Newport County to investigate why teams did not take knee before Tranmere game

[Uncle Fred 526]

4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Utterly naive! The point is that it's the actual players themselves who are engaging in the protest. It is them who are saying you can't ignore moral and political issues that are clearly relevant to their participation in football on equal terms with each other. Or would you rather force to them to behave like slaves?

Do what Marcus Rashford did and take the politics into politics and leave the sport for sport 

[horsefly 4,300]

1 minute ago, Uncle Fred said:

Do what Marcus Rashford did and take the politics into politics and leave the sport for sport 

You mean the same Marcus Rashford who campaigns against racism in football and takes the knee before each game. You really are rather dumb.

[Haus 259]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I think 'defund the police' is a great example of two things...

1) It is a bad slogan that people don't understand and is easily twisted. If you have to write paragraphs explaining why 'defund the police' doesn't actually mean what it sounds like then a better slogan is needed.

2) the problem of lifting issues directly from the US to the UK. US police spending is insane and some of the equipment they have is military grade- there was a news story a little while ago about a rural, small town US police force ending up with a military armoured humvee in a town with basically zero crime. Too many American police are deeply undertrained but expected to act like Navy Seals. However, in the UK, the police are already somewhat underfunded and the same issues behind the 'defund the police' movement in the US don't really exist here. Not saying there aren't issues but different places need different solutions and the wholesale lifting of American slogans into UK discourse is at best meaningless and and worst actively unhelpful. For example, there is something bizarre about watching protestors chanting 'hands up don't shoot' at UK police who don't have guns and fatally shot a total of 3 people in 2019.

Yeah its actually about making the US police work more like they do in the UK.   Money that would be spent on military weapons instead spent on treating addiction, social work etc.  

A move to demilitarize the police and make them move to more of a public servant role like we have here - its some really good ideas but people dont read or check what it means, they just react to a headline with outrage. 

[king canary 7,605]

1 minute ago, Haus said:

Yeah its actually about making the US police work more like they do in the UK.   Money that would be spent on military weapons instead spent on treating addiction, social work etc.  

A move to demilitarize the police and make them move to more of a public servant role like we have here - its some really good ideas but people dont read or check what it means, they just react to a headline with outrage. 

That is why it's a bad slogan- it doesn't actually really link to very well to what is meant by it.

It also isn't helped by the fact you ask different 'defund' supporters what it means and you get quite a few different answers.

Some on the far reaches genuinely want an end to the police and for them to be replaced with what would essentially be public militias- a terrible idea.

Some think it just means spending less on police and more on social programmes- which is good.

Some see it in between those two. 

It isn't a particularly useful movement in my opinion and I'd go as far as suggesting it'll do more harm than good and, if he wins, would have played a small role in keeping Trump in office.

Finally it also isn't great because it is a great example of middle class, woke, white folks talking over people they claim to care about- police defunding/abolition is really unpopular amongst black communities for example. If the BLM movement is supposed to elevate and support black voices then it needs to stop talking about defunding.

[Uncle Fred 526]

23 minutes ago, horsefly said:

You mean the same Marcus Rashford who campaigns against racism in football and takes the knee before each game. You really are rather dumb.

Which proved the more effective the woke bending of the knee or the political lobbying. You are out of your depth fella

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,023]

45 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

I agree the intolerance that some people show who have differing views to them is so very modern, so very woke 

I really do not think there was any need to finish your comment the way you did, other than to bait and cause division, which is such a shame. I have no issue with having a discussion or debate on the subject, but it should be done in a civilised manner without resorting to insults and foul language. As humans we have as much in common as we do things that make us different, hopefully one day we will learn to embrace those things we have in common, we will not agree on everything, but at least we can disagree in a civilised way nd not allow that disagreement to divide us...........

[horsefly 4,300]

Just now, Uncle Fred said:

Which proved the more effective the woke bending of the knee or the political lobbying. You are out of your depth fella

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaha!!!!!

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Of course he doesn't. Right-wingers rarely bother with the details, they just take the catchy slogans and then warp them to fit their deeply entrenched opinions.

Defunding the police is actually an inherently sensible policy. And could be done in a risk-free environment. The principle is to reduce the sums (gargantuan, in the case of the US) we spend on policing and divert those funds to community projects, scholarships and target opportunity packages designed to prevent crime.

Ideally, you would have a government trial this by funding the community and grassroots projects for 12-24 months, without defunding the police and then when crime inevitably drops as a result of it, you then start to reduce the size and budget of the police force to the level required for the reduced crime levels. And for the job losses, police have a pretty unique set of experiences that would be an asset to the crime prevention programs and projects that replace law enforcement as a means of getting people away from crime.

It's not about getting rid of police forces but about changing the way we view "crime prevention" to use a carrot instead of a stick.

There are still weaknesses in the idea, although if you're saying the police should just concentrate on policing and not be a pseudo social-care facility or such then I think we'd share a lot of common ground. My gripe with policing is that they appear poorly trained, and defunding them may make this matter even worse.

[The Real Buh 3,432]

Come on guys...

[king canary 7,605]

45 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

There are still weaknesses in the idea, although if you're saying the police should just concentrate on policing and not be a pseudo social-care facility or such then I think we'd share a lot of common ground. My gripe with policing is that they appear poorly trained, and defunding them may make this matter even worse.

This is certainly the issue in the states.

Police training there apparently lasts an average of 13-19 weeks- so less than 6 months, yet they are asked to act like military. Add in the general gun situation in the US and some of the more nervy incidents begin to make sense.

There was an example a while ago of a black man who was shot in his car having declared that he had a (legal) gun in his glove compartment and reaching to open and show the officer- he then got twitchy and shot him at point blank range.

This incident just doesn't happen in the UK because police officers can be pretty certain that the person stopping them doesn't have a gun (despite the Daily Mail often making it sound like inner city youths are all walking around armed to the teeth) so the act of reaching for the glove compartment isn't threatening.

There was an excellent twitter thread that I've not been able to find again by an ex Cop in the States about how so much of the training they have focuses on basically telling you that everyone is out to kill you and that your job is to protect yourself and your fellow officers first. It is no wonder cops there seem to 'strike first' on so many occasions.

[Crafty Canary 495]

5 hours ago, horsefly said:

"In the aftermath of the shooting in the US taking the knee was a visible gesture of solidarity. Other than that it makes no difference to the on-going issues in the States"

Jesus Christ! are you really claiming that the issue has now been dealt with? Surely you're not that stupid. The protest continues because the racism continues.

Do you have trouble understanding what you read? Nowhere in my post did I claim the issues of BLM and the police, especially in the States, has been dealt with. However I fail to see how footballers routinely taking the knee contributes anything to the resolution of the issue. 

[horsefly 4,300]

2 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

Do you have trouble understanding what you read? Nowhere in my post did I claim the issues of BLM and the police, especially in the States, has been dealt with. However I fail to see how footballers routinely taking the knee contributes anything to the resolution of the issue. 

The point is that those sportsmen and sportswomen women who continue to engage in taking the knee think it does make a difference, and I'm inclined to side with them and the many millions around the world who support them in doing it. The fact you are even writing this shows that it has kept the issue in the spotlight. Those games of football (and all the other national sports) are watched by millions, thus taking the knee before each event is a reminder to those millions that racism infects all aspects of society. It is difficult to comprehend why people like yourself object to a very simple act of peaceful protest calling for racial equality.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

The cogent argument against taking the knee is that it could easily, and justifiably seen as a form of slacktivism. However, how else are they supposed to protest? Loot?? I've no doubt plenty are politicking already, and the fact it's not yet worked is why this is still going on.

So whilst it might not necessarily achieve goals, it's keeping awareness up.

Dare I say it, complaining about this - a restrained and respectful form of protest, seems to me to be the behaviour of a "snowflake". Let them take it if they wish.

[king canary 7,605]

39 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

The cogent argument against taking the knee is that it could easily, and justifiably seen as a form of slacktivism. However, how else are they supposed to protest? Loot?? I've no doubt plenty are politicking already, and the fact it's not yet worked is why this is still going on.

So whilst it might not necessarily achieve goals, it's keeping awareness up.

Dare I say it, complaining about this - a restrained and respectful form of protest, seems to me to be the behaviour of a "snowflake". Let them take it if they wish.

You'll never please some people. It is always the wrong way to protest.

Statues pulled down is too violent.

Marching is 'virtue signaling.'

Taking a knee in 'bringing politics into sport.'

These people just don't want to admit that they just either don't care about the issue or are actually a bit racist maybe.

 

[NFN FC 1,123]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

You'll never please some people. It is always the wrong way to protest.

Statues pulled down is too violent.

Marching is 'virtue signaling.'

Taking a knee in 'bringing politics into sport.'

These people just don't want to admit that they just either don't care about the issue or are actually a bit racist maybe.

 

Same thing really 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

You'll never please some people. It is always the wrong way to protest.

Statues pulled down is too violent.

Marching is 'virtue signaling.'

Taking a knee in 'bringing politics into sport.'

These people just don't want to admit that they just either don't care about the issue or are actually a bit racist maybe.

 

Ah yes, the phrase "virtue signalling". When people are reduced to what is gaslighting of those trying to do the right thing, you know full well, even if they're not self-aware enough themselves to do so, that they've ran out of counterarguments.

To be fair, no-one has said it in this thread, but it is something I see a fair bit in a Myers-Briggs group I admin and a couple of others in particular that I follow (as they're mainly Americans who comment) but those who say taking a knee against the anthem is disrespectful really amuse me with the stupidity of that comment. When the same ones then complain about lack of freedom of speech, it's a particularly amusing contradiction...

[king canary 7,605]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Ah yes, the phrase "virtue signalling". When people are reduced to what is gaslighting of those trying to do the right thing, you know full well, even if they're not self-aware enough themselves to do so, that they've ran out of counterarguments.

To be fair, no-one has said it in this thread, but it is something I see a fair bit in a Myers-Briggs group I admin and a couple of others in particular that I follow (as they're mainly Americans who comment) but those who say taking a knee against the anthem is disrespectful really amuse me with the stupidity of that comment. When the same ones then complain about lack of freedom of speech, it's a particularly amusing contradiction...

It is in pretty regular use on here- I got told I was virtue signaling because I believed people should pay for a subscription to the Athletic rather than asking people to copy and paste it here.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

It is in pretty regular use on here- I got told I was virtue signaling because I believed people should pay for a subscription to the Athletic rather than asking people to copy and paste it here.

My reference to what no-one's said in this thread was about the protests re. the anthem. Apologies if I didn't make that clear enough. However, my stance re. the attempts at rendering "virtue signalling" as a pejorative should be very clear!

Edited October 19, 2020 by TheGunnShow

[horsefly 4,300]

This ought to be enough to bring this debate to a close:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/cricket/jason-holder-urges-cricket-not-to-abandon-black-lives-matter-message/ar-BB1ad2fq?ocid=msedgntp

"Jason Holder has urged cricket not to abandon the Black Lives Matter message after the West Indies captain and his team were recognised among the annual Cricket Writers’ Club awards."

"There was, however, an echo of Michael Holding’s lament that taking a knee has largely stopped. “I was following a bit of what Mikey Holding was saying. It’s difficult to get people to see the importance of it and that’s where the education has to continue to filter through. I personally was a bit disappointed to see how the Pakistan and Australia tours that went on after ours, that they were not showing their solidarity afterwards. It’s a hard challenge and a long hard road. It’s not an overnight fix but the most important thing is we need to come together and see each other as equal human beings. I haven’t had one conversation [in the IPL] around it. Sometimes it seems it has gone unnoticed, which is a sad thing. I guess it’s for us to re-highlight the importance of it."