Buendia - Talented but frustrating

[BigFish 1,986]

2 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Don’t buy that At all.   He could play No. 10 and never shoot - he will still create many more goal scoring opportunities than we create now.    
In any event, he would likely have more opportunities to shoot and likely gain confidence once one or two hit the target.   

That wouldn't make the team better

[ged in the onion bag 855]

4 minutes ago, BigFish said:

.... and reluctance or inability to do the dirty work.

Face it, he was clearly on the market during the window and the price was out there and no one was really interested. 

Don’t think that’s correct, he’s been our no.1 for ball recovery / tackles won the past two seasons hasn’t he.

He seems to have mentality flaws and I’m surprised Farke / himself haven’t been able to sort them out as it should be simple enough...simply playing with a smile for one would help!    Think there would have been a lot of interest at about £15-£20m but Clubs knew we wanted more, didn’t need to negotiate and the pandemic also had an effect.    Glad we’ve still got him.   

[ged in the onion bag 855]

10 minutes ago, BigFish said:

That wouldn't make the team better

Why?

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

13 hours ago, Jerrykerry said:

If he was as good as you think he would be consistent. 

You can't argue on the basis of an oxymoron. 

Nobody wants to buy him. 

How many goals and assists has he had in past 20 games? 

He's petulant, and a one season wonder, based on the reality of the stats. 

 

He created an extremely high amount of chances for a very poor premiership team. The guy cannot win games alone! 

[hogesar 9,658]

14 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Are we actually disagreeing on something, that's rare!     

I'm not saying he doesn't do the wide role well.... if I were Aarons, I would be more than happy with Emi in front of me..... unfortunately for the team however, it means he's not able to be in areas where he can hurt the opposition when we recover possession.   Easier in the EFL than the EPL as the evidence shows of course.    

I agree our 3 interchange but it is usual for Emi and Todd to be wide when defending, don't think anyone can deny that so they don't interchange out of possession.    I disagree completely it gives him more licence to find space... without the defensive duties, he can go where he likes more often and pull defenders out of position because they will sure be more concerned about him than a anyone else we have and that could naturally create more space for Pukki!   

Playing more central and forward, we might see more of his shooting capability (the goal v Swansea with his weak wand) for example... 

Don't get me wrong, you could well be right and it would be interesting to see it in a competitive match. I just think Emi benefits from the extra space afforded to him in that slightly wider position - it always feels like his best through-balls to pukki come from him getting into that gap between midfield and full back, drifting inside whilst Pukki makes his moves.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

He's put about 8 key passes or through balls in to the forwards in the last two games which they should have done a lot better with. Yes he still flings his hands up in frustration and doesn;t track back as quickly as he should at times which needs resolving but had our strikers been more clinical he would have half a dozen assists already. 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

He's put about 8 key passes or through balls in to the forwards in the last two games which they should have done a lot better with. Yes he still flings his hands up in frustration and doesn;t track back as quickly as he should at times which needs resolving but had our strikers been more clinical he would have half a dozen assists already. 

Agree with this and like I said, in No 10 role someone else would be doing the tracking back!

[ged in the onion bag 855]

26 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Don't get me wrong, you could well be right and it would be interesting to see it in a competitive match. I just think Emi benefits from the extra space afforded to him in that slightly wider position - it always feels like his best through-balls to pukki come from him getting into that gap between midfield and full back, drifting inside whilst Pukki makes his moves.

Can’t argue with the quality of his through balls from deeper, he’s our most creative player by far..... re the space, unless he gets that role, suppose we won’t know. 

The issue would then be who plays in that wider deeper role and will they protect Aaron’s enough...(would be Hernandez or Platcheta) but think we would score more and get more consistency from Emi in that forward role. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by ged in the onion bag

[BigFish 1,986]

2 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Why?

Simple, because as you describe it, with Buendia wandering about looking for pocket of space he would only be doing half the job. He wouldn't be pressing the opposing DM and it would actually make us easier to play against. He is a skilled player but not a clever one. Much better that he he finds space from out wide and drifting inside with the simpler to understand task of protecting his full back.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

33 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Can’t argue with the quality of his through balls from deeper, he’s our most creative player by far..... re the space, unless he gets that role, suppose we won’t know. 

The issue would then be who plays in that wider deeper role and will they protect Aaron’s enough...(would be Hernandez or Platcheta) but think we would score more and get more consistency from Emi in that forward role. 

That's another reason for me why he should be a bit further back rather than out wide (and go to 4-3-2-1 instead of 4-2-3-1). The difference is, I think Buendia could open teams up with his dribbling down the middle, if not indeed pick someone out with a ball from the deep. I have said I think he could and should be a classic number 10 as a playmaker, but I could easily see a deep-lying playmaker in Buendia as well. We know he likes to harry and chase the ball usually, and if he just stopped chucking the odd benny, I could see him doing a grand job in that deeper position.

Edited October 27, 2020 by TheGunnShow

[Alfie54 76]

10 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I would actually say there's an argument for starting him further back. We know he's got an excellent engine and - when he's not chucking a tanty - will put a tackle in and try to discharge his defensive duties. However, if his drifting off a wing can be hard work to track, I don't see why he couldn't cause similar problems if running at them from deep with the ball.

Rupp's shown signs of having that in his locker, and Buendia's a much trickier dribbler than Rupp could ever be.

He concedes possession in dangerous areas and gives away too many free kick around our box, definitely don’t want him any deeper

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 minutes ago, Alfie54 said:

He concedes possession in dangerous areas and gives away too many free kick around our box, definitely don’t want him any deeper

Fair point, you would need two more defensive sorts alongside him doing that, hence the 4-3-2-1 suggestion.

[......and Smith must score. 1,342]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

He's put about 8 key passes or through balls in to the forwards in the last two games which they should have done a lot better with. Yes he still flings his hands up in frustration and doesn;t track back as quickly as he should at times which needs resolving but had our strikers been more clinical he would have half a dozen assists already. 

I can see the plusses he brings to the team Jim but I'm thinking perhaps we should look in a different direction. He's been at the club a fair while now and just can't seem to shake off his petulance when things aren't going well.

His skill is unquestionable. It's his attitude that lets him down and it does nothing for team harmony.

With Buendia there's more pluses than minuses but I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth all the hassle.

[BigFish 1,986]

Just now, ......and Smith must score. said:

I can see the plusses he brings to the team Jim but I'm thinking perhaps we should look in a different direction. He's been at the club a fair while now and just can't seem to shake off his petulance when things aren't going well.

His skill is unquestionable. It's his attitude that lets him down and it does nothing for team harmony.

With Buendia there's more pluses than minuses but I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth all the hassle.

Even being sceptical it is clear he is integral to the way we play and our chances of success. He is just massively overrated by some on here, thats the thing.

[......and Smith must score. 1,342]

9 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

I can see the plusses he brings to the team Jim but I'm thinking perhaps we should look in a different direction. He's been at the club a fair while now and just can't seem to shake off his petulance when things aren't going well.

His skill is unquestionable. It's his attitude that lets him down and it does nothing for team harmony.

With Buendia there's more pluses than minuses but I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth all the hassle.

 

3 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Even being sceptical it is clear he is integral to the way we play and our chances of success. He is just massively overrated by some on here, thats the thing.

I don't dispute that Buendia is an important part of the team. Maybe I'm too old fashioned but I think team harmony is just as important.

[Decemberists 42]

Don’t buy into him not helping out defensively. As mentioned above he has really great numbers for tackles. He wins the ball back with his pressing more than his fair share. He is arguably too aggressive with his desire to win the ball back, he is risking cards.

Not being careful enough with the ball in our own defensive third is a fair criticism and certainly frustrating. But it also comes with the territory, in order to create you need to take risks.

Wes would lose the ball a lot too and we loved him, all because he didn’t sulk as much as Emi!

I’d also suggest if his attitude was perfect his talent would mean he wouldn’t be playing for us. He has the ability to be a top top player. 

He has contributed, and importantly entertained, in his two seasons with us. There have been ups and downs but that is what football is all about! I’d rather watch Emi each week than a lesser steady Eddie player. 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

That's another reason for me why he should be a bit further back rather than out wide (and go to 4-3-2-1 instead of 4-2-3-1). The difference is, I think Buendia could open teams up with his dribbling down the middle, if not indeed pick someone out with a ball from the deep. I have said I think he could and should be a classic number 10 as a playmaker, but I could easily see a deep-lying playmaker in Buendia as well. We know he likes to harry and chase the ball usually, and if he just stopped chucking the odd benny, I could see him doing a grand job in that deeper position.

He would get far too frustrated in a deeper position and would spend too much energy in defensive duties.   He’s not a central midfielder.    

[Hardhouse44 261]

I think what many see a petulance is really frustration and thats becaues he wants to win. I for one would rather have a player like Emi than one who looks like hes not bothered either way. 

Truth is sometimes hes so far ahead in vision and ability from the rest that he will from time to time get frustrated. Also the **** poor standard of the refs in this leauge means that they miss fouls on him because he can make everything look so easy or they can't even comprehend what he was doing so it looks like he wasnt really fouled when he was.

 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

1 hour ago, BigFish said:

Simple, because as you describe it, with Buendia wandering about looking for pocket of space he would only be doing half the job. He wouldn't be pressing the opposing DM and it would actually make us easier to play against. He is a skilled player but not a clever one. Much better that he he finds space from out wide and drifting inside with the simpler to understand task of protecting his full back.

I think you’re missing the point there.   Every player in the team has work to do in possession and out of possession.    As you suggest, yes Emi would be expected to press the central DM out of possession (apologies I didn’t make that clear) and I suspect he would do that very well, better than the other options we have.....but once we turn over possession, that’s when he’s free to find space.... and at the point of turnover, he’s already further up the field to find the pockets and at a time when the opponent will be out of defensive shape.   
 

Why do you say he’s not a clever player, have you not noticed how quickly he sees the pass, e.g the assist for Pukki this Saturday.   If he didn’t see that and release it quickly, Pukki is offside.    That’s clever.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

49 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

He would get far too frustrated in a deeper position and would spend too much energy in defensive duties.   He’s not a central midfielder.    

If he's hitting successful balls out of the deep, I'm not so sure that's a given re. frustration. Furthermore, as you said in a later post, he's free to find space when the turnover takes place, and he does press well and see passes very quickly.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

16 hours ago, Jerrykerry said:

Nobody wants to buy him. 

Not selling him in one transfer window clearly does not equal: 'nobody wants to buy him'.

16 hours ago, Jerrykerry said:

How many goals and assists has he had in past 20 games? 

Let's be fair here - how many goals and assists do Norwich City football club have in the 20 games? Hardly any at all.

But entertaining the question - off the top of my head, he assisted Pukki's goal last weekend, scored versus Watford at the end of last season and played a key role in the own goal versus Rotherham. Oh and not forgetting he has missed at least 3(?) games entirely this season.

So in terms of this season he's played 4 games (Derby, Rotherham, Birmingham and Wycombe) and of the 5 goals we've scored in that time he played an essential role in the Rotherham goal and set up Pukki vs Wycombe. 40% of our goals then.

16 hours ago, Jerrykerry said:

He's petulant, and a one season wonder, based on the reality of the stats. 

'One season wonder'. Well he's only been here two seasons and the second was the worst premier league performance in our history. Despite that his stats for key passes were up there with the best in the league, and he performed very well generally for the first half of the season. By the same token you could paint most of the players who emerged from the Farke championship winning era as one season wonders... But clearly you have some sort of problem with Buendia as Lakey does with Snodgrass.

Why you are appear to be levelling the poorest run in the club's history squarely on Buendia's shoulders is beyond me. Everyone clearly deserves a fresh start this season and he is already showing signs of getting back to his best despite limited game time. Come back to this thread at the end of the season and we'll see how much of a one season wonder he is.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

24 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

If he's hitting successful balls out of the deep, I'm not so sure that's a given re. frustration. Furthermore, as you said in a later post, he's free to find space when the turnover takes place, and he does press well and see passes very quickly.

If!

If he plays as a 10, we have two defensive midfielders (usually Skipp / Rupp) who hold positions even when we gain possession, e.g for if we lose it again.   He would be required to hold (unless your saying play 4-3-2-1) and wouldn’t be free to find space and the point is he’d be too deep just as he is out wide.   

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

27 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

If!

If he plays as a 10, we have two defensive midfielders (usually Skipp / Rupp) who hold positions even when we gain possession, e.g for if we lose it again.   He would be required to hold (unless your saying play 4-3-2-1) and wouldn’t be free to find space and the point is he’d be too deep just as he is out wide.   

I actually think we'd be more solid and also find a way of getting Vrancic in early / solve the problem we have at #10 by playing 4-3-2-1. Indeed, I started a thread to that effect a few days ago, as my thinking was getting the full-backs to provide width instead and having a structure such that Vrancic can hit balls from deep as per his strengths.

I think that would work well for Buendia too after a little bit of time for him to get used to it, but it would work somewhat differently as Buendia's more mobile and trickier on the ball. He'd be able to do what Rupp was doing against Brum but to far greater effect.

[lake district canary 4,531]

I think with Buendia and Cantwell, they need to add goals to their armoury. Yes, Todd got 7 last season, but neither have scored yet this season, although Todd was unlucky with the offside one last week, which was a tight call. 

Also with our ace free kick specialist Super Mario not on the pitch, it is a shame that neither Todd nor Emi are dead ball specialists. Emi takes some free kicks/corners, but to be honest, is a bit inconsistent with them and I don't think he has scored or even come close with a free kick in his whole time with us.  Someone will tell me Emi is a dead ball specialist, but the evidence imo isn't that strong.

Need more from them both, the challenge is there for them and if they have ambitions of going to a bigger club at some stage, they have to prove they are up to it this season - not with just looking good, but with actually producing end results.

 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

16 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I actually think we'd be more solid and also find a way of getting Vrancic in early / solve the problem we have at #10 by playing 4-3-2-1. Indeed, I started a thread to that effect a few days ago, as my thinking was getting the full-backs to provide width instead and having a structure such that Vrancic can hit balls from deep as per his strengths.

I think that would work well for Buendia too after a little bit of time for him to get used to it, but it would work somewhat differently as Buendia's more mobile and trickier on the ball. He'd be able to do what Rupp was doing against Brum but to far greater effect.

Sorry I’m a little confused.    We are talking about Buendia, your thread on 4-3-2-1 was a way to get Vrancic in the team (a CM playmaker).     If you do that, there’s no place in the 3 for Buendia as say Skipp and Rupp would play alongside.   Surely it would be one or the other.

Regardless, we are talking about getting the most from Emi and where his best position is.   I can’t see him thriving as a CM especially as we do need two defensive minded lads in light of our frailties.    .... and you can’t suggest anyone could do a better job than the one Rupp did against Brum, he had an immaculate game.   Emi has to play further forward.   

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

25 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I think with Buendia and Cantwell, they need to add goals to their armoury. Yes, Todd got 7 last season, but neither have scored yet this season, although Todd was unlucky with the offside one last week, which was a tight call. 

Need more from them both, the challenge is there for them and if they have ambitions of going to a bigger club at some stage, they have to prove they are up to it this season - not with just looking good, but with actually producing end results.

Jeez give them a chance! They've both played a total of four games each this season, both been in and out of the team due to the transfer window, and both dealt with niggly injuries and have needed to be brought back up to speed.

Buendia in particular was stated by Farke at severely lacking game time due to injury over preseason, the 3-game suspension and then another injury when he was ready to return! Cantwell managed the first couple of games this season but didn't do great - probably due to the transfer window and he's looked much better in the last two fixtures now he knows his position with the club.

Clearly then, both of their seasons have only just begun. They don't 'need to do better' because they aren't performing well enough now, they will however naturally improve because they are only now finding their rhythm in the team again.

And actually I have seen plenty enough in the last couple of games to see Cantwell is going to bag goals this season, Buendia's creativity has also been getting back to his best with a vital role in the Rotherham goal and the vintage Buendia-Pukki combination versus Wycombe.

They've probably been our best two players in those games (alongside Rupp) and they're still only just getting going this season!

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

48 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Sorry I’m a little confused.    We are talking about Buendia, your thread on 4-3-2-1 was a way to get Vrancic in the team (a CM playmaker).     If you do that, there’s no place in the 3 for Buendia as say Skipp and Rupp would play alongside.   Surely it would be one or the other.

Regardless, we are talking about getting the most from Emi and where his best position is.   I can’t see him thriving as a CM especially as we do need two defensive minded lads in light of our frailties.    .... and you can’t suggest anyone could do a better job than the one Rupp did against Brum, he had an immaculate game.   Emi has to play further forward.   

Fair enough, I was merely saying that I have form for proposing 4-3-2-1 in the recent past and had made a recent thread to that effect, but I'd initially proposed it as a way to get Vrancic into the starting line-up. However, when thinking through what was said in this forum, I thought it was not beyond the scope of feasibility for Buendia to also fit into a midfield three, but be a more mobile / attacking variant of it. That's all.

 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

39 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Fair enough, I was merely saying that I have form for proposing 4-3-2-1 in the recent past and had made a recent thread to that effect, but I'd initially proposed it as a way to get Vrancic into the starting line-up. However, when thinking through what was said in this forum, I thought it was not beyond the scope of feasibility for Buendia to also fit into a midfield three, but be a more mobile / attacking variant of it. That's all.

 

So in a 4-3-2-1 Vrancic plays.... 

What would you do with Buendia in a         4-2-3-1 formation?   

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

10 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

So in a 4-3-2-1 Vrancic plays.... 

What would you do with Buendia in a         4-2-3-1 formation?   

I'd like to see him as a number 10. Essentially, get him in the middle. The same skill and awareness of space that enables him to drift off a wing and find pockets will be just as useful in the middle (or, as I've said before, from deeper). 

We could use a tall winger, almost like a wide target man. Not really got one of those in our squad. Idah's probably closest when he's out wide, but that's not his long-term position.

[Decemberists 42]

Team of the week

On the front page Emi’s contribution is quantified for Brentford.
 

Unsurprisingly he was the most influential player in our team, despite not being at his best. We are lucky to have him and I forgive any arm waving or sulking.