FA resignation

[chicken 2,604]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

The story has gone predictably in that the focus has been on him using the wrong term, not the underlying issues that his opinions highlight. So it is now all either 'Greg Clarke is racist!' or 'OMG you can't say anything these days without politically correct snowflakes demanding you be fired!' when that isn't really the issue.

I don't think it has. I think this just underlines the exact issues people are striving to argue. That racism is a form of prejudice. It doesn't need someone to be in your face and hateful for it to be racist. Prejudice can be subtle, some people are prejudiced without realising because of the lack of education around history and how it wasn't until 40-50 years ago that people started challenging for equality and pointing out the inequalities.

Racism is still very alive in the modern game and sadly, despite what he may have done to tackle that, some will see what he has said and use it to suggest even he doesn't believe in the clamour for equality - from both sides of the divide.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I think the whole situation has reached a zenith since the George Floyd murder.

However, nothing has changed. Those who believe change has to happen have to, and probably, will never, convince those who don't believe change is warranted. We have had many discussions but I have yet to hear what we can do to eradicate it. Certainly making it illegal hasn't worked.

Racism is something rooted in many peoples belief and I believe is something that will take many generations to eradicate.

I do not believe in positive discrimination either for race or gender. I believe in meritocracy. And that is an area that is at the same level as racism and sexism. Those who believe they are superior because of wealth or education are equally obnoxious.

We can be heartened that as generations develop, improvements are evident. As a child of the early 50's, born and encouraged to be without prejudice, I believe as a white, heterosexual male that attitudes are changing from the days when it was not illegal let alone morally wrong to hate someone because of their gender, colour or sexuality.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

When you read his actualy quotes and consider the context they were being given in its not quite as clear cut as the media or some commentators would have you believe. Given he was in part being asked about these spevcific topics in the context of a discussion about equality in the game and what some of the challenges were. i would stress I am not arguing that he was right to use the word coloured or some of the clumsy phrases he came out with. I just dont think the guy should be demonised as I don;t think he was actually being racist and rhe "life choice" quote appears to be talking about whether people make the choise to publcially announce their sexuality not choose to be gay.

"If I look at what happens to high-profile female footballers, to high-profile coloured footballers, and the abuse they take on social media… social media is a free-for-all."

"If you go to the IT department at the FA, there’s a lot more South Asians than there are Afro-Caribbeans. They have different career interests."

"The real issue is once you run out in front of 60,000 people and you decided on Monday that you wanted to disclose your sexuality – and I would never pressure anybody to disclose their sexuality – what I would want to do is to know that anybody who runs out onto the pitch and says, ‘I’m gay. I’m proud of it and I’m happy. It’s a life choice, and I’ve made it because my life is a better place’, I’d like to believe and I do believe they would have the support of their mates in the changing room"

"I talked to a coach – and I’m not certain this is true – and said, ‘what’s the issue with goalkeepers in the women’s game?’ She said, ‘young girls, when they take up the game (aged) six, seven, eight, just don’t like having the ball kicked at them hard’, right? They prefer to kick it than have it kicked at them. We have to understand we need to look at different ways to bring women into the goalkeeper’s position."

 

 

 

[Mr Angry 1,542]

11 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

I can understand the thinking behind your explanation but I fail to see why 'people of colour' would then be acceptable. Any thoughts about that?

‘Person of colour’ puts the person first, not the colour 👍

[OldRobert 38]

BBC News item:  Black people 'twice as likely to catch Covid'.  Is that racist?  I'm confused.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

You have made some good points Jim. No he shouldn't be demonised as he was positive about the BLM movement.

Maybe his remarks were symptomatic of an Association that isn't really fit for purpose anymore. The FA needs to be revolutionised.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,421]

6 hours ago, king canary said:

The story has gone predictably in that the focus has been on him using the wrong term, not the underlying issues that his opinions highlight. So it is now all either 'Greg Clarke is racist!' or 'OMG you can't say anything these days without politically correct snowflakes demanding you be fired!' when that isn't really the issue.

The FA as an organization has a significant role to play in terms of improving the games diversity and inclusion. To move that forward you need a Chairman who understands the issues at hand. So the questions become...

• Do I trust someone to put in place a success anti-racism strategy when he doesn't seem to realise the word 'coloured' fell out of generally acceptable vernacular years ago
• If I'm an British Asian footballer or a coach working with British Asian youths do I have faith in the FA to help with programmes to make them feel included in football when he thinks that they'd rather be working in IT?
• Do I trust someone to help promote and grow the womens game when he claims 'girls don't like having the ball kicked at them hard?'
• If I'm a gay footballer thinking about coming out, do I trust I'll be supported when the Chairman of the FA refers to my sexuality as a 'lifestyle choice?'

I think the answer to all four of these is no.

 

Perfectly put KC , if I may say so. 👍

[Nuff Said 5,081]

At the end of the day, how many black managers are there in the premier and football leagues in England? How many at the FA in influential positions?

Nuff said.
 

Which BTW is why people advocate for positive discrimination, if you wait for everyone’s good intentions to change this, it will take a *very* long time.

[Bonzo 198]

Diane Abbott took enormous offence when Amber Rudd used the word "Coloured" to describe black people.

It should be noted that Abbott only a few months after her faux offence at Rudd's comment  used the word "Coloured" herself to describe a group including black people.

Ironically the most vocal complainants against Greg Clarke were white Labour MPs.

I'm not sure who is the racist here?

Is it;

A) Rudd.

B) Abbott.

C) Clarke.

D) None of them because this is all BS.   

E) Only the white people.

 

[hogesar 9,610]

5 hours ago, OldRobert said:

BBC News item:  Black people 'twice as likely to catch Covid'.  Is that racist?  I'm confused.

As long as its not a play on the stereotype that black people are faster, I don't think it is.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

At the end of the day, how many black managers are there in the premier and football leagues in England? How many at the FA in influential positions?

Nuff said.
 

Which BTW is why people advocate for positive discrimination, if you wait for everyone’s good intentions to change this, it will take a *very* long time.

I searched the internet for a reason why there are so few black managers. Apparently you need a UEFA Managerial certificate, and the proportion of, I assume ex players, black candidates is very low apparently.

Of course we are one of the few Premier League clubs to have had a black manager. I never read or heard of anyone wanting him replaced because of his colour. It was purely down to football. I met him and really wanted him to succeed. Not because he was black. But because he was a thoroughly nice man. Give me him any day over Roeder.

The records would indicate most of the black managers have been relatively unsuccessful. Campbell, Ince, Connor, Gullit, Moore had limited if no success.

That may not be all their fault of course. Circumstances beyond them could have contributed.

I still prefer meritocracy but even that is not happening. There are far too many managers, Lambert for instance, who have had limited or no success but continue to walk into the shoes of the previous unsuccessful manager.

I don't believe for one moment, that most supporters are bothered who coaches their team as long as they are good and/or successful. I think Britain has moved beyond prejudice although the small minority who still practice it will always exist.

And not just colour either. Sexuality is apparently still a problem in sport, especially football. Abuse cited as the reason for not coming out in public.

Does it happen at Carrow Road? Are there racist or obscene chants? I don't remember them even in the bad old days. 

[chicken 2,604]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

I don't believe for one moment, that most supporters are bothered who coaches their team as long as they are good and/or successful. I think Britain has moved beyond prejudice although the small minority who still practice it will always exist.

And not just colour either. Sexuality is apparently still a problem in sport, especially football. Abuse cited as the reason for not coming out in public.

Does it happen at Carrow Road? Are there racist or obscene chants? I don't remember them even in the bad old days. 

I can't agree with the first part of that statement. Mainly because there is a lot of supporting evidence to say that racially motivated crimes have increased. I'm not sure if it is a great idea to get political here but there is much evidence to say that influence and 'power' of the far right is on the increase. This is also evidenced by incidents in Norfolk and her fine city Norwich. Sad may it be, it is also true.

Not just on colour but nationality.

There have also been plenty of other incidents in recent history of racism in football as well as our society, just look at some of the responses to the BLM movement.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

42 minutes ago, chicken said:

I can't agree with the first part of that statement. Mainly because there is a lot of supporting evidence to say that racially motivated crimes have increased. I'm not sure if it is a great idea to get political here but there is much evidence to say that influence and 'power' of the far right is on the increase. This is also evidenced by incidents in Norfolk and her fine city Norwich. Sad may it be, it is also true.

Not just on colour but nationality.

There have also been plenty of other incidents in recent history of racism in football as well as our society, just look at some of the responses to the BLM movement.

I haven't seen the evidence you mention. And I haven't lived in Norwich since 1974. So I can't argue on that point.

But surely all serious crime is in the minority. And assault, however motivated, without doubt languishes a long way behind other crimes such as smoking a spliff or breaking the speed limit.

Living in Cornwall, I have been told many times to eff off back to where I come from or called Emmet. Some nasty but most just remarks. Of course there is no need for these remarks. But they are in the minority.

Living in NZ, I was called Pom. But only by the minority.

i just feel the UK is nowhere the nasty, racist nation some headlines report. BLM protests in this country were opposed by a bunch of no marks pretending to be tough but were all mouth and ignorance. The US sent out the Proud Boys with assault rifles. They were looking for a fight.

Any person who thinks they are superior because of race, colour, wealth etc are obscene. And we cannot stop them thinking like that. It will take something a lot more. But I'm not sure we are ready for the consequences of that.

[chicken 2,604]

5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I haven't seen the evidence you mention. And I haven't lived in Norwich since 1974. So I can't argue on that point.

But surely all serious crime is in the minority. And assault, however motivated, without doubt languishes a long way behind other crimes such as smoking a spliff or breaking the speed limit.

Living in Cornwall, I have been told many times to eff off back to where I come from or called Emmet. Some nasty but most just remarks. Of course there is no need for these remarks. But they are in the minority.

Living in NZ, I was called Pom. But only by the minority.

i just feel the UK is nowhere the nasty, racist nation some headlines report. BLM protests in this country were opposed by a bunch of no marks pretending to be tough but were all mouth and ignorance. The US sent out the Proud Boys with assault rifles. They were looking for a fight.

Any person who thinks they are superior because of race, colour, wealth etc are obscene. And we cannot stop them thinking like that. It will take something a lot more. But I'm not sure we are ready for the consequences of that.

Good education and restorative work puts an end to that.

Scientific research suggests that the majority of people who are influenced to be more politically right leaning are led frequently by fear and insecurity. The difficulty with politics as it is is that both ends of the spectrum don't want to meet in the middle so to speak. The US is case in point right now but we're not so different in the UK.

People voted for a ship they believed would work. We are now in the ship and it's clear the wealthy so and so's that told them the ship was fine have life belts and their own ships on hand to sit happily in. This one is now taking on water and rather than gracefully admit they were wrong or have been conned, people are still happy to see the captain speeding off into the sunset with his mistress, bald companion and his mates as the water slowly swells up above their knees...

[Rock The Boat 1,323]

9 hours ago, Mr Angry said:

‘Person of colour’ puts the person first, not the colour 👍

Thanks, that's good to know. 

Should I also use the phrase 'person of whiteness'?

[Nuff Said 5,081]

11 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Thanks, that's good to know. 

Should I also use the phrase 'person of whiteness'?

You can if you want, although I can think of a better description in your case. 😉

You seem to be looking for equity in how we address different races. The problem is that we are not starting from an equal position. You've probably not grown up in a country where there is recent history of people of your race openly being refused consideration for jobs, housing or  using services. You and your family have  probably never been abused in public for the colour of your skin, let alone attacked. You've probably never not got a job you were well qualified for without a reason, or had your application quietly shelved because you have a 'funny' name. You've probably never had graffiti on your door, or faeces or fireworks through your letter box because of the colour of your skin. You've probably never had a teacher give up on you because "your kind aren't academic".

 

If you're white and have grown up in the UK, you and your loved ones will not have not experienced this sort of continual prejudice and unspoken animosity as a constant throughout your lives (maybe with the exception of Travellers). Imagine living with this 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 52 months of every year. It wouldn't be surprising if you felt you wouldn't be ambitious and try to enter spaces where you're not expected to be, that it was too hard, the likely opposition and rejection weren't worth the prize.

 

 

We *all* have unconscious biases, black or white, male or female, young or old... We think and behave based on our experience, and our experience is of living in the country I describe above. We see few black football managers, or policemen, or politicians, and absorb the impression that these are roles that black people don't do. The same often applies to women, disabled people and others. Without a *conscious* effort to understand and counter bias, it will not change.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Nuff Said

[FenwayFrank 2,450]

3 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

maybe with the exception of Travellers

Probably best we don’t start on the traveller community 

[Nuff Said 5,081]

2 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

Probably best we don’t start on the traveller community 

Agreed, not so much a can of worms, more an oil drum.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-54888197

[Mr Angry 1,542]

13 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Thanks, that's good to know. 

Should I also use the phrase 'person of whiteness'?

If you feel that you’ve suffered prejudice because of the colour of your skin, definitely.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[Pugin 601]

19 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-54888197

 

Thanks for sharing this. I knew that 'coloured' became unacceptable in the 1960's because, extraordinarily, I can remember a conversation on the subject with my late Mum and brother when travelling to school. I can remember the location in terms of route to school, which pins it down to pre-1970. Isn't it extraordinary how some conversations just stick forever? 

Mum said very much the same as what the BBC item says - we (white people) are not 'the norm', and therefore all non-whites are not 'coloured'. That language implies that white skin is the standard and that black, caramels, coffees and all other shades are 'coloured'. Nope, we are all 'coloured'. Anglo-Saxons are generally white. Mum joked that we are actually 'a dirty pink'. 'Coloured' to describe not-white people is also the language of Empire, apartheid, segregation, and slavery. 

It's mind-blowing that Greg Clarke apparently has no appreciation of a penny which dropped for some of us over 50 years ago.

FWIW, no one can rationally say that Clarke has shown himself to be a racist. He was however guilty of using inappropriate language which was at odds with the stated policy of an organisation of which he was the public face. Time to go.

I have a nagging doubt that maybe Clarke had had enough of it all, and deliberately got his contract of employment terminated, presumably on generous terms. Another alternative explanation is that he is slipping into senility, which is no joke for any of us.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

On 12/11/2020 at 17:41, Nuff Said said:

At the end of the day, how many black managers are there in the premier and football leagues in England?

Which BTW is why people advocate for positive discrimination

How many do their coaching badges to A or Pro level? How many of those apply for managerial jobs?

If 5% of the people pursuing coaching badges to advance level were black, and 5% of job applications were from black people, would you expect to see 15% of managers being black? 

I know that in 2015 there was an article published which showed that 93.18% of people doing their UEFA A License at St Georges Park were white, which means that just under 7% of them were BAME.

Meanwhile, an article from 2018 shows that 6.5% of the 92 head coaches in English football were BAME.

In terms of how representative BAME people are in managerial jobs, it appears to be pretty fair when considering only qualified candidates. 

With the above in mind, should the onus be put on clubs here? That is where you seem to want to place it by advocating for positive discrimination in the selection process.

If you had 93% of people getting UEFA A License being white, but 15% of managers being BAME, would they not then be over-represented and wouldn't positive discrimination involve completely devaluing the achievement of those who put in serious hours on the training pitch to obtain the required licenses?

If this needs to be addressed by something proactive then the only sensible course of action is to try and encourage more BAME players to obtain coaching badges. That puts the onus not on clubs but onto the Football Association and the PFA and LMA to develop initiatives to increase the size of the available pool of talent, and dare I say it on individuals and their personal responsibility for their own career paths.

Here's some 2018 data for BAME applications for academy coaching roles:

As you can see, 48% of applicants did not have the required qualifications.

You have to accept that there are issues that go way beyond basic discrimination. I'm sure it exists. I quite like the idea of being a lawyer, but that's not going to happen because I didn't study law. What I wouldn't do is apply for a job as a lawyer.

184 out of 2064 applicants for 200 jobs were BAME, but only 96 of those had the required qualifications.

Edited November 14, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[Well b back 3,180]

I have a nagging doubt that maybe Clarke had had enough of it all, and deliberately got his contract of employment terminated, presumably on generous terms. Another alternative explanation is that he is slipping into senility, which is no joke for any of us.

I doubt it. 
He held the position of Vice President in FIFA and a position in UEFA which he has now resigned from as well. He thought he could carry those on. Just shows how out of touch he is.

[paul moy 235]

On 12/11/2020 at 22:08, keelansgrandad said:

I haven't seen the evidence you mention. And I haven't lived in Norwich since 1974. So I can't argue on that point.

But surely all serious crime is in the minority. And assault, however motivated, without doubt languishes a long way behind other crimes such as smoking a spliff or breaking the speed limit.

Living in Cornwall, I have been told many times to eff off back to where I come from or called Emmet. Some nasty but most just remarks. Of course there is no need for these remarks. But they are in the minority.

Living in NZ, I was called Pom. But only by the minority.

i just feel the UK is nowhere the nasty, racist nation some headlines report. BLM protests in this country were opposed by a bunch of no marks pretending to be tough but were all mouth and ignorance. The US sent out the Proud Boys with assault rifles. They were looking for a fight.

Any person who thinks they are superior because of race, colour, wealth etc are obscene. And we cannot stop them thinking like that. It will take something a lot more. But I'm not sure we are ready for the consequences of that.

Racism exists everywhere.  Is calling me a 'white priveleged male' racist, as I was in Africa.  I was even kicked off a bus by a  black policeman because he did not like the colour of my face. 

[Nuff Said 5,081]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

How many do their coaching badges to A or Pro level? How many of those apply for managerial jobs?

If 5% of the people pursuing coaching badges to advance level were black, and 5% of job applications were from black people, would you expect to see 15% of managers being black? 

I know that in 2015 there was an article published which showed that 93.18% of people doing their UEFA A License at St Georges Park were white, which means that just under 7% of them were BAME.

Meanwhile, an article from 2018 shows that 6.5% of the 92 head coaches in English football were BAME.

In terms of how representative BAME people are in managerial jobs, it appears to be pretty fair when considering only qualified candidates. 

With the above in mind, should the onus be put on clubs here? That is where you seem to want to place it by advocating for positive discrimination in the selection process.

If you had 93% of people getting UEFA A License being white, but 15% of managers being BAME, would they not then be over-represented and wouldn't positive discrimination involve completely devaluing the achievement of those who put in serious hours on the training pitch to obtain the required licenses?

If this needs to be addressed by something proactive then the only sensible course of action is to try and encourage more BAME players to obtain coaching badges. That puts the onus not on clubs but onto the Football Association and the PFA and LMA to develop initiatives to increase the size of the available pool of talent, and dare I say it on individuals and their personal responsibility for their own career paths.

Here's some 2018 data for BAME applications for academy coaching roles:

As you can see, 48% of applicants did not have the required qualifications.

You have to accept that there are issues that go way beyond basic discrimination. I'm sure it exists. I quite like the idea of being a lawyer, but that's not going to happen because I didn't study law. What I wouldn't do is apply for a job as a lawyer.

184 out of 2064 applicants for 200 jobs were BAME, but only 96 of those had the required qualifications.

Given the number of BAME players in the professional game, I would expect far more than 6.5% in management roles. A key question is why don’t more do the training to become qualified? 

Things are changing, but they are changing very slowly. We can wait for the situation to evolve naturally, or we can tip the balance in the favour of those who previous had things stacked against them - which in the longer term is actually only levelling things out. I personally believe that at minimum we should ensure BAME candidates should be considered fairly given that they still have any number of additional hurdles presented, whether visible or not. 

“When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

45 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Given the number of BAME players in the professional game, I would expect far more than 6.5% in management roles. A key question is why don’t more do the training to become qualified? 

Things are changing, but they are changing very slowly. We can wait for the situation to evolve naturally, or we can tip the balance in the favour of those who previous had things stacked against them - which in the longer term is actually only levelling things out. I personally believe that at minimum we should ensure BAME candidates should be considered fairly given that they still have any number of additional hurdles presented, whether visible or not. 

“When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”

RE: my red bold bit, that's exactly what the point of my entire post was. You were putting the onus on clubs by advocating for positive discrimination, when I was pointing out that the problem doesn't begin at that stage - it starts at the beginning. Not enough are enrolling onto coaching courses.

RE: Your giant size 20 bold bit. Why are you making the assumption that I come from a position of privilege. Even if I were white, I could be a traveler, or come out of the care system, you see a literate Norwich fan and assume they are white and privileged? And why were you talking only about black managers, when BAME is surely more relevant, as if you fix the problem for black managers you may still have a problem for Asian managers, etc. I wouldn't actually consider black people to be from the most oppressed ethnic groups in Europe, that's definitely the Roma people. 

My data was provided to show that the problem lies at a much earlier stage that the recruitment process. A club is well within its rights to ask for Level 4 coaching certificates, as if you don't have them special dispensation is required and they are needed to be obtained within a timeframe, they are paying you to manage a football team not to be paid to  be absent from your role as you are rushing to do your coaching badges at St Georges Park on company time.  

It is far too simplistic to look at the proportion of players that are BAME and then look at the proportion of managers. You'd need to know how many aspire to be managers, how many are prepared to do their stint as a reserve or academy manager to gain experience, and how many obtain the necessary qualifications.

If 93% of people doing Level 4 at St. Georges Park are white, and 93.5% of professional managers are white, what does that tell you? It tells you that if you want more BAME managers you need more BAME people gaining Level 4 coaching qualifications. That's the power of simple deduction, its a shame you took your own white privilege for granted (hey, if you can be presumptuous then so can I) and didn't use it to gain an education so you could think more objectively about these issues. Straight to blaming clubs and advocating forcing them to accept unqualified candidates to satisfy arbitrary quotas, rather than identifying the real problem. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[hogesar 9,610]

@TeemuVanBasten Just to say your last couple of posts have been very good here and I agree in general. 

Fundamentally the problem starts that not enough BAME people are getting the qualifications. Then there's how many are applying.

The first aspect is how many are actually trying to get the qualifications. How many are passing and failing? Why are they failing? Do they need extra support? If so, why?

I dont think football clubs in the modern era GENERALLY have a problem employing a black manager. If youre good, you get a job. Heck, Paul Ince regularly failed but continued to get employed. 

If we can get more BAME candidates qualified and applying it would be a much bigger step than simply accusing football clubs of systematic racism.

[Nuff Said 5,081]

3 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

RE: my red bold bit, that's exactly what the point of my entire post was. You were putting the onus on clubs by advocating for positive discrimination, when I was pointing out that the problem doesn't begin at that stage - it starts at the beginning. Not enough are enrolling onto coaching courses.

RE: Your giant size 20 bold bit. Why are you making the assumption that I come from a position of privilege. Even if I were white, I could be a traveler, or come out of the care system, you see a literate Norwich fan and assume they are white and privileged? And why were you talking only about black managers, when BAME is surely more relevant, as if you fix the problem for black managers you may still have a problem for Asian managers, etc. I wouldn't actually consider black people to be from the most oppressed ethnic groups in Europe, that's definitely the Roma people. 

My data was provided to show that the problem lies at a much earlier stage that the recruitment process. A club is well within its rights to ask for Level 4 coaching certificates, as if you don't have them special dispensation is required and they are needed to be obtained within a timeframe, they are paying you to manage a football team not to be paid to  be absent from your role as you are rushing to do your coaching badges at St Georges Park on company time.  

It is far too simplistic to look at the proportion of players that are BAME and then look at the proportion of managers. You'd need to know how many aspire to be managers, how many are prepared to do their stint as a reserve or academy manager to gain experience, and how many obtain the necessary qualifications.

If 93% of people doing Level 4 at St. Georges Park are white, and 93.5% of professional managers are white, what does that tell you? It tells you that if you want more BAME managers you need more BAME people gaining Level 4 coaching qualifications. That's the power of simple deduction, its a shame you took your own white privilege for granted (hey, if you can be presumptuous then so can I) and didn't use it to gain an education so you could think more objectively about these issues. Straight to blaming clubs and advocating forcing them to accept unqualified candidates to satisfy arbitrary quotas, rather than identifying the real problem. 

Hang on mate, if anyone is jumping to assumptions, it’s you.

 

I didn’t say I support positive discrimination for football managers. As it happens, I do, but what I said was that under-representation, in this case of football managers, is why people advocate for positive discrimination.

I didn’t assume you come from a position of privilege. The quote at the end of my post (which was copied and pasted from another website which is why it looks like that) says *when* you come from a position of privilege, not “you come from a position of privilege“. And to me at least “you” is used here in the general sense, as in “when one comes from a position of privilege”. I think it’s a very valid point to make, but it’s a quote so I wasn’t going to rewrite it just in case you misunderstood what it says.

My point is that good intentions are not enough, which we’re violently agreeing about. If you want an argument about using black as shorthand for BAME, you’ll have to find someone else. There are bigger battles to spend my energy on.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

57 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I didn’t say I support positive discrimination for football managers. As it happens, I do

If 93% of people qualifying with Level 4 coaching qualifications are white, then 93% of the people getting high level coaching jobs should be white. The data I've provided has shown you very clearly that the discrimination isn't there, at least in a broader industry sense (that's not to say that it doesn't exist at all), the data suggests that there isn't a significant problem at all (well its 0.5% discrepancy, so a relatively minor one).

Otherwise where do all these quotas stop. Do we then lower the academic standards required to become brain surgeons, if 95% of them are white? 

The onus isn't the clubs, the PFA who take a slice of the money that BAME footballers earn throughout their careers should be funding initiatives to encourage more BAME people through to the final level of coaching badges.

Then, when 15% of people completing Level 4 Quals are BAME we can look at clubs if its still only 7% of jobs going to BAME candidates and start talking about institutional racism and advocating meddling in the selection process.

How would you implement positive discrimination? Enlighten us, I can't imagine that being feasible, you tell a specific club their chosen candidate has to be BAME to help the Football League's annual statistics? So you are given one club a choice between 5 applicants, but some other club the choice between 30 applicants? Looks like you are throwing out ideas which you think just make good soundbites but with no real idea how you would implement them, this one has no chance of being practically feasible in the real world.

 

57 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

If you want an argument about using black as shorthand for BAME, you’ll have to find someone else. 

The 'A' in BAME means Asian. It makes zero sense for you only to talk about people of African or Caribbean heritage, whilst ignoring the Asian population, so I will make the distinction.... black simply isn't shorthand for BAME, so yes we should have that argument. You can't start a debate about racial equality and then start categorising Chinese and Indian people as 'black'.

What happens when you have enough black managers, you then move to Asian and other ethnic minorities? Or you are only worried about the 'B' and not the 'AME' in your quest for equality?

Edited November 14, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten