level and indeed they couldn't cope with it very well, but they knew there was no one else to threaten their shirt..... that position was the main reason we failed to compete last season.

Say we get promoted, next season we will have Rupp and Sorensen in those two central midfield roles.... Highly unlikely we will have Skipp and McLean / Tettey / Vrancic / Leitner aren't up to it.......our younger crop (Hondermarck for example) needs time out on loan and no central midfielder is currently at the level it seems, not sure how Sitti is doing......... the club surely know this was where / why we failed to compete last time....

Rupp for all his efforts so far isn't going to be a top class EPL option so we desperately need to develop Sorensen to see if he is up to it and even then we will have to sign two proven quality players.    Players in the style of Skipp, an Ndidi, Kante, Gueye etc.... with tenacity, speed, an engine, a significant upgrade on Alex Tettey.      We should be looking to bring at least one in this January to bed in and hopefully the scouts can identify some options.    If we didn't, it would be grossly unfair on Farke .... if we go up next time, we have to give him a chance.

Edited November 16, 2020 by ged in the onion bag

[Chelm Canary 404]

Stiepermann can once again play a pivotal role in our promotion from the championship.  The criticism im reading right now is nothing short of bizarre. 

He's just regained some form - setup 2 against Bristol and scored the only goal against Swansea.....and now this is being said. 

Genuinely shocked. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Chelm Canary

[ged in the onion bag 854]

19 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

Stiepermann can once again play a pivotal role in our promotion from the championship.  The criticism im reading right now is nothing short of bizarre. 

He's just regained some form - setup 2 against Bristol and scored the only goal against Swansea.....and now this is being said. 

Genuinely shocked. 

He could, he could score 8 goals and give us 8 assists but then so could someone else, Martin, Cantwell, for example, but one thing is for sure, in between those goals and assists he won't contribute that much to the team and he certainly doesn't offer any future potential should his 'possible' contribution help us to promotion.   Of course, there is a good possibility he won't play a pivotal role.    

I would suggest the criticism has been reasonably articulated based on what he produces on the park, his qualities and effectiveness or otherwise and his inconsistency.    If you are a fan that only bases opinion on the major incidents in matches, (the goals) or listens to hearsay, then its unlikely you would appreciate the criticisms raised.    That said, he's not that involved so there's not a lot to base the opinion on.      If you watch with all the detail then you wouldn't be shocked.   

He only set up one goal in that game v Bristol, but was also caught napping for their goal, was culpable for Martin hitting the post for Bristol and getting Sorensen booked.... all when he was supposedly brilliant.     

He hasn't just regained some form, he's made two good passes and managed to score against Swansea.   Except for that what form?  The second half v Bristol City, the Millwall game and 85 mins v Swansea, why are you shocked?   

[Bonzo 198]

I can't see Rangers paying much.

Kenny is a #8 along with Rupp and possibly Sorensen. He isn't a #6 like Skipp or Tetty so he's not a competitor for the defensive midfield specialist role.

Until Sorensen is proven in the #8  role I'd guess we'll hold onto Kenny.

Farke likes him and a lot of Kenny's contributions are out of possession ones with his interceptions and closing of passing lanes clear strengths and in possession his distribution and ball retention is generally good- the only downside is that we 'd all love to see more goals and assists from him-However good run might see him make a greater impact in the offensive third and historically he does have goals and assists in him when in form. 

He's worth more to us than he is to Rangers. An in form Kenny can be a a genuine force in the Championship. I think we need to keep him. 

[Capt. Pants 4,202]

Well we've left ourselves thin on the ground in terms of defensive cover at LB and CB so I doubt the club will care too much about selling McLean given we have plenty of cover in that position.

Really can't see us turning down near £4m for a player that has already shown he's probably not good enough for the Premier League even if he's a decent bog standard Championship level player. Kenny would regard it as a step up too I would have thought.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

3 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

This 'good back up' thing that a number of our fans suggest!    Don't get that.    If you are a progressive club seeking to develop and improve, why keep 'back up' players around, especially ones not at the required level.  To improve, the players need competition, that means they get an opportunity and look to keep the shirt.   Whats the incentive to perform when these players know they are a back up, good substitutes?     Anyone that can't hold down a place at Premiership level (I would bracket Kenny, Mario, Marco and Alex Tettey in that) doesn't have incentive or offer the players with the shirts incentive to stay focused / on their toes / competitive.    

Take Kenny last season for example, by January, our other options (Trybull, Leitner, Amadou) had been exhausted and it became apparent we only had McLean and Tettey capable of coping with the EPL level and indeed they couldn't cope with it very well, but they knew there was no one else to threaten their shirt..... that position was the main reason we failed to compete last season.

Say we get promoted, next season we will have Rupp and Sorensen in those two central midfield roles.... Highly unlikely we will have Skipp and McLean / Tettey / Vrancic / Leitner aren't up to it.......our younger crop (Hondermarck for example) needs time out on loan and no central midfielder is currently at the level it seems, not sure how Sitti is doing......... the club surely know this was where / why we failed to compete last time....

Rupp for all his efforts so far isn't going to be a top class EPL option so we desperately need to develop Sorensen to see if he is up to it and even then we will have to sign two proven quality players.    Players in the style of Skipp, an Ndidi, Kante, Gueye etc.... with tenacity, speed, an engine, a significant upgrade on Alex Tettey.      We should be looking to bring at least one in this January to bed in and hopefully the scouts can identify some options.    If we didn't, it would be grossly unfair on Farke .... if we go up next time, we have to give him a chance.

The weakness in that call is that it overstates what the notion of a back-up player is, and it also forgets the fact we had the mother of all injury crises in a single position. A back-up player, by definition, is not a player expected to be consistently solid week in, week out. He's there as a player who can help out for a few games whilst the big guns recover from injury or take a little rest in rotating the load.

The problem we had was that we were so threadbare, and several back-ups were playing at once. You sorta said it in the part in bold. They could cope with it, but not consistently. If we hadn't had so many wounded at centre-half it would have allowed our midfielders to play with a bit more freedom instead of the horribly inhibited displays we saw week-in, week-out.

I wouldn't write off Rupp yet. Not saying he's going to be the next Foden or de Bruyne, but a player that's settled into a team that's more consistent and more at ease with itself, compared to the bumbling, injury-ridden, confidence-starved mess we were just before the lockdown when he was settling into the country...you may be right, but I wouldn't be so quick to write him off going off his emergence this season. Although I do agree that we need more options there if we go up, but I also think Sorensen's going to be one that well could make it going off his performances and game intelligence when not in his best position, and personally I'd take Rupp over Leitner every single day of the week.

Agree with the call for a Tettey upgrade. Maybe Sitti is it, we don't know. Famewo's increasingly looking like the next centre-half.

[ged in the onion bag 854]

11 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

The weakness in that call is that it overstates what the notion of a back-up player is, and it also forgets the fact we had the mother of all injury crises in a single position. A back-up player, by definition, is not a player expected to be consistently solid week in, week out. He's there as a player who can help out for a few games whilst the big guns recover from injury or take a little rest in rotating the load.

The problem we had was that we were so threadbare, and several back-ups were playing at once. You sorta said it in the part in bold. They could cope with it, but not consistently. If we hadn't had so many wounded at centre-half it would have allowed our midfielders to play with a bit more freedom instead of the horribly inhibited displays we saw week-in, week-out.

I wouldn't write off Rupp yet. Not saying he's going to be the next Foden or de Bruyne, but a player that's settled into a team that's more consistent and more at ease with itself, compared to the bumbling, injury-ridden, confidence-starved mess we were just before the lockdown when he was settling into the country...you may be right, but I wouldn't be so quick to write him off going off his emergence this season. Although I do agree that we need more options there if we go up, but I also think Sorensen's going to be one that well could make it going off his performances and game intelligence when not in his best position, and personally I'd take Rupp over Leitner every single day of the week.

Agree with the call for a Tettey upgrade. Maybe Sitti is it, we don't know. Famewo's increasingly looking like the next centre-half.

Fair response and I wasn't writing Rupp off, just suggesting that if he were our No. 1 central midfielder in the EPL, then we are pretty much in a similar predicament to last time.   He certainly seems more reliable than what we had based on this season although having Skipp there as insurance may be helping him.   

Ideally, Rupp and Sorensen still learning and Sitti and others would be competing for places but with a couple of better players than we've had previously.....   It's also interesting how our young players, given opportunity find a way of stepping up.

Those that were 'back ups' last season, weren't initially, but it became a situation where that was all they could be!  Surely we dont want that again, we need players on the subs bench that can influence not only a game but a team... and i think our philosoply is taking us in that direction.    

From Kenny's angle, pretty sure he would rather be playing for Rangers than a bit part for us.  

[Chelm Canary 404]

4 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

He could, he could score 8 goals and give us 8 assists but then so could someone else, Martin, Cantwell, for example, but one thing is for sure, in between those goals and assists he won't contribute that much to the team and he certainly doesn't offer any future potential should his 'possible' contribution help us to promotion.   Of course, there is a good possibility he won't play a pivotal role

I was discussing what he has done. 

You're discussing possibilities. 

You can't prove a negative. 

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

2 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Fair response and I wasn't writing Rupp off, just suggesting that if he were our No. 1 central midfielder in the EPL, then we are pretty much in a similar predicament to last time.   He certainly seems more reliable than what we had based on this season although having Skipp there as insurance may be helping him.   

Ideally, Rupp and Sorensen still learning and Sitti and others would be competing for places but with a couple of better players than we've had previously.....   It's also interesting how our young players, given opportunity find a way of stepping up.

Those that were 'back ups' last season, weren't initially, but it became a situation where that was all they could be!  Surely we dont want that again, we need players on the subs bench that can influence not only a game but a team... and i think our philosoply is taking us in that direction.    

From Kenny's angle, pretty sure he would rather be playing for Rangers than a bit part for us.  

I dunno re. the bit in bold.... but there's the fun in this one as this is hypothetical. Remember, we both essentially agree that McLean is, at the very best, a bit-part player in the Premier who can hold up a line as often as not, but is not good enough week in and week out. I suspect we both agree that Rupp is quite an upgrade in McLean right now. The main thing is to avoid a **** of an injury crisis in the centre of defence. I'd also reckon a lot of it is regular game time as don't forget that Rupp's not played much before he came to Norwich as he had a bad injury. So, not much recent game time, new country, struggling team, team full of injuries, playing out of position - not that surprising he didn't set the world on fire. That said, I thought he showed up very well in some matches, especially the FA Cup tie against Utd and also the league games against Newcastle and Liverpool despite being out of position.

I'm beginning to think Sorensen is the Tettey or indeed Skipp replacement, although maybe we could get Skipp for another season if we go up. A lot is going to rest on Sitti's development. Hondermarck will probably be ready for a season on loan. We do need a couple more if we go up, and if anything I'd prefer a couple of tacklers.

Agree with the last bit totally, especially as Kenny was a youth player with Rangers.

[ged in the onion bag 854]

1 hour ago, Chelm Canary said:

I was discussing what he has done. 

You're discussing possibilities. 

You can't prove a negative. 

 

6 hours ago, Chelm Canary said:

Stiepermann can once again play a pivotal role in our promotion

Four hours ago, you said 'can once again play a pivotal role'.......... that's suggesting possibilities in my book?      I gave you my reasoned response as to why I believe he is a liability and will hinder rather than assist, our promotion push.   That was based on what I have seen, not possibilities.   I said 'possible contribution' because you set that tone... you can't turn that on me.        

Your response above is typical of posters that throw in comments but can't back them with informed facts... then have nothing to offer constructive in response.     I wasn't proving or trying to prove any point negative or otherwise, just giving an opinion based on what I see.    

If you think I am wrong and want to respond, feel free, but give me some idea as to why I am wrong, some evidence based on what you see of Marco, what attributes he offers that I am missing!    I'd be more than happy to take a look and learn from it.     

What do you make of my comments about Marco's negative involvement v Bristol City.   Take a look back, he didn't challenge for the ball (he should have) and we conceded, it was a quite diabolical mess up that set up Martin when he hit the post, and his pass for Platcheta was so bad, it resulted in Sorensen getting booked.     

Edited November 16, 2020 by ged in the onion bag

[ged in the onion bag 854]

10 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I dunno re. the bit in bold.... but there's the fun in this one as this is hypothetical. Remember, we both essentially agree that McLean is, at the very best, a bit-part player in the Premier who can hold up a line as often as not, but is not good enough week in and week out. I suspect we both agree that Rupp is quite an upgrade in McLean right now. The main thing is to avoid a **** of an injury crisis in the centre of defence. I'd also reckon a lot of it is regular game time as don't forget that Rupp's not played much before he came to Norwich as he had a bad injury. So, not much recent game time, new country, struggling team, team full of injuries, playing out of position - not that surprising he didn't set the world on fire. That said, I thought he showed up very well in some matches, especially the FA Cup tie against Utd and also the league games against Newcastle and Liverpool despite being out of position.

I'm beginning to think Sorensen is the Tettey or indeed Skipp replacement, although maybe we could get Skipp for another season if we go up. A lot is going to rest on Sitti's development. Hondermarck will probably be ready for a season on loan. We do need a couple more if we go up, and if anything I'd prefer a couple of tacklers.

Agree with the last bit totally, especially as Kenny was a youth player with Rangers.

Everything you say reasoning Rupp's experience so far is spot on, so many difficulties and definitely not easy for him.   I haven't been one of those to lay criticism with him.   I recall Robert Pires had a very poor first season when he joined Arsenal.    Once he'd got used to the league he was unplayable but then he always had so much ability.     

Rupp is excelling in his rightful position and I agree is an upgrade on McLean.   The EPL is a step up though and if things continue this way then he will deserve his opportunity to play, just like those that got us up last time.     The problem we have in my view is that these central midfield positions are the most crucial of all in that league and if we go up, we can't afford to be lightweight again.   We will only have Rupp and Sorensen who remains an unknown quantity and is unlikely to be ready for the EPL.  That being the case, there is no alternative but to sign at least two more players of proven ability.  Two that we would expect to be better than Rupp and I think we'd agree would need to be athletic, strong, quick, tenacious and can play a bit.    We can't rely on Skipp as that would not happen until the final week before the season (no doubt Spurs will wait to see how they are fixed before releasing him) and that is too much of a risk.    Anything less than two and we remain vulnerable to injuries.   I would be surprised if Sitti makes it with us but its very unlikely he would be ready next season.

Can't believe I am talking about us in the EPL again with so much expectation, but I do think we are heading back there.  

If we do, then based on what we have and whose likely to be ready, McLean would be next in line if still here (4th or 5th).    If he is fifth in line, that may be fine but if we get offered £3m then I can't see him being here.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

20 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Everything you say reasoning Rupp's experience so far is spot on, so many difficulties and definitely not easy for him.   I haven't been one of those to lay criticism with him.   I recall Robert Pires had a very poor first season when he joined Arsenal.    Once he'd got used to the league he was unplayable but then he always had so much ability.     

Rupp is excelling in his rightful position and I agree is an upgrade on McLean.   The EPL is a step up though and if things continue this way then he will deserve his opportunity to play, just like those that got us up last time.     The problem we have in my view is that these central midfield positions are the most crucial of all in that league and if we go up, we can't afford to be lightweight again.   We will only have Rupp and Sorensen who remains an unknown quantity and is unlikely to be ready for the EPL.  That being the case, there is no alternative but to sign at least two more players of proven ability.  Two that we would expect to be better than Rupp and I think we'd agree would need to be athletic, strong, quick, tenacious and can play a bit.    We can't rely on Skipp as that would not happen until the final week before the season (no doubt Spurs will wait to see how they are fixed before releasing him) and that is too much of a risk.    Anything less than two and we remain vulnerable to injuries.   I would be surprised if Sitti makes it with us but its very unlikely he would be ready next season.

Can't believe I am talking about us in the EPL again with so much expectation, but I do think we are heading back there.  

If we do, then based on what we have and whose likely to be ready, McLean would be next in line if still here (4th or 5th).    If he is fifth in line, that may be fine but if we get offered £3m then I can't see him being here.

Hmm. I still think there's more upside in Rupp, but it would take a promotion to find out for certain. So whilst I'd agree we need two and agree with the physicality argument re. what is required, I'm not convinced they'd both have to be better than Rupp (and how would we find/finance them?) and the Skipp case is hit-and-miss. If we could get Skipp in early, that would actually solve one of the positions in question.

Ideally, one would be home-grown as well. Which definitely raises the financing question, as there's generally a fair premium on UK players. This could be somewhat erased now by the coronavirus pandemic and it would be a logical conclusion to draw the more this drags on with its effect on club finances across the country, but time will tell.

I'd argue that goalkeeper and central defence is the most important position though, especially with the way we play. Not saying that a sub-standard central midfield is good, but I'm not averse to seeing us have two in the middle who don't push much, especially with our full-backs pushing on like they do and three attacking midfielders. We already saw what happened to our midfield last season when we lost so many defenders - they were very inhibited, as well as our full-backs!

[ged in the onion bag 854]

24 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Hmm. I still think there's more upside in Rupp, but it would take a promotion to find out for certain. So whilst I'd agree we need two and agree with the physicality argument re. what is required, I'm not convinced they'd both have to be better than Rupp (and how would we find/finance them?) and the Skipp case is hit-and-miss. If we could get Skipp in early, that would actually solve one of the positions in question.

Ideally, one would be home-grown as well. Which definitely raises the financing question, as there's generally a fair premium on UK players. This could be somewhat erased now by the coronavirus pandemic and it would be a logical conclusion to draw the more this drags on with its effect on club finances across the country, but time will tell.

I'd argue that goalkeeper and central defence is the most important position though, especially with the way we play. Not saying that a sub-standard central midfield is good, but I'm not averse to seeing us have two in the middle who don't push much, especially with our full-backs pushing on like they do and three attacking midfielders. We already saw what happened to our midfield last season when we lost so many defenders - they were very inhibited, as well as our full-backs!

That's quite risky....  I would argue our failure to control midfield put extra pressure on our defence last season both in and out of possession, we struggled to play out from the back through the middle (none of them were good enough to receive the ball under pressure to break the press) and then they failed to stop opposition attacks from anywhere.  We had a very young inexperienced defence too and no leader to guide them.   I firmly believe that without the injuries and if we could have backed up the Man City win we may have had enough to survive.

If we rely on Rupp as one of our two best central midfielders, I think we will struggle to thrive and at this stage we have to believe we can thrive.   Hopefully, our scouting network can unearth these players but otherwise, we will have to spend and / or find a suitable loan player early.   Rupp may be able to do an adequate job, he is doing well but he doesn't seem to have those specific attributes of strength, athleticism or pace or even high quality to dominate and control games in the EPL.     If Skipp does well this season, he will want his chance with Spurs, especially if they are in Europe, but Spurs will likely wait to see what they have and give Skipp a chance to show his worth in pre-season so we can't rely on that..... we have to be in control of our destiny. 

We definitely need competition for Krul, (even now) as McGovern is nowhere near adequate.    Thought Krul was pretty poor in our Championship winning season but last season and this, he has been virtually faultless.  

Defensively, be surprised if we have Aarons this time next year, even if we get promoted.. hope I am wrong.... and I fear Quintilla is a tad lightweight, but we have some promising youngsters and some more experience with Gibson and Zimmermann.    I am hoping (even expecting) that Famewo will be a mainstay centre-half before this season is out, barring injury and loan arrangements.  

One thing is for sure, we have so much promise, a brilliant club philosophy and expectant good times ahead whatever happens.   If we go up again, we should have the insurance of the sales money, the Premier League money etc...  It would make sense then to spend if necessary to fill the gaps and make us competitive.   

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

Fascinating thread, this; lots of really interesting opinions.

While I agree that we should be looking to 'churn' the squad a little bit to try and move on players who have already tried and failed at EPL level (Trybull, Leitner and Drmic were the 'first wave'), we also have to factor in the financial black hole left by coronavirus and not overcommitting to that churn before we know what division we will be in next season.

I would argue that Hanley, McLean and Stiepermann are the 'next wave' of players we'd be looking to offload (plus Tettey will retire at the end of the season, Klose is already gone in my mind, and we need to replace McGovern too). Take those nine players out of the squad, and we're left with nobody who has proven they're not good enough at EPL level (at least as a squad player):

Krul
Aarons, Gibson, Zimmermann, Quintilla, Byram, Mumba, McCallum, Famewo, Bushiri
Sorensen, Rupp, Skipp, Sorensen, Vrancic, Sitti
Cantwell, Buendia, Dowell, Placheta, Hernandez, Sinani, Martin
Hugill, Idah, Pukki, Soto

I think we'd be able to buy Gibson without much trouble if we went up, but Skipp will depend upon Mourinho, and Quintilla is anybody's guess. Looking at the players listed above, we're once again extremely light on experience; if we just trust our up-and-coming U23 players (Mumba, McCallum, Famewo, Bushiri, Martin, Idah) and unknown imports (Sitti, Sorensen, Sinani, Soto) to make the step up we're no better off than last time unless something amazing happens. Plus we've got other 'jury is still out' players in there like Byram (great if fit!), Vrancic, Rupp, Hernandez and Hugill.

If we end up having to sell any of Emi, Todd and Max, what's left in terms of proven EPL quality? We just have to accept that, in the current climate, we are a long way off having an EPL-ready squad even if we do go up. If we do get promoted, some of the new lads will no doubt surprise us in the way that Cantwell did last season, there will no doubt be further signings (with more than £750,000 spent this time around!) and further down the line we might get an instant impact from one or two of the next generation of Academy talents (Omobamidele, Hondermarck, Omotoye et al).

Obtaining and retaining EPL status in the current global financial climate, with our relatively limited means, offers so little margin for error it's scary. But it's scary for everyone right now, and the boom-and-bust model is more risky than ever before as many EFL clubs risk going to the wall in pursuit of EPL riches.

And as for Kenny? Before any of the above can come to fruition, we need to get to the EPL. With the fixture congestion between now and May, he's worth a lot more to us than £4m in the bank (and I doubt Rangers would go that high, let alone even higher).

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

22 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Where actually is leitner? I assume he's still about given i don;t remember hearing anything about him being sold or loaned out?

I believe that Drmic and Leitner are still training with the U23's but told that their game time will be limited (in U23 games) because they don't want to hinder the progress of any of our youngsters.

Its funny because I recall Webber being somewhat critical of the club accruing a bit of expensive deadwood when he arrived, but we've had our fair share of it under Webber haven't we.... Heise is still contracted as well. I suppose this happens to every club.

[hogesar 9,618]

2 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I believe that Drmic and Leitner are still training with the U23's but told that their game time will be limited (in U23 games) because they don't want to hinder the progress of any of our youngsters.

Its funny because I recall Webber being somewhat critical of the club accruing a bit of expensive deadwood when he arrived, but we've had our fair share of it under Webber haven't we.... Heise is still contracted as well. I suppose this happens to every club.

Bit of a unique situation, without the pandemic I reckon both Drmic and Leitner would have clubs.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

17 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Bit of a unique situation, without the pandemic I reckon both Drmic and Leitner would have clubs.

Not only that Hoggo, but I believe  the main thrust of Webber complaints  was that none of the players had relegation clauses  when he arrived....  they sure do now.  So, though still ' deadwood ' they are relatively  inexpensive compared to pre Webber  days.Still not ideal but I'm sure SW and co have done everything they could to offload above mentioned  players.