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3 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Have to say Gibson has been astonishingly unlucky with two ridiculous yellow cards two games running.....I mean, we played on happily for several passes before the ref suddenly decided it was a foul and a card -awful reffing, letting their player’s acting determine his decision.

Is it just me or do the referees at this level feel miles away from premier league refs? 

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24 minutes ago, Big O said:

Is it just me or do the referees at this level feel miles away from premier league refs? 

Considering they don't even have the pressure of fans in the stadium you still see them cave in to any sort of verbal pressure from staff on sidelines to player appeals. Appallingly bad last two games.

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38 minutes ago, Big O said:

Is it just me or do the referees at this level feel miles away from premier league refs? 

The worrying thing is it makes VAR feel not quite so bad - and it *was* awful.

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Ironically I think you need VAR more in the Championship, the refs are that poor. Appalling standard of refereeing it has to be said.

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1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Did you actually watch the game, or did you just look at the stats? 

Brentford were by far the better team. 

No they weren’t. Utter nonsense. 

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I think they were on top between 30-75 minutes and therefore a draw is probably a fair result.

Our opening half hour was impressive and we were clearly more 'at it' in the last quarter if not being particularly coherent.  We were lucky with the deflection but we had probably earned it. 

I did think Brentford was an impressive team and I hope they do well this season.

 

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11 hours ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, I think so. Weve had the obvious transfer window sagas as well as integrating new players and despite that, we're top of the league for possession (a good indicator for 'controlling' a game in general) and towards the top for creating chances.

That there's been a couple of individual mistakes or whatever doesn't take away from the fact that generally yeah, we have controlled games.

Oh, and we are like 4th. That's despite the ridiculous Derby result which will likely never happen again this season with similar possession and shot statistics.

I don't think possession = control in any meaningful sense. We saw in Farke's first season teams were more than happy to let us dominate the ball as we did it in a generally unthreatening manner. Similarly our game last night was never really 'controlled' by us we just had a lot of the ball.

2020-10-27-brentford-norwich.png?w=1000&h=

Overall my viewpoint is if we keep playing like this we're not going up. We've got 4 wins this season, all against teams who currently sit bottom half, all by a single goal, with two of them coming when the opposition was reduced to 10 men. At no point this season have we held a 2 goal lead in a game. This is what I mean about now being in control of games- we're always one defensive mistake or bit of class away from giving up the points. 

Wycombe is a great example- we absolutely should have been out of sight in that game but a stupid defensive error and the general knock to the teams confidence meant we suddenly found ourselves struggling against a team that had lost its previous 6 games 14-1.

On the flip side we've also managed to stay in games which has allowed us to claw back late points. But last night we were reliant on two excellent saves by Krul for that deflected shot to mean anything. At some point that luck runs out.

What I want to see is us actually getting ahead in games and building a lead, not having to hope Mario pulls a worldy out of the bag in the 95th minute. 

Edited by king canary
added xg graph for reference

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10 hours ago, Big O said:

Is it just me or do the referees at this level feel miles away from premier league refs? 

Pretty sure my local pubs charity match had a better referee during their match and he was Big Dave

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43 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think possession = control in any meaningful sense. We saw in Farke's first season teams were more than happy to let us dominate the ball as we did it in a generally unthreatening manner. Similarly our game last night was never really 'controlled' by us we just had a lot of the ball.

2020-10-27-brentford-norwich.png?w=1000&h=

Overall my viewpoint is if we keep playing like this we're not going up. We've got 4 wins this season, all against teams who currently sit bottom half, all by a single goal, with two of them coming when the opposition was reduced to 10 men. At no point this season have we held a 2 goal lead in a game. This is what I mean about now being in control of games- we're always one defensive mistake or bit of class away from giving up the points. 

Wycombe is a great example- we absolutely should have been out of sight in that game but a stupid defensive error and the general knock to the teams confidence meant we suddenly found ourselves struggling against a team that had lost its previous 6 games 14-1.

On the flip side we've also managed to stay in games which has allowed us to claw back late points. But last night we were reliant on two excellent saves by Krul for that deflected shot to mean anything. At some point that luck runs out.

What I want to see is us actually getting ahead in games and building a lead, not having to hope Mario pulls a worldy out of the bag in the 95th minute. 

The problem here King, is using the 'relying on Krul on two excellent saves' is no different to saying if Buendia took that early chance where he was through, or Hanley scored his free header, the game could have been completely different.

I think we're generally improving in areas in every game with the caveat of the occasional defensive mistake - although we look bettert than how we did at the start of the season from a defensive point of view.

If we continue on the same trajectory playing the same style i'm very confident of automatic promotion.

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And of course, that Wycombe game we didn't take our early chances but that wasn't a performance problem. To then see them get a point against another promotion-favourite in Watford suggests the result was a good one - and the performance not bad either.

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I just find it staggering the number of our fans who seem determined to find any opportunity to label us a "mid table side at best" or praise Brentford and slag us off despite the fact it was a pretty even game which i felt we shaded if anything.

Away from home at a promotion rival and we had 56% possession to their 44% and 14 shots at goal to their 13. The big problem (as it has been all season) is that only 3 of those 14 were on target (and I would say with the positions we get into we could easily have had 20+ shots if we were more willing to pull the trigger). However, there won;t be many teams that go to Brentford and dominate the ball in the way we did at times. We are really not that far off and we have the quality of player in our squad to go on a serious run if we can just find our mojo up front in the weeks to come. 

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12 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

I watched it, we absolutely did not deserve it. No idea where the shots on target came from, their keeper didn't make a save. Buendia's effort was deflected by a defender and our goal was a shot heading for the corner flag. 

 

Krul had to make three great saves, one world class. 

Mugged them. But we've been on the receiving end enough times so I'll take it. 

Completely disagree. I think people see what they are determined to see sometimes. In terms fo the quality of chances yes they had 3 good ones to our two and Krul had to make a couple of decent saves but in terms of everything else we had the edge in that game.

Must say though I wish we'd gone for Toney in the summer as our big striker option.

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1 hour ago, king canary said:

I don't think possession = control in any meaningful sense. We saw in Farke's first season teams were more than happy to let us dominate the ball as we did it in a generally unthreatening manner. Similarly our game last night was never really 'controlled' by us we just had a lot of the ball.

2020-10-27-brentford-norwich.png?w=1000&h=

Overall my viewpoint is if we keep playing like this we're not going up. We've got 4 wins this season, all against teams who currently sit bottom half, all by a single goal, with two of them coming when the opposition was reduced to 10 men. At no point this season have we held a 2 goal lead in a game. This is what I mean about now being in control of games- we're always one defensive mistake or bit of class away from giving up the points. 

Wycombe is a great example- we absolutely should have been out of sight in that game but a stupid defensive error and the general knock to the teams confidence meant we suddenly found ourselves struggling against a team that had lost its previous 6 games 14-1.

On the flip side we've also managed to stay in games which has allowed us to claw back late points. But last night we were reliant on two excellent saves by Krul for that deflected shot to mean anything. At some point that luck runs out.

What I want to see is us actually getting ahead in games and building a lead, not having to hope Mario pulls a worldy out of the bag in the 95th minute. 

They definitely had 3 good chances to our 2 but I don;t think Xg fully tells the tale either because we are consistently getting in great positions and not shooting or not crossing it when we should do so which I assume then means those situations do not count as a chance. Even so we still had 14 shots to their 13 but we quite easily could have had 20 attenmpts at goals were we more direct/willing to have a go in the final third. Thats what we need to do because when you have shots things like deflections or rebounds can happen. We need to stop trying to walk it in. If we can do that and stop doing these stupid diagonal chiped passes from Krul to the fullbacks that seem to contribute to half the chances we concede then we should be in business. 

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18 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I just find it staggering the number of our fans who seem determined to find any opportunity to label us a "mid table side at best" or praise Brentford and slag us off despite the fact it was a pretty even game which i felt we shaded if anything.

Away from home at a promotion rival and we had 56% possession to their 44% and 14 shots at goal to their 13. The big problem (as it has been all season) is that only 3 of those 14 were on target (and I would say with the positions we get into we could easily have had 20+ shots if we were more willing to pull the trigger). However, there won;t be many teams that go to Brentford and dominate the ball in the way we did at times. We are really not that far off and we have the quality of player in our squad to go on a serious run if we can just find our mojo up front in the weeks to come. 

This feels like an extremely simplistic way of looking at the game- more possession and more shots = better team? Not for me Clive.

Lots of our shots were blocked quite easily and lots of our possession was in relatively harmless areas of the pitch. For example we played 526 passes to their 405 yet only played 13 more passes in the final third than them- suggesting we played it around a lot in our half but didn't actually do much more in the areas that matter.

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17 minutes ago, king canary said:

This feels like an extremely simplistic way of looking at the game- more possession and more shots = better team? Not for me Clive.

Lots of our shots were blocked quite easily and lots of our possession was in relatively harmless areas of the pitch. For example we played 526 passes to their 405 yet only played 13 more passes in the final third than them- suggesting we played it around a lot in our half but didn't actually do much more in the areas that matter.

Don;t agree. They had 3 good chances but aside from those I didn;t real feel we were under pressure at all aside from the ten minutes spell after their goal.

Emi scores that chance after 15 mins (he really has to score that) and I think we would have gone on to win that game comfortably.

As it was i think a draw was a fair result. i'm not trying to claim we dominated them but we were away at a decent side and I think got a deserved points out of it without (again) being at our fluent best. I just don;t see where the "Brentford were by far the batter team" comments are coming from. Yes they had 3 clear cut chances to our 2 but thats because we are not quite clicking in the final third (or indeed from attacking set pieces) at the moment and that is holding us back but we do know that these players can do it and I am confident it will come and when it does then the confidence will flow and we will as a result be more direct in attack as well. 

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1 hour ago, king canary said:

I don't think possession = control in any meaningful sense. We saw in Farke's first season teams were more than happy to let us dominate the ball as we did it in a generally unthreatening manner. Similarly our game last night was never really 'controlled' by us we just had a lot of the ball.

2020-10-27-brentford-norwich.png?w=1000&h=

Overall my viewpoint is if we keep playing like this we're not going up. We've got 4 wins this season, all against teams who currently sit bottom half, all by a single goal, with two of them coming when the opposition was reduced to 10 men. At no point this season have we held a 2 goal lead in a game. This is what I mean about now being in control of games- we're always one defensive mistake or bit of class away from giving up the points. 

Wycombe is a great example- we absolutely should have been out of sight in that game but a stupid defensive error and the general knock to the teams confidence meant we suddenly found ourselves struggling against a team that had lost its previous 6 games 14-1.

On the flip side we've also managed to stay in games which has allowed us to claw back late points. But last night we were reliant on two excellent saves by Krul for that deflected shot to mean anything. At some point that luck runs out.

What I want to see is us actually getting ahead in games and building a lead, not having to hope Mario pulls a worldy out of the bag in the 95th minute. 

Do agree with quite a lot of this. Our performances have definitely been a mixed bag so far this season, with nearly as many flaws in our play as there have been positives. I certainly thought we were very fortunate to draw last night but am pleased to see plenty of our posters (and indeed Brentford fans) suggest that the result was correct.

I do expect also that we will improve, things are only just getting started after all. I think our squad was particularly hampered by the transfer window and injuries; with Buendia and Cantwell in and out of the team for various reasons, plus Dowell, Hernandez and Zimmerman all our (Quintilla was also definitely missed last night). Maybe things therefore haven't quite settled quite as well as we would've liked 8 games in.

But if you were to look at our performances in the 18/19 season. I don't think they were massively dissimilar. We didn't beat a side by more than 1 goal until November.  

Of course I know the expectations have changed since then, but that doesn't mean we can suddenly flick a switch and be a championship winning side. The fact remains that we had a slow start to our last championship campaign - and that turned out pretty great. If this team - which on paper I think is stronger - can show a similar trajectory then we'll be right up there.

Overall we need time and I think our performances have generally been on the upturn so far. The fact we are still in the mix without playing anywhere near our best is a good sign.

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Some really interesting comments on this thread. Perception is a funny thing. I thought we got a lucky point in the end and that Brentford were much more fluent than us - they then conceded the initiative by taking off Da Silva who was bossing the midfield and bringing on Canos, who was awful, so we were suddenly 10 yards further up the field when we went to 3 at the back and ultimately that brought the space and pressure for the equaliser. Fact is though that Raya didn't make a save - his effort at trying to reach Maclean's shot was like going down in instalments, he was so wrong footed.

But of course Emi created and missed the best chance we had (again). These will eventually start to go in surely?

We didn't compete in the middle (again) where Rupp was frequently on his own. Skipp may have started the season well but he's lost his way since and is now being almost completely bypassed. Maclean for him on Satrurday I suspect. 

And whilst we kept three of our "crown jewels" I'm not sure any of them actually qualify for that sobriquet anymore. Aarons is producing regular 6 out of 10 scores, which is all right;  Buendia an occasional 7 and Cantwell hasn't got above a 5 yet. All three of them should by now be producing regular 8s in this league.

The tactic of Krul kicking wide to the full backs to bypass the press isn't working so I hope that changes. The criticism by some of Sorensen is just ignorance. I thought he did OK.

We missed Idah last night - his pace and directness would have been very useful; and I think we all saw that Vrancic isn't the answer when starting.

Clearly we are still very much a work in progress, and Brentford on that showing are probably further along than we are. But I still think we are on the right track and the number of options available in the squad and the depth of the squad despite the numerous injuries will be telling. Other teams will get multiple injuries too because this season is relentless. Picking up points away from home will be the difference between top 2 and top 6.

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2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

I just find it staggering the number of our fans who seem determined to find any opportunity to label us a "mid table side at best" or praise Brentford and slag us off despite the fact it was a pretty even game which i felt we shaded if anything.

Away from home at a promotion rival and we had 56% possession to their 44% and 14 shots at goal to their 13. The big problem (as it has been all season) is that only 3 of those 14 were on target (and I would say with the positions we get into we could easily have had 20+ shots if we were more willing to pull the trigger). However, there won;t be many teams that go to Brentford and dominate the ball in the way we did at times. We are really not that far off and we have the quality of player in our squad to go on a serious run if we can just find our mojo up front in the weeks to come. 

Surely they haven’t counted McLeans as on target 😂

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I think we were pretty lucky to get out with a point last night, however, for me, the performance was probably our best this season. I never felt we looked completely outmatched by one of the better sides in the league. I was far more concerned after our 3 previous wins, especially Rotherham and Wycombe, where I think we were exceptionally lucky to come away with 2 wins. 

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I think Farkeball requires a very high level of understanding between the players.  In his first season it just wasn't there.  In 18/19, we started slowly and the cohesion came gradually with some key changes to the starting lineup.  It built gradually then suddenly clicked - for me it was the away game at Sheffield Wednesday which I think was around this time of year when I began to feel something special was building, and it really became clear with the epic comeback against Millwall at home, which I think was remembrance weekend ? 

 

We were always fragile at the back but that cohesion and fluency stayed with us for the rest of the season and into the first part of the Prem season - it was then eroded by changes in personnel and the fact that many mid/lower table Prem teams are well versed at stopping the other side playing the way they want, have a level of physicality/athleticism especially in midfield which is a step up from the Champs, and are simply more clinical than Champs teams, which meant we had a lot of games where we looked pretty good but lost by the odd goal.

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We can and will get better. At this stage results are all that matters. Old adage says that picking up results when not playing well is a positive thing. Too many doomsayers on here. Get behind the team and support them through thick and thin. We are the best footballing side in this league and that will eventually lead us back to the wonderful world of VAR

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34 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

And whilst we kept three of our "crown jewels" I'm not sure any of them actually qualify for that sobriquet anymore. Aarons is producing regular 6 out of 10 scores, which is all right;  Buendia an occasional 7 and Cantwell hasn't got above a 5 yet. All three of them should by now be producing regular 8s in this league.

Agree with all of your post but this bit;

Cantwell was very involved against Birmingham and again contributed fairly well against Wycombe. Lots of people's MOTM for the Birmingham game (despite the fact he could've scored 4 goals and managed none...). However, I would also say that his performance was worryingly poor last night. Not sure what happened.

But it is still early doors for Cantwell / Buendia as they've only just been given a run of games. I think they will improve but there have been plenty of good signs from both IMO.

On Aarons, I'd say he has been one of our better players so far this season overall, he didn't have the best game last night but even so look how much more involved he was than his opposite sided players (i.e. Sorenson first half and then Placheta in the latter stages).

I think people have been a bit overly harsh on some of their performances at times this season, there certainly seems to be a lot more resting on their shoulders after all the hype over the summer!

Separately, I think I also wouldn't mind Skipp being dropped, believe we would look most solid with a Tettey and Rupp combination. Rupp again was very good last night. He looks so much more confident and composed in possession.

Edited by Hank shoots Skyler

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Brentford are a capable & well-drilled side with an in-form targetman. We had our centre-back pairing still finding their feet, an out-of-position debutante in at LB, Skipp looking a bit jaded in the engine room, an unfit Cantwell struggling, Placheta playing deep to support Sorensen & the Idah option unavailable. Still squeezed a point out of it. A good point away from home with room for improvement. Well done lads! 👍👍

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4 hours ago, king canary said:

I don't think possession = control in any meaningful sense. We saw in Farke's first season teams were more than happy to let us dominate the ball as we did it in a generally unthreatening manner. Similarly our game last night was never really 'controlled' by us we just had a lot of the ball.

2020-10-27-brentford-norwich.png?w=1000&h=

Overall my viewpoint is if we keep playing like this we're not going up. We've got 4 wins this season, all against teams who currently sit bottom half, all by a single goal, with two of them coming when the opposition was reduced to 10 men. At no point this season have we held a 2 goal lead in a game. This is what I mean about now being in control of games- we're always one defensive mistake or bit of class away from giving up the points. 

Wycombe is a great example- we absolutely should have been out of sight in that game but a stupid defensive error and the general knock to the teams confidence meant we suddenly found ourselves struggling against a team that had lost its previous 6 games 14-1.

On the flip side we've also managed to stay in games which has allowed us to claw back late points. But last night we were reliant on two excellent saves by Krul for that deflected shot to mean anything. At some point that luck runs out.

What I want to see is us actually getting ahead in games and building a lead, not having to hope Mario pulls a worldy out of the bag in the 95th minute. 

A couple of thoughts:

 

  1. Your xG chart seems to show Toney's xG went *up* when he went off. How does that work?
  2. I don't understand saying that relying on excellent saves from Krul makes us lucky. Marshall pulled out two amazing saves when we played Derby, and I think there has been at least one excellent save in most games so far. Weren't we unlucky then? Surely keepers saving well is just like any other player having a good game?

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16 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

A couple of thoughts:

 

  1. Your xG chart seems to show Toney's xG went *up* when he went off. How does that work?
  2. I don't understand saying that relying on excellent saves from Krul makes us lucky. Marshall pulled out two amazing saves when we played Derby, and I think there has been at least one excellent save in most games so far. Weren't we unlucky then? Surely keepers saving well is just like any other player having a good game?

The red and yellow bars represent the xG for the whole team. Toney had 0.6 xG out of a total of 1.8 for Brentford. Additionally, the point about a keeper making a great save is fair, and having a better than average one can do wonders. The point of xG though is to say what was the usual outcome of the shot, regardless of whether it went in or not. Krul could stop some shots and make us outperform our xG, but chances are it wont last forever.

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8 minutes ago, repman said:

The red and yellow bars represent the xG for the whole team. Toney had 0.6 xG out of a total of 1.8 for Brentford. Additionally, the point about a keeper making a great save is fair, and having a better than average one can do wonders. The point of xG though is to say what was the usual outcome of the shot, regardless of whether it went in or not. Krul could stop some shots and make us outperform our xG, but chances are it wont last forever.

 Ok, fair enough, I didn't look closely enough at the graph. What I thought was the legend on the right was a separate bar graph (on a side note, I am confused by the reference to Sorensen though - was his xG the highest in the team?? Seems unlikely).

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For moments in that match (the first 20 or so) we looked very accomplished and played some great balls. Had Emi's chance been taken we may have really gained control because Brentford were hit by our confidence in that first quarter. With that miss, Brentford started to play more but even then were gifted a goal  resulting from a lazy Todd flick (he does these 2 or 3 times a match, at least 1 too many in my book...I recall Worthington talk scathingly about Bentley's "farts and flicks" all those years ago). 

Even when we were behind, Hanley missed the golden chance of the game. So frustrating that we cannot buy a goal with a header from a centre half (who must practice headers so often). Very frustrating. Frustration levels are high for this team (the sonyc household yelled in exasperation every few minutes). But...there is something about us. We look a top 6 team but certainly not an automatic top 2 team. I've not seen Reading yet in any long watch (and they were my tip for the automatics in Diane's thread...based only on the end of the last season. I may prove to be wrong of course but at the moment they have started so well and their position is no fluke, it can't be can it?).

Can we start to become more penetrative in the next 5 or 6 games? Will we start to convert our undoubted ability to keep possession (the best in the league?). Big questions. As yet though I don't see the kind of team that looks nailed on for being champions. It would be unfair anyway as the team are trying to get used to each other and also get that winning habit back. These late goals show we have the belief though. The teams who do well every season score late. It's a good indicator.

Edited by sonyc

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It seems that there are two broad perspectives.

Firstly that we are not going to improve greatly and that that we are an example of the King's (Canary!) New Clothes. 

Secondly that it is all going to gel and promotion beckons.

Both look valid at this stage although we are 5th. 

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3 minutes ago, The Bristol Nest said:

It seems that there are two broad perspectives.

Firstly that we are not going to improve greatly and that that we are an example of the King's (Canary!) New Clothes. 

Secondly that it is all going to gel and promotion beckons.

Both look valid at this stage although we are 5th. 

Just to clarify- I'm not saying we won't get better. Just that I think we need to to be serious promotion contenders.

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