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Rock The Boat

Shake up of Premier league

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37 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The bottom two divisions will be up for it as they want the cash and very few of them have realistic chances/aspirations of making the prmier league anyway. Not so much the fans but the owners will just want the cash to keep them afloat short term.

Yeah I think the deal probably suits those both at the top and bottom ends of the pyramid but not many in the middle.

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Oh well, it now means that as a top 26 club at least we’ll be ok to finish 8th in the Championship from then onwards.

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I can’t find it in the news stories on this, but on the Radio at lunchtime, the Sports Minister said if they try and push this through the government will likely implement a fan lead review of football, there wasn’t any detail but that could be interesting if it comes to pass, I suspect it’s unlikely though as there is too much dosh involved.

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55 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The bottom two divisions will be up for it as they want the cash and very few of them have realistic chances/aspirations of making the prmier league anyway. Not so much the fans but the owners will just want the cash to keep them afloat short term.

 

48 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

There seems to be pretty much unified opposition to this, except for the smaller clubs who are staring oblivion in the face - and whose chance of reaching the Premier League is so small that the changes make little practical difference to them.

I think @Jim Smith, pretty has this one. League 1 & League 2 will gratefully take the money and support this. So will many Champs clubs. Parry didn't get where he is but not understanding who he represents. The top end 9 Prem clubs will also sign up.

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Quote

 

I thought the money gained from overseas rights had pretty much caught up with the domestic money in recent years - and the big 6 didn't waste any time making they got a greater share of that either.

I was thinking even a boycott of sky from fans outside the big 6 might be too little too late now too. The foreign market won't care if the likes of Norwich, Derby, Burnley or West brom have a harder time achieving and maintaining premier league status, and it seems thats where more of the money will end up coming from.

Edited by YellowYawner

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1 minute ago, BigFish said:

 

I think @Jim Smith, pretty has this one. League 1 & League 2 will gratefully take the money and support this. So will many Champs clubs. Parry didn't get where he is but not understanding who he represents. The top end 9 Prem clubs will also sign up.

Whether or not it happens doesn't mean that fans will like it. I suspect that the vast majority will not. Very easy to forget the teams in leagues 1 and 2 who have experienced premier league football who will feel they have the ability to get back there. This will distance them further from it and as such I can't see them or the vast majority of fans supporting the concept.

Most understand football as it is and will see this as a cheap shot at a system struggling to keep going without fans and without the riches of TV money. Does it mean they want to see some filth rich owners take control of English football? Will it heck.

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Just now, chicken said:

Most understand football as it is and will see this as a cheap shot at a system struggling to keep going without fans and without the riches of TV money. Does it mean they want to see some filth rich owners take control of English football? Will it heck.

Most fans don't understand football as it is, they understand football as it was or as they want it to be. That is behind the reaction here. From the moment we started televising league games top end football started to ebb away from those who actually go to games to the "plastics". The 6+3 clubs have all the power already because it is them who drive tv subscriptions. That is reality.

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Lets be clear about the offer

  • £250 million rescue fund for the EFL right now
  • 25% of TV money to be redistributed to the EFL on a ongoing basis
  • 8.5%  for operating costs, Wembley, FA and good causes

That looks generous, particularly when you consider that some Prem clubs like Palace think the EFL deserve nothing.

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1 minute ago, BigFish said:

Lets be clear about the offer

  • £250 million rescue fund for the EFL right now
  • 25% of TV money to be redistributed to the EFL on a ongoing basis
  • 8.5%  for operating costs, Wembley, FA and good causes

That looks generous, particularly when you consider that some Prem clubs like Palace think the EFL deserve nothing.

That isn't being clear about the offer though is it?

It is being clear about a small part of the offer.

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1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Because clubs outside the top six will have to reign in their spending.

They'd have two options: 

a) Continue spending as they do now and go bankrupt upon relegation without the safety net of parachute payments

b) Cut the playing budget by £20m or so whilst they're still in the Premier League, so they'll be able to take the financial hit and survive if they're relegated. 

Most clubs would choose the second option. The only clubs who wouldn't need to consider this are the big six and possibly, at this moment, Everton, Leicester and Wolves.

So b) will narrow the gap between the Prem and the Champs and make it easier for promoted clubs to survive

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4 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Most fans don't understand football as it is, they understand football as it was or as they want it to be. That is behind the reaction here. From the moment we started televising league games top end football started to ebb away from those who actually go to games to the "plastics". The 6+3 clubs have all the power already because it is them who drive tv subscriptions. That is reality.

I think you are hugely out of touch and very wrong. I would argue that you have forgotten what football IS and this is ALL about the fans. At this point it's whether the plastic fans and the huge businesses maquerading as football clubs see football as something you watch on TV in your lounge wearing your shirt or whether it's about the fans that do everything they can to get to see their team play and the community that grows.

It has everything to do with fans and their understanding of football as they should come first, not some fat cat billionaires only wanting to extend their bank balances even further.

Sorry, but you are way out of touch.

As for the 6+3 clubs that drive the TV subscriptions - that's a bit of a fallacy in the sense of if they would be able to command that all on their own, I suspect they would already be pushing for an English Football Super League. The reality is, people want to watch the EPL not half an EPL.

Football, actual football, has never been about how wealthy your club is, but about your team, your club and the fans. The owners, they come and go. The Glazers, the owners of Liverpool... they only care about people that buy their merch and sponsor them. It was always designed to be a working class game and yet it is pricing itself away from that and into living rooms because it's cheaper.

I think the EFL fans have it bang on. This deal is the beginning of the end, not the end of the beginning. I feel sorry for you if you can't see it and as a result suggest "most fans don't understand football as it is" I think they do, and I think this could become a huge monster of a fan rebellion, I really do. Push the fans to make a choice, especially in these times and they will push back against foreign ownership monopolies trying to dictate the future of the English game. 

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Just now, chicken said:

I think you are hugely out of touch and very wrong. I would argue that you have forgotten what football IS and this is ALL about the fans. At this point it's whether the plastic fans and the huge businesses maquerading as football clubs see football as something you watch on TV in your lounge wearing your shirt or whether it's about the fans that do everything they can to get to see their team play and the community that grows.

It has everything to do with fans and their understanding of football as they should come first, not some fat cat billionaires only wanting to extend their bank balances even further.

Sorry, but you are way out of touch.

As for the 6+3 clubs that drive the TV subscriptions - that's a bit of a fallacy in the sense of if they would be able to command that all on their own, I suspect they would already be pushing for an English Football Super League. The reality is, people want to watch the EPL not half an EPL.

Football, actual football, has never been about how wealthy your club is, but about your team, your club and the fans. The owners, they come and go. The Glazers, the owners of Liverpool... they only care about people that buy their merch and sponsor them. It was always designed to be a working class game and yet it is pricing itself away from that and into living rooms because it's cheaper.

I think the EFL fans have it bang on. This deal is the beginning of the end, not the end of the beginning. I feel sorry for you if you can't see it and as a result suggest "most fans don't understand football as it is" I think they do, and I think this could become a huge monster of a fan rebellion, I really do. Push the fans to make a choice, especially in these times and they will push back against foreign ownership monopolies trying to dictate the future of the English game. 

You rather prove my point. This is the EFL's big chance of survival amongst this Covid madness and a chance to bridge that financial divide. Engage with it and there may be some flex, ignore it and we will see tens of clubs go to wall as harder nosed businesmen such as Steve Parish pull up the ladder forever.

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2 minutes ago, BigFish said:

You rather prove my point. This is the EFL's big chance of survival amongst this Covid madness and a chance to bridge that financial divide. Engage with it and there may be some flex, ignore it and we will see tens of clubs go to wall as harder nosed businesmen such as Steve Parish pull up the ladder forever.

Yes, in the short- and probably medium-term. It is no accident this scheme has been revealed now. The question is whether the EFL clubs can absolutely trust the Big Six not to cut this funding at some point in the future.

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Should not be ignored that the subtle changes to distribution of the tv income forming part of these proposals (plus the proposal that each cub can stream 8 of their matches a season on their own platform) is estimated to change the Tv money split from an estimated 1.7:1 ration (top to bottom) to the top clubs getting 4 times as much income as the lower prem clubs.

So you would have a league where the top 6 get to make all the rules and receive four times the tv revenues of the lower clubs and then you would also have championship clubs, possibly with a fairly low wage cap, coming up to the premier league and havng to put together a squad to try and compete with prem clubs but knowing they have no parachute payments. Its possible I suppose that they will be competitive with some of the lower half prem clubs but it seems almost certain that a huge gulf would develop between the top end prem clubs and the rest, which of course is the whole plan. 

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1 minute ago, PurpleCanary said:

Yes, in the short- and probably medium-term. It is no accident this scheme has been revealed now. The question is whether the EFL clubs can absolutely trust the Big Six not to cut this funding at some point in the future.

Agree, and the answer is probably not. Long term some kind of EuroSuperLeague is likely which will rewrite this deal again. However, this deal or something similar through negotiations is probably as good as it gets and is arguably better than the status quo.

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I think it's a pretty stark proposal.  The top Prem clubs save money by cutting two teams from the Prem and pay it lower down the pyramid - so it costs them nothing, and they have smaller fixture numbers which is another bonus for them.  They also consolidate power in the top 9 to avoid the annoyance of having to get lower Prem teams to agree to changes in future.

 

The losers are obviously the bottom half of the Prem, and the Championship teams who aspire to promotion (most of them).  Plus plenty of L1 teams have realistic Prem ambitions like Sunderland, Portsmouth, Wigan, Charlton, Blackpool - all have been in the Prem not that long ago.

 

It's a pretty cynical manoeuvre to get control going forward, using money taken from someone else, and with the pressure on lower league clubs from lack of crowds as leverage.

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3 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Agree, and the answer is probably not. Long term some kind of EuroSuperLeague is likely which will rewrite this deal again. However, this deal or something similar through negotiations is probably as good as it gets and is arguably better than the status quo.

Its not better than the status quo. Its a horrific outcome for British football in the long term. I hope the government step in and do not allow it to happen. 

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3 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

I think it's a pretty stark proposal.  The top Prem clubs save money by cutting two teams from the Prem and pay it lower down the pyramid - so it costs them nothing, and they have smaller fixture numbers which is another bonus for them.  They also consolidate power in the top 9 to avoid the annoyance of having to get lower Prem teams to agree to changes in future.

 

The losers are obviously the bottom half of the Prem, and the Championship teams who aspire to promotion (most of them).  Plus plenty of L1 teams have realistic Prem ambitions like Sunderland, Portsmouth, Wigan, Charlton, Blackpool - all have been in the Prem not that long ago.

 

It's a pretty cynical manoeuvre to get control going forward, using money taken from someone else, and with the pressure on lower league clubs from lack of crowds as leverage.

That sums it up for me ICF, except I would argue it consolidates power in the top 6 PL teams, not 9, as the "big six" can overrule the other 3. A naked power grab knowing that the lower league teams are facing an existential crisis.

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1 hour ago, Rivvo said:

I can’t find it in the news stories on this, but on the Radio at lunchtime, the Sports Minister said if they try and push this through the government will likely implement a fan lead review of football, there wasn’t any detail but that could be interesting if it comes to pass, I suspect it’s unlikely though as there is too much dosh involved.

The Tory Manifesto apparently promised a fan lead review - BoJo probably thought it had been forgotten but now they will use it as another wave to populism!

By the way, if we had not got relegated, how do you think Smith & Jones would have voted?

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Just now, Jim Smith said:

Its not better than the status quo. Its a horrific outcome for British football in the long term. I hope the government step in and do not allow it to happen. 

What? Much better to let EFL clubs go to the wall. Much better to have a massive financial gap between the Champs and Prem? You don't want the Prem to share TV money with the EFL, Wembley, FA, Womens and Grass Roots Football

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1 minute ago, BigFish said:

What? Much better to let EFL clubs go to the wall. Much better to have a massive financial gap between the Champs and Prem? You don't want the Prem to share TV money with the EFL, Wembley, FA, Womens and Grass Roots Football

Of course I don;t want clubs to go to the wall but there are other ways of preventing that. It will be much more damaging for the English game in the long term if these a***holes are allowed to force this through off the back of the current covid forced desperation of the lower league clubs. Its pretty despicable but then no more than i'd expect form these two odious clubs and that utter, utter ****** Rick Parry. 

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20 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

The Tory Manifesto apparently promised a fan lead review - BoJo probably thought it had been forgotten but now they will use it as another wave to populism!

By the way, if we had not got relegated, how do you think Smith & Jones would have voted?

No different really. It would take a concerted effort for a club like us to really challenge the top 9 let alone 6. I would see us being a bit like Burnley in that regard. Play the first half of the season with one eye over your shoulder and the 2nd once safety is almost assured, playing for anything you can get.

That said, they are also a great example of the gulf between the top 6-9 and the rest. Qualifying for the Europa League has massively impacted on clubs without the financial clout. And has been a distraction seeing teams struggle to increase the quality of their squad to be able to genuinely compete on different fronts.

Something further highlighted with the substitution rules in project restart when having more subs only benefited teams with a subs bench that could walk into most other teams starting line ups.

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49 minutes ago, BigFish said:

What? Much better to let EFL clubs go to the wall. Much better to have a massive financial gap between the Champs and Prem? You don't want the Prem to share TV money with the EFL, Wembley, FA, Womens and Grass Roots Football

You seemingly can't see the wood for the trees here- you're obsessed with the money side of it and ignoring the historic shift in power if 6 teams can fundamentally dictate the rules of the competition.

6 teams want to negotiate their own TV rights? Done

6 teams don't want a new owner with cash to upset their cartel? Veto!

6 teams decide that they want B teams playing in League One/Two? Best not object paupers or we'll take away the cash that keeps you going.

6 teams decide their own new 15 player loan rules don't allow them to stockpile enough? Make it 20!

Football life for clubs lower down the pyramid will only improve long term by sorting out their own houses, not by essentially making themselves subservient to the whims of those at the top.

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Of course I don;t want clubs to go to the wall but there are other ways of preventing that. It will be much more damaging for the English game in the long term if these a***holes are allowed to force this through off the back of the current covid forced desperation of the lower league clubs. Its pretty despicable but then no more than i'd expect form these two odious clubs and that utter, utter ****** Rick Parry. 

Well, I think we can all agree with that. Has Parry actually to anybody else in the EFL hierarchy and/or to any of the EFL clubs before giving his wholehearted approval?

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5 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Well, I think we can all agree with that. Has Parry actually to anybody else in the EFL hierarchy and/or to any of the EFL clubs before giving his wholehearted approval?

I think so- general view is this proposal is quite popular amongst League 1 & 2 owners and I understand why- if you're a team like Fleetwood or Leyton Orient, with no real chance of getting into the top division you'll happily take the extra money as whether the top 6 can start rigging the rules for themselves likely won't change much for you.

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This will require a majority of Premier League teams to vote it through, right?  With that in mind I can't see this (in its current form) passing. 

As a lot of you have pointed out, this is a great deal for clubs who have no realistic chance or no ambition to get to the Premier League - but for those in the bottom half of the PL and the vast majority of Championship teams, and even some in L1 (Sunderland, the team in Blue) it is the first creak of the drawbridge being pulled up.

Leicester's title win was seen as a huge shock when they pulled it off, but they still had that opportunity, if this passes then there is absolutely zero chance of anything like that happening ever again.  At least West Ham (apparently one of the big '9') have the sense to notice that whilst they get some benefit from this plan, they've been flirting with relegation enough that it is detrimental to them too.

I'd be interested to see what the 'big 6' would do if the other 14 and a majority of Championship clubs proposed something along similar lines but stripped out the clear power grab, I bet it would be pilloried in the press.  Or perhaps they should just propose dumping them out of the league structure entirely, they can play their own little 6 team tournament with no European qualification.

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4 hours ago, king canary said:

I personally think hard salary caps are needed but I think you'd also need to implement one in the Premier League which just won't happen (certainly not under this proposal).

 

I think that hard salary caps would mean that the League structure would drift even further away from the EPL: any club getting promoted would face even greater problems and financial risks on promotion - try recruiting a promising player as a newly promoted club with the promise that we will give you "x" but you will only get a quarter of this if we are relegated again. Such a player would automatically favour being a reserve/ back up player in a more secure PL club. Bad for promoted clubs: bad for the player's long term development.

What we need is a more rigorous FFP - perhaps with EFL appointed auditors for all clubs to prevent sleight of hand?

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Just now, Badger said:

I think that hard salary caps would mean that the League structure would drift even further away from the EPL: any club getting promoted would face even greater problems and financial risks on promotion - try recruiting a promising player as a newly promoted club with the promise that we will give you "x" but you will only get a quarter of this if we are relegated again. Such a player would automatically favour being a reserve/ back up player in a more secure PL club. Bad for promoted clubs: bad for the player's long term development.

What we need is a more rigorous FFP - perhaps with EFL appointed auditors for all clubs to prevent sleight of hand?

Ffp is useless- it just reinforces existing hierarchies.

If you had a country wide cap which went up in reasonable stages it would work just fine. But it won't happen.

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33 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think so- general view is this proposal is quite popular amongst League 1 & 2 owners and I understand why- if you're a team like Fleetwood or Leyton Orient, with no real chance of getting into the top division you'll happily take the extra money as whether the top 6 can start rigging the rules for themselves likely won't change much for you.

Possibly, but not the answer to my point about whether he'd actually talked to the EFL in some form or other before giving the thumbs up, or even as it happens before getting involved in the plans in the first place.

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52 minutes ago, king canary said:

You seemingly can't see the wood for the trees here- you're obsessed with the money side of it and ignoring the historic shift in power if 6 teams can fundamentally dictate the rules of the competition.

The power shift has already happened, the 6 + 3 is where the money and the TV audience is

6 teams want to negotiate their own TV rights? Done

You are getting silly now, this retains collective negotiation

6 teams don't want a new owner with cash to upset their cartel? Veto!

Hypothetical straw man

6 teams decide that they want B teams playing in League One/Two? Best not object paupers or we'll take away the cash that keeps you going.

Hypothetical straw man

6 teams decide their own new 15 player loan rules don't allow them to stockpile enough? Make it 20!

Player farming is widespread and not going to change now. Why we even do it ourselves.

Football life for clubs lower down the pyramid will only improve long term by sorting out their own houses, not by essentially making themselves subservient to the whims of those at the top.

The cash is a lifeline, showing solidarity between the Prem and the so called grass roots. Without it the EFL is finished in its current form. The pyramid no longer exists with the Prem in a different universe to L1 & L2

 

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