Tories vote against kids getting free school meals

[NFN FC 1,122]

Just now, Herman said:

These aren't normal times so stop being contrarian for the sakes of it. There should be long term plans, but at the moment we have this crippling pandemic to deal with.

There are long term plans 

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

6 minutes ago, sonyc said:

You probably ought to read the Marmot report(s).

From a quick scan, there seems to be considerable overlap between what I said originally and the Marmot reports. I found this quote:

Key to Marmot's approach to addressing health inequalities is to create the conditions for people to take control of their own lives.

This is reflected in the 6 policy objectives and to the highest priority being given to the first objective:

1. giving every child the best start in life
2. enabling all children, young people and adults to maximize their capabilities and have control over their lives
3. creating fair employment and good work for all
4. ensuring a healthy standard of living for all
5. creating and developing sustainable places and communities
6. strengthening the role and impact of ill-health prevention

Although I didn't go into as much detail as this, all the above sits comfortably within what I said.

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

6 minutes ago, Herman said:

These aren't normal times so stop being contrarian for the sakes of it. There should be long term plans, but at the moment we have this crippling pandemic to deal with.

Nope. The pandemic should not be used as an excuse for not doing the right thing.

[NFN FC 1,122]

So points 1, 4 & 6 would really be helped by making sure all kids get fed at school

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

8 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

You'd most likely get a generation of hungry kids that turn away from schools and towards crime. Then they'd breed and make more hungry kids. 

I think that's been happening for sometime now. Better to break the cycle.

[NFN FC 1,122]

Just now, Rock The Boat said:

I think that's been happening for sometime now. Better to break the cycle.

Exactly, I'm glad you agree with giving the poorest kids some free food to help them have a good start in life regardless of the mistakes their parents made. At first I thought you were a RWNJ but you're alright rocky boot, you're alright

[Aggy 752]

10 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Will the adults who lose their jobs be receiving child-related benefits as part of their unemployment benefits? And wasn't this the case pre-Covid?

Would it be better to have long-term solutions to eradicate poverty rather than short-term solutions to keep the effects at bay?

The last paragraph is hypothetical so I can't answer it. Is there any prior evidence to suggest what might happen?

Is there any prior evidence to suggest that not giving kids free school meals stops them dropping out of school? If not, then while long term solutions would be great, why would you not help in the short term as well?

[NFN FC 1,122]

2 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Is there any prior evidence to suggest that not giving kids free school meals stops them dropping out of school? If not, then while long term solutions would be great, why would you not help in the short term as well?

Because that money could be siphoned off to hard working Tories and their friends' offshore companies

Edited October 21, 2020 by NFN FC

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

6 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

So points 1, 4 & 6 would really be helped by making sure all kids get fed at school

Full marks for persistence  

[sonyc 5,489]

3 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

From a quick scan, there seems to be considerable overlap between what I said originally and the Marmot reports. I found this quote:

Key to Marmot's approach to addressing health inequalities is to create the conditions for people to take control of their own lives.

This is reflected in the 6 policy objectives and to the highest priority being given to the first objective:

1. giving every child the best start in life
2. enabling all children, young people and adults to maximize their capabilities and have control over their lives
3. creating fair employment and good work for all
4. ensuring a healthy standard of living for all
5. creating and developing sustainable places and communities
6. strengthening the role and impact of ill-health prevention

Although I didn't go into as much detail as this, all the above sits comfortably within what I said.

Worth a deeper dive into the report. It doesn't aim to be party political but is based on evidence. You probably wouldn't agree with the main thrust (or maybe you would?) ...one of the central themes is that of structural change. It doesn't place the individual at the heart of the problem (the choices made) because the individual is part of s bigger system. But, there's a lot you'd agree with.

As for education I would recommend Paulo Freire. He may blow your mind as a Marxist educationalist thinker....yet the premise of his idea of the best way to educate is far ahead of his time. When I say far ahead perhaps 20 to 30 years. His time will come.

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

2 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

Because that money could be siphoned off to hard working Tories and their friends' offshore companies

Or building hospitals

[NFN FC 1,122]

Just now, Rock The Boat said:

Or building hospitals

Yes or extending a small number of hospitals and not building anywhere near the promised number of hospitals

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

Worth a deeper dive into the report. It doesn't aim to be party political but is based on evidence. You probably wouldn't agree with the main thrust (or maybe you would?) ...one of the central themes is that of structural change. It doesn't place the individual at the heart of the problem (the choices made) because the individual is part of s bigger system. But, there's a lot you'd agree with.

As for education I would recommend Paulo Freire. He may blow your mind as a Marxist educationalist thinker....yet the premise of his idea of the best way to educate is far ahead of his time. When I say far ahead perhaps 20 to 30 years. His time will come.

Thanks Sonyc. One of the great things about this site is that people post up stuff that others might not normally see. I will check out your recommendations.

[sonyc 5,489]

I don't think Marcus Rashford will give up on this issue.

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

7 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Is there any prior evidence to suggest that not giving kids free school meals stops them dropping out of school? If not, then while long term solutions would be great, why would you not help in the short term as well?

My problem with Rashford's campaign is that while it is well-meaning it is a distraction from finding and implementing real, sustainable long-term solutions to the problem of childhood poverty. 

Obviously, the problem is not with the kids themselves. They don't ask to be in this situation. But the solution lies in what Sonyc refers to - taking control of one's own life.

One problem is that saying 'Hey kids, stay at school and take your exams' is not as sexy as saying 'Hey Boris, feed our kids'. The former is worthy but dull but that is where the emphasis lies. Pass your exams, get a skill, find a job is the stuff that make kids creep out of the back door but unfortunately it's the solution - along with don't become a young single parent - if you want to break the cycle of poverty. 

[sonyc 5,489]

Just now, Rock The Boat said:

Thanks Sonyc. One of the great things about this site is that people post up stuff that others might not normally see. I will check out your recommendations.

Freire is really human. He taught tough unloved, poor children through helping them get to the point where they could challenge the teacher. Only then, once the difference between pupil and teacher was eliminated can perspective or real learning take place. Most education we know about is delivered from 'on high' (Freire calls it "banking education"...where students listen, write and repeat). It doesn't change pupils. It needs a long term radical change. Some disadvantaged kids get there in the end through sheer power of personality, through grit. Some become entrepreneurs. But, with much better education, the process could be accelerated.

So, this was one thought I had about your point on secondary education. As I have stated, it is very radical. Freire is a revelation to me. Quite an incredible person (dead for some time unfortunately).

Oh...I don't think extending free school meals is such a hard thing for a government to do in such a difficult time when so many adults are struggling especially coming off furlough, being laid off etc. This pandemic has and will continue to adversely affect the poorer population I'm afraid.

I get your points but we would probably disagree on how change might happen.

Btw. I don't expect you to agree with Freire but he is definitely worth a look.

[Herman 9,711]

29 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Nope. The pandemic should not be used as an excuse for not doing the right thing.

You've been in government for well over ten years and you've done nothing to help improve people's lives or lift them out of poverty. Now you're asked to help people in a dire situation and you make excuses like this. If you had done the right thing we would have been better prepared for this disaster for starters. 

[Van wink 2,994]

Poor decision. It would cost very little in the grand scheme of things and is the right thing to do at the moment. These are not normal times.

[Aggy 752]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

My problem with Rashford's campaign is that while it is well-meaning it is a distraction from finding and implementing real, sustainable long-term solutions to the problem of childhood poverty. 

Obviously, the problem is not with the kids themselves. They don't ask to be in this situation. But the solution lies in what Sonyc refers to - taking control of one's own life.

One problem is that saying 'Hey kids, stay at school and take your exams' is not as sexy as saying 'Hey Boris, feed our kids'. The former is worthy but dull but that is where the emphasis lies. Pass your exams, get a skill, find a job is the stuff that make kids creep out of the back door but unfortunately it's the solution - along with don't become a young single parent - if you want to break the cycle of poverty. 

What campaigns being run by the current government is Rashford’s campaign distracting from? 

How do 12 year olds whose parents can’t afford to feed them take control of their own life? In fact, to the extent it is possible for school aged kids to  take control of their own life, then as I said earlier, the way to feed yourself if your parents can’t/wont is to go and get a job, not stay in unpaid education.

[Surfer 1,547]

People like RTB would be really comfortable as Scrooge in Dickensian London. It’s a pandemic for FS, and the Christian / any religious teaching thing to do would be to help our Brothers and Sisters feed the children. 

But NO, we have to impose our morals on them. 
 

[horsefly 4,283]

3 minutes ago, Surfer said:

People like RTB would be really comfortable as Scrooge in Dickensian London. It’s a pandemic for FS, and the Christian / any religious teaching thing to do would be to help our Brothers and Sisters feed the children. 

But NO, we have to impose our morals on them. 
 

Indeed! The ghost of Samuel Smiles lives on in RTB. Starve the little ****s into helping themselves, it will be good for them in the long run. Unconscionable guff. 

[horsefly 4,283]

"50m face masks, bought as part of a £252m contract with Ayanda Capital – a London firm that specialises in “currency trading, offshore property, private equity and trade financing – proved essentially useless to health workers." https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/government-wasted-millions-on-face-masks-deemed-unsafe_uk_5f2bb7e7c5b64d7a55eee786

Cost of the free school meals intiative £126m

[Surfer 1,547]

Precisely. 

[Herman 9,711]

"Now is not the time." 

[horsefly 4,283]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/12-million-people-in-britain-will-struggle-to-pay-bills-watchdog-says/ar-BB1agRqN?ocid=msedgntp

"LONDON (Reuters) - Some 12 million people in Britain are likely to struggle with bills and loan repayments as the COVID-19 pandemic continues to wreak economic havoc, a Financial Conduct Authority survey tracking consumer financial resilience showed on Thursday."

I'm going to hazard a guess that some of those 12m might have a child or two. Do they really need to eat every day? After all there are children in other parts of the world who don't, so why should children here have the privilege of food every day. Surely with all the log-burners around now there must be quite a few chimneys that need cleaning. 

[kick it off 1,948]

10 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

The kids are being punished by the poor choices made by their parents. If you want to avoid falling into poverty studies show there are certain things you must do.

Such as not live through a pandemic where 1million people have lost their jobs unexpectedly?

[king canary 7,578]

The sheer brass balls on Scully to say 'this happened under a Labour government' when Labour haven't been in power for a decade is something else really.

One of the more depressing aspects of the pandemic has been the general inability of our political classes to put aside their party differences and work together to deal with one of the biggest crisises this country has faced. Kids going hungry aren't a political football to score points with, neither is pandemic relief for Cities going into lockdown, yet it keeps happening.

[kick it off 1,948]

9 hours ago, sonyc said:

Freire is really human. He taught tough unloved, poor children through helping them get to the point where they could challenge the teacher. Only then, once the difference between pupil and teacher was eliminated can perspective or real learning take place. Most education we know about is delivered from 'on high' (Freire calls it "banking education"...where students listen, write and repeat). It doesn't change pupils. It needs a long term radical change. Some disadvantaged kids get there in the end through sheer power of personality, through grit. Some become entrepreneurs. But, with much better education, the process could be accelerated.

Your assertion that "most education" is delivered through rote learning is entirely inaccurate. That's very much part of the policy the Tories are trying to bestow upon us and take us back to, but I've been in schools for 10 years and  the learning is more progressive than that. Rote education is very much a minority methodology, usually employed by older teachers - Katherine Birbalsingh who is headteacher of the Michaela School in London is the Tory poster girl for this - she has achieved incredible results with a very disadvantaged group of students almost entirely through rote learning. Of course, her draconian school rules have her school looking like a prison as the kids are forbidden to talk between lessons, and they spend an entire week with the Year 7s practicing entering classrooms in silence etc, but the results are undeniable. I wouldn't want to work there and I question how much the school offers it's pupils aside from GCSE results, it seems to be an exam factory to me, but if you're asking a binary question about whether rote learning can be effective with disadvantaged kids in terms specifically of educational outcomes, then the answer has to be yes.

Most schools are actively working to embed meta-cognition at the moment which is the "in vogue" methodology based on neuroscience research about effective memory techniques and maximising learning capacity. Part of this involves reducing cognitive load which is a barrier to learning strongly linked to disadvantaged pupils in particular.

Don't get me wrong, I think we need educational reform, this country is nowhere near perfect, or even good enough in terms of it's education system. Rote learning hasn't been the common denominator for at least 15 years though and there aren't many teachers who want to go back to those days (although there is a small minority of teachers who do). The single biggest thing that this country could do to improve education would be to get the kids reading from a young age. This requires parental buy in and support but high literacy levels are the single biggest factor in predicting future educational attainment.

[horsefly 4,283]

Just had a thought. MPs can forgo their egregious pay rise and donate it to food banks. That would raise over £2 million.

[king canary 7,578]

5 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Just had a thought. MPs can forgo their egregious pay rise and donate it to food banks. That would raise over £2 million.

I saw someone making the point on twitter about using the money that goes towards subsidized bars and restaurants within the commons. Absolute scandal that those are still a thing.