President Biden

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

So it took Biden all of six months to bring America to its knees. What a croc....

Maybe Afghanistan is on its knees but Sleepy hasn't reduced the US to that.

And he beat Trump who negotiated a deal with fundamentalists and expected them to honour it. How thick is that? Pull the troops out of Afghanistan because he needed them to protect the Capitol Building.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

55 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Yes, the US can’t even govern itself properly, little hope for any global role. The continuing rise of China will be further enhanced by this latest humiliation, the world that we have known and thought we, maybe even partly, understood for many decades has gone. I’m not sure how the US will respond to China’s inevitable expansion into the Pacific Islands and beyond, the world has become a much more dangerous place IMO.

It cannot respond. Despite us Westerners thinking China is barbaric toward human rights, they have lifted so many of its citizens out of poverty and into a more Western lifestyle with all its benefits.

Why would those more affluent citizens think their government is anything else but good. Mixed with their hard working mentality, they look an unstoppable force.

[Van wink 2,994]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

It cannot respond. Despite us Westerners thinking China is barbaric toward human rights, they have lifted so many of its citizens out of poverty and into a more Western lifestyle with all its benefits.

Why would those more affluent citizens think their government is anything else but good. Mixed with their hard working mentality, they look an unstoppable force.

Absolutely, capitalism and wealth creation but no apparent desire for regime change. Unstoppable.

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

The issue is not whether USA should withdraw from Afghanistan, the majority of sensible people agree that they should, and probably should not have invaded a sovereign country in the first place, but the manner of withdrawal that has now put the lives of thousands in danger for collaborating in one form or another with the Americans. 

The Taliban can talk in soothing terms while the attention of the world's media is on them but as soon as the world moves on to other concerns they have all the time in the world to carry out their dirty work and consolidate their position. 

It does look like the end of Pax Americana but it is also a lesson that borders are there for a reason and should be respected. 

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

13 hours ago, Van wink said:

Absolutely, capitalism and wealth creation but no apparent desire for regime change. Unstoppable.

It's understandable from a citizen's personal point of view that coming out of abject poverty into relative wealth people are prepared to turn a blind eye to the dark side of governance. 

There are parallels with Germany. A wrecked economy in 1918 but a return to relative comfort twenty years later and people ready to ignore the human rights abuses. 

The lesson from history is that it begins to fall apart when governments overstretch themselves as most empires tend to do. The thing with the Chinese is that they always take the long view and are in no hurry to push their interests globally. They are prepared to bide their time. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

It's understandable from a citizen's personal point of view that coming out of abject poverty into relative wealth people are prepared to turn a blind eye to the dark side of governance. 

There are parallels with Germany. A wrecked economy in 1918 but a return to relative comfort twenty years later and people ready to ignore the human rights abuses. 

The lesson from history is that it begins to fall apart when governments overstretch themselves as most empires tend to do. The thing with the Chinese is that they always take the long view and are in no hurry to push their interests globally. They are prepared to bide their time. 

But the human rights abuses are through western eyes. Maybe most of them them do not see it as abuse.

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

But the human rights abuses are through western eyes. Maybe most of them them do not see it as abuse.

Or its an inconvenient truth easily forgotten by the trappings of wealth

[Canary Wundaboy 1,358]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

It's understandable from a citizen's personal point of view that coming out of abject poverty into relative wealth people are prepared to turn a blind eye to the dark side of governance. 

There are parallels with Germany. A wrecked economy in 1918 but a return to relative comfort twenty years later and people ready to ignore the human rights abuses. 

The lesson from history is that it begins to fall apart when governments overstretch themselves as most empires tend to do. The thing with the Chinese is that they always take the long view and are in no hurry to push their interests globally. They are prepared to bide their time. 

Usually I don't agree with anything you write on this forum, but in this post I cannot disagree with a single point. They are convinced of their own superiority in every sense, they believe their communist dictatorship is superior to Western democracy and so they display our failures in all their lurid glory. They believe in their racial superiority, see the atrocities of the 2nd World War, against the Uyghurs etc. They believe in economic superiority, leveraging a massive industrial workforce and a trade deficit to produce cheap goods, Western designs they've stolen or technology they purchase off the desperate Russians. Their population has effectively been brainwashed by a state-controlled media and a lack of outside influence through the Great Firewall. What you end up with is a country with a population of 1.3 billion people who are convinced that their way is correct and have zero objectivity, powered by a massive industrial machine, controlled by a small group of powerful communist leaders who need materials, consumables and space for that population and who have a massive, modern military with which to seize what they need.

China is the greatest threat to Western democratic way of life, it will start with Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and while a weakened, inwardly-focused America is busy tearing itself apart over racial or political lines the Pacific will disappear under a red flag as the rest of the world shouts angrily from the UN but with no political will to do anything about it, and no military might with which to stop it.

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

1 hour ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Usually I don't agree with anything you write on this forum, but in this post I cannot disagree with a single point. They are convinced of their own superiority in every sense, they believe their communist dictatorship is superior to Western democracy and so they display our failures in all their lurid glory. They believe in their racial superiority, see the atrocities of the 2nd World War, against the Uyghurs etc. They believe in economic superiority, leveraging a massive industrial workforce and a trade deficit to produce cheap goods, Western designs they've stolen or technology they purchase off the desperate Russians. Their population has effectively been brainwashed by a state-controlled media and a lack of outside influence through the Great Firewall. What you end up with is a country with a population of 1.3 billion people who are convinced that their way is correct and have zero objectivity, powered by a massive industrial machine, controlled by a small group of powerful communist leaders who need materials, consumables and space for that population and who have a massive, modern military with which to seize what they need.

China is the greatest threat to Western democratic way of life, it will start with Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and while a weakened, inwardly-focused America is busy tearing itself apart over racial or political lines the Pacific will disappear under a red flag as the rest of the world shouts angrily from the UN but with no political will to do anything about it, and no military might with which to stop it.

Much of this is wrong even if I do understand where it is coming from.

First I have travelled freely in China for decades, on my own, unescorted the length and breadth of much of country in places where the world is only now just discovering. The Chinese people are as warm and welcoming  - interested in such an unusual foreigner in their midst (at times I must of been 1 in a million or 10 million), get stared at and often approached because in 'non westernized' parts.

They are not as brainwashed as you suspect - indeed prior the to pandemic anybody who walked around Norwich would have heard many a Chinese tourist. Equally there are large numbers of Chinese at the UEA - students and professors alike. The Chinese tourist RMB (or is it CNY 😉 ) is extremely important to UK tourism with local hotpots such as Bicester Village etc. destinations! Very frankly the Chinese middle class is now very wealthy by our standards and fully cognizant of the 'West. They are certainly not communist (I always say the average Chinese are 99% entrepreneurs and they work and play extremely hard). Most of my conversations with Chinese business people always come back to the cost (taxes) that that they have to pay employing people! 

What they do have is a largely benign autocracy. If as most do accept its hegemony then they'll let you get on with your life making money and having fun. Be a 'radical' in some manner challenging the party then yes there may be issues. This is not to excuse their gross human rights issues in places (i.e. the Uighurs) but just to place it in context. I wonder how many of us have wondered recently if the Taliban could do with some 'corrective' camps recently! All that said until Xi, general progress even on these issues was positive - dabbling's with local democracy even and of course the well known opening up to the world. My hope and suspicion is that Xi is just a pause, a hiccup in the general trend. 

What people need to grasp is that China is a country  of 1.4 (or is 1.6) billion people many highly educated (far far more than we have) and not backward at all. They no longer need 'us' to help develop or frankly our technology. In many fields they are already or will quickly surpass the west - space will likely be the most obvious to us in the longer term but consider your smartphone, 5G, AI, Quantum computing, nuclear and green technologies. They have huge resources and long term plans not blown off course by the vagaries of fashion or investment trends.

Historically (and luckily) China has never been a truly expansionist state - China is 'big enough' but it does want stability around its borders and has a sphere of influence. Taliban be warned. Be pleased that they do not seem to hold grudges (the 'Boxers') but are far more pragmatic. The past is the past.

We in the 'West' may not like the idea of playing second fiddle in this century but if not we need to up our game considerably and not rest on historical laurels.  Either way we need to maintain a friendly relationship even if we disagree at times.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

41 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Much of this is wrong even if I do understand where it is coming from.

First I have travelled freely in China for decades, on my own, unescorted the length and breadth of much of country in places where the world is only now just discovering. The Chinese people are as warm and welcoming  - interested in such an unusual foreigner in their midst (at times I must of been 1 in a million or 10 million), get stared at and often approached because in 'non westernized' parts.

They are not as brainwashed as you suspect - indeed prior the to pandemic anybody who walked around Norwich would have heard many a Chinese tourist. Equally there are large numbers of Chinese at the UEA - students and professors alike. The Chinese tourist RMB (or is it CNY 😉 ) is extremely important to UK tourism with local hotpots such as Bicester Village etc. destinations! Very frankly the Chinese middle class is now very wealthy by our standards and fully cognizant of the 'West. They are certainly not communist (I always say the average Chinese are 99% entrepreneurs and they work and play extremely hard). Most of my conversations with Chinese business people always come back to the cost (taxes) that that they have to pay employing people! 

What they do have is a largely benign autocracy. If as most do accept its hegemony then they'll let you get on with your life making money and having fun. Be a 'radical' in some manner challenging the party then yes there may be issues. This is not to excuse their gross human rights issues in places (i.e. the Uighurs) but just to place it in context. I wonder how many of us have wondered recently if the Taliban could do with some 'corrective' camps recently! All that said until Xi, general progress even on these issues was positive - dabbling's with local democracy even and of course the well known opening up to the world. My hope and suspicion is that Xi is just a pause, a hiccup in the general trend. 

What people need to grasp is that China is a country  of 1.4 (or is 1.6) billion people many highly educated (far far more than we have) and not backward at all. They no longer need 'us' to help develop or frankly our technology. In many fields they are already or will quickly surpass the west - space will likely be the most obvious to us in the longer term but consider your smartphone, 5G, AI, Quantum computing, nuclear and green technologies. They have huge resources and long term plans not blown off course by the vagaries of fashion or investment trends.

Historically (and luckily) China has never been a truly expansionist state - China is 'big enough' but it does want stability around its borders and has a sphere of influence. Taliban be warned. Be pleased that they do not seem to hold grudges (the 'Boxers') but are far more pragmatic. The past is the past.

We in the 'West' may not like the idea of playing second fiddle in this century but if not we need to up our game considerably and not rest on historical laurels.  Either way we need to maintain a friendly relationship even if we disagree at times.

Indeed. But in the past to be expansionist a country had to be physically expansionist. Now a country, and certainly China has that chance, can expand in less physical soft-power and financial ways.

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

3 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Indeed. But in the past to be expansionist a country had to be physically expansionist. Now a country, and certainly China has that chance, can expand in less physical soft-power and financial ways.

Yes of course Purple - I was really just trying to correct this view of China as 'backward'. When some have visited me in Norwich I hate to say this but we can appear backward and hill-billies by comparison. I recall once having a visiting Chinese professor (and family) with me from a major Chinese University (think Oxford) and local people thought he was Chinese professor a the UEA!  (they loved the Cathedral and Close by the way).

In short be careful it's not us that get brainwashed. A bit of first hand experience can shatter a few myths both ways.

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

On 19/08/2021 at 14:07, Yellow Fever said:

Much of this is wrong even if I do understand where it is coming from.

First I have travelled freely in China for decades, on my own, unescorted the length and breadth of much of country in places where the world is only now just discovering. The Chinese people are as warm and welcoming  - interested in such an unusual foreigner in their midst (at times I must of been 1 in a million or 10 million), get stared at and often approached because in 'non westernized' parts.

They are not as brainwashed as you suspect - indeed prior the to pandemic anybody who walked around Norwich would have heard many a Chinese tourist. Equally there are large numbers of Chinese at the UEA - students and professors alike. The Chinese tourist RMB (or is it CNY 😉 ) is extremely important to UK tourism with local hotpots such as Bicester Village etc. destinations! Very frankly the Chinese middle class is now very wealthy by our standards and fully cognizant of the 'West. They are certainly not communist (I always say the average Chinese are 99% entrepreneurs and they work and play extremely hard). Most of my conversations with Chinese business people always come back to the cost (taxes) that that they have to pay employing people! 

What they do have is a largely benign autocracy. If as most do accept its hegemony then they'll let you get on with your life making money and having fun. Be a 'radical' in some manner challenging the party then yes there may be issues. This is not to excuse their gross human rights issues in places (i.e. the Uighurs) but just to place it in context. I wonder how many of us have wondered recently if the Taliban could do with some 'corrective' camps recently! All that said until Xi, general progress even on these issues was positive - dabbling's with local democracy even and of course the well known opening up to the world. My hope and suspicion is that Xi is just a pause, a hiccup in the general trend. 

What people need to grasp is that China is a country  of 1.4 (or is 1.6) billion people many highly educated (far far more than we have) and not backward at all. They no longer need 'us' to help develop or frankly our technology. In many fields they are already or will quickly surpass the west - space will likely be the most obvious to us in the longer term but consider your smartphone, 5G, AI, Quantum computing, nuclear and green technologies. They have huge resources and long term plans not blown off course by the vagaries of fashion or investment trends.

Historically (and luckily) China has never been a truly expansionist state - China is 'big enough' but it does want stability around its borders and has a sphere of influence. Taliban be warned. Be pleased that they do not seem to hold grudges (the 'Boxers') but are far more pragmatic. The past is the past.

We in the 'West' may not like the idea of playing second fiddle in this century but if not we need to up our game considerably and not rest on historical laurels.  Either way we need to maintain a friendly relationship even if we disagree at times.

I worked in China for nearly two years back in the nineties and I concur with your description of China. They are extremely hard working and ambitious that makes it all the more curious of how they managed to fall into communism in the first place. They are certainly an autocracy and benign I think so long as one keeps in line and conform. I witnessed a few things that were not so benign, such as police using batons against people crossing the road without waiting for the lights to change, and beggars being beaten to drive them out of city centres. I was there at the time of the one-child policy and I asked my staff what would happen if they had a child and then fell pregnant a second time. The answer was that the expectant mother would have to have an abortion and would also be sterilised at the same time to prevent a second child being born.

I think the one-child policy has been since lifted but in its place is far more surveillance technology such as facial recognition used on the street, and a social order system that punishes offenders by not allowing them to buy travel tickets or open bank accounts and so on. No doubt this will be extended over time until the state controls every activity of its citizens.

Despite this, I think China will eventually run into problems and the source will be internal rather than any external pressure from the West. Right now is probably best of times for the Chinese state, everything is moving in the right direction for them, America is on the wane, the Chinese economy grows, its influence around the world spreads, its people acquiesce politically as their personal wealth grows and living standards increase. But in one or two generations from now, the populace no longer have the personal history of dire poverty, growth rates will slow down and their income will rise to a level where they begin to self-actualise - top level of Maslow pyramid - and they will become concerned about issues such as pollution, climate change and corruption: similar to where young Hong Kongers are today. And then at that point I think China will find it very difficult to resist the internal demand for change that will inevitably arise.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Rock The Boat

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

The one-child policy was indeed lifted in China back in October 2015 and raised to two, and this year they've been trying to raise it to 3. They were hoping for a rise in the birth rate, but nope - when people are more educated and have greater freedom to enter the world of work, sprogs are less popular as particularly the women realise that women don't have to basically be incubators - and that life without kids is also grand.

Not really done much. It's still hovering around 1.7, despite some seriously heavy-duty stigma against the single and the childfree out there.

Fertility rate, total (births per woman) - China | Data (worldbank.org) 

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

On 20/08/2021 at 23:06, TheGunnShow said:

The one-child policy was indeed lifted in China back in October 2015 and raised to two, and this year they've been trying to raise it to 3. They were hoping for a rise in the birth rate, but nope - when people are more educated and have greater freedom to enter the world of work, sprogs are less popular as particularly the women realise that women don't have to basically be incubators - and that life without kids is also grand.

Not really done much. It's still hovering around 1.7, despite some seriously heavy-duty stigma against the single and the childfree out there.

Fertility rate, total (births per woman) - China | Data (worldbank.org) 

There's another interesting factoid related to education and developing countries. When youngsters go to university in low income countries, China and India are examples, the gender split is around 50% male and 50% female in STEM subjects. So that's a lot of young women training as scientists, software programmers, engineers etc. But as the GDP per head rises, the number of women studying STEM decreases and they gravitate to soft subjects like the humanities which in the west are way skewed towards female students.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

5 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

There's another interesting factoid related to education and developing countries. When youngsters go to university in low income countries, China and India are examples, the gender split is around 50% male and 50% female in STEM subjects. So that's a lot of young women training as scientists, software programmers, engineers etc. But as the GDP per head rises, the number of women studying STEM decreases and they gravitate to soft subjects like the humanities which in the west are way skewed towards female students.

I think that might be true in just engineering, but this link seems to say that for STEM in general, that whilst women are less represented, it may not be quite as dramatic as that. Looks like the researchers may more often be women than expected.

Foreign languages is definitely a women-dominated field from my experience, but men are often the engineering translators.

Gender equality in STEM is possible. These countries prove it | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)

[Van wink 2,994]

Interesting debate about China chaps, good to have posters with personal knowledge and experience 👍

[cambridgeshire canary 6,680]

Interesting that even the Taliban are happy to hold press conferences and answer questions from journalists yet anytime Biden faces journalists he runs away and refuses to answer any questions..

[Herman 9,717]

Does he have his own fridge or has he borrowed it from someone?

[Surfer 1,547]

8 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Interesting that even the Taliban are happy to hold press conferences and answer questions from journalists yet anytime Biden faces journalists he runs away and refuses to answer any questions..

That's utter b*ll*cks and you know it. If you disagree with Biden's polices and statements fair enough, but cut out the "offended" BS.

[Surfer 1,547]

Now that Joe has wrapped up one overseas war on terror, time to start a new one ... but here at home.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Surfer

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

3 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Now that Joe has wrapped up one overseas war on terror, time to start a new one ... but here at home.

 

Good. Texas seems hell-bent into turning into some kind of theocratic ****hole.

[Nuff Said 5,092]

12 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Good. Texas seems hell-bent into turning into some kind of theocratic ****hole.

I think we’ve seen what they’re aiming for on TV recently:

 

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

8 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

I think we’ve seen what they’re aiming for on TV recently:

 

Yep. Easy to be "pro-life" (in reality, pro-birth) for a group that don't make demands of you.

[Surfer 1,547]

The thing about this "law" is it was deliberately engineered to avoid any enforcement by the state. Although the legislature "passed it" it is left to Texas citizens - bounty hunters if you prefer - to snoop on their neighbors and sue people they suspect of assisting abortion - in any way - in Texas civil courts. So the Supreme Court of the US, which the GOP has been stacking with RWNJs for years just said "yeah that's interesting, go right ahead"

.....and instantly all the potential Republican candidates for President in 2024 will no ram equivalent "laws" through their legislatures... in a few weeks we may have half of America "outlawing" any abortions. 

This is the so called "third rail" of American politics, watch this space.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Surfer

[cambridgeshire canary 6,680]

So what do we make of Biden so far? Not been the best of starts

[Surfer 1,547]

12 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

So what do we make of Biden so far? Not been the best of starts

I think your question is way off base. Biden is not a king, he has a Congress and States in "partnership" to govern America. Joe Biden is doing just fine, but the Republican Party in Congress and the States has decided to undermine every policy even if that means hurting - even killing - fellow Americans. I think your question should therefore be directed towards them, as the Tories follow their lead, you will see the same in the UK.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Surfer

[horsefly 4,287]

10 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

So what do we make of Biden so far? Not been the best of starts

It's going to take a long time to shovel up all the sh*it left behind by Trump. It doesn't help that a degenerate GOP full of Trump's lackees is determined to carry on sh*tting, rather than help clear up their own mess.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,680]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

It's going to take a long time to shovel up all the sh*it left behind by Trump. It doesn't help that a degenerate GOP full of Trump's lackees is determined to carry on sh*tting, rather than help clear up their own mess.

To be fair the bad part was mostly the Afghanistan situation, which is mostly Bush and Obamas fault

[horsefly 4,287]

26 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

To be fair the bad part was mostly the Afghanistan situation, which is mostly Bush and Obamas fault

It was Trump who signed the deal with the Taliban in Feb 2020 which guaranteed that all US troops would be withdrawn by May this year (Biden at least delayed this), and saw the immediate release of 5000 Taliban fighters from jail. Biden should indeed take his share of the blame for some of the screw ups in the evacuation, but this was all pretty much inevitable once Trump had signed that deal.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

The fact is, we shouldn't have been there in the first place and the ending was never going to be good for the normal citizens of Afghanistan.

We should have finished the job properly once started.