Farke on Cantwell

[hogesar 9,615]

1 minute ago, Teemu’s right foot said:

Cantwell and Maddison are in completely different stratosphere’s in ability. 

Has literally nothing to do with the point being made. If anything, you're reaffirming my point that despite being very active on social media etc, Maddison is still playing with 'a completely different stratosphere in ability'

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

49 minutes ago, simmo_2 said:

How many chances has Kenny McLean created, how many goals has Kenny McLean scored.

Farkes absolute blind faith in this player will undoubtedly be his downfall. It’s going to be a Neil Adams season.

If anyone comes on here and say he is a defensive midfielder you are wrong because he can’t tackle also Farke said he can’t wait to move him up the pitch last year.

Cantwell and Buendia are at a completely higher level of player and remember Kenny McLean was not good enough to get in the promotion winning team.

Seriously mate what on earth are you on about???????

McLean got a bad injury at the beginning of the promotion winning season. When he regained fitness he came in to the team and stayed there!! He scored three goals and set up a number of others as we went on a fantastic run. 

Please don't rewrite history!! 

[hogesar 9,615]

4 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Seriously mate what on earth are you on about???????

McLean got a bad injury at the beginning of the promotion winning season. When he regained fitness he came in to the team and stayed there!! He scored three goals and set up a number of others as we went on a fantastic run. 

Please don't rewrite history!! 

I don't think Kenny has had a great start to the season, then again neither have most as of yet. But this weird determination to hate on him to the point of making things up is really bizarre but a common trait with football fans for some reason.

[curious yellow 184]

28 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

It has gone to his head which is abundantly clear from the remarks made by Farke and you must remind me when we had an on field attitude problem with Maddison. Did Maddison give it the oh look at me on social media ?

I think "oh look at me" is what social media is all about 

I don't remember any on field attitude problem with Cantwell, if there was why wasn't it dealt with at the time?

Didn't Maddison prefer gambling to playing for England? 

Farke has said that the players were distracted by transfer negotiations, I don't think this is unusual. 

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

19 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I don't think it is 'abundantly clear' there is anything wrong with his 'on field attitude' in those comments actually. Only because you want it to be because you clearly already dislike him.

It sounds like Farke would welcome him back in to the team if he gives 100% in training, that is literally all Farke has said. His standards in training have dropped a little, maybe his focus is not fully here, but as Farke mentions - it is understandable to an extent with the level of rumours. It sounds like Farke is pretty ruthless on the topic and it could very well be a small drop off in training to warrant being dropped. Of course we don't know the true extent, but I am not writing off either player coming back into the fray just yet. And I am not concluding with such certainty that either player has 'abundantly clear on field attitude problems'. Oh no wait my mistake it just applies to Cantwell and not Buendia doesn't it? Because of his long hair right?

Alex gave a great example earlier in the thread (or the other Cantwell one), about Pukki. He was dropped for a run of games for Drmic towards the end of last season, more than likely under similar circumstances to Cantwell and Buendia now. However because the issue was never pressed in the media to the same extent - nor were the rumours circulating quite in the same manor with the transfer window closed - Farke was never put in a position to comment publicly on it. Reading his comments in full I don't think they are particularly controversial or harsh overall. And I don't think we can draw too many conclusions yet, but we will see what unfolds in the coming weeks.

Actually Farke did give a public explanation of this. He pointed out that Pukki was on a very long run of not scoring from open play and that his confidence appeared to have dropped a bit. He said that under these circumstances he thought that Teemu would be more likely to score (and thereby boost his confidence) by coming on fresh towards the end of a game against a tiring defence. 

[ZLF 271]

I have no problem with the manager being frustrated with distracted, uncommitted players or putting out players stats where under-performing.  And ever since Russ was swiftly moved out any player not with the program finds themselves out - very consistent approach to that.

For emi it seems that he is training ok but "finding" niggles close to / on match day, lacking that eagerness  to play. 

Not sure who we play at cb next week though,  and i assume, all other things being equal, that Onel will also be out of the squad with just 3 goal contributions in 12 months?

 

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

6 minutes ago, curious yellow said:

I think "oh look at me" is what social media is all about 

I don't remember any on field attitude problem with Cantwell, if there was why wasn't it dealt with at the time?

Didn't Maddison prefer gambling to playing for England? 

Farke has said that the players were distracted by transfer negotiations, I don't think this is unusual. 

 

No! He didn't!!!!

Having originally been in the squad he picked up an injury and came home. He was then pictured in a casino at the time England were playing.

So he preferred gambling to watching England on TV.   Anyone who has watched any of the recent England games on TV will find this perfectly understandable.

(Oh - and brilliant goal and brilliant performance by Maddison yesterday against Man City). 

[simmo_2 6]

4 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Seriously mate what on earth are you on about???????

McLean got a bad injury at the beginning of the promotion winning season. When he regained fitness he came in to the team and stayed there!! He scored three goals and set up a number of others as we went on a fantastic run. 

Please don't rewrite history!! 

Sorry, you are totally wrong. Look at the line up when we beat Leeds away.

His goals and assists I am talking about since Man City at home last season.

like I said Farkes blind faith in him will be the managers downfall. 
Seriously do you rate Kenny McLean anything better than a championship bit part player?

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

8 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Actually Farke did give a public explanation of this. He pointed out that Pukki was on a very long run of not scoring from open play and that his confidence appeared to have dropped a bit. He said that under these circumstances he thought that Teemu would be more likely to score (and thereby boost his confidence) by coming on fresh towards the end of a game against a tiring defence. 

Thanks for that Thirsty, I was not aware. Poor example then!

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

11 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

This is not a criticism but as far as I can see not one poster on this thread really knows what has gone on with Cantwell and Buendia for them to be dropped and publicly criticised by the coach. Given that, I am happy to trust Farke's judgment unless it becomes obvious that he has greatly over-reacted. And if he hadn't said anything the argument here would have been that the fans were owed some kind of explanation.

The Davitt piece today sums up the situation well; and I suspect is accurate as far as how necessary it was for Farke to act.

Edited September 28, 2020 by PurpleCanary

[Ray 111]

4 minutes ago, ZLF said:

I have no problem with the manager being frustrated with distracted, uncommitted players or putting out players stats where under-performing.  And ever since Russ was swiftly moved out any player not with the program finds themselves out - very consistent approach to that.

For emi it seems that he is training ok but "finding" niggles close to / on match day, lacking that eagerness  to play. 

Not sure who we play at cb next week though,  and i assume, all other things being equal, that Onel will also be out of the squad with just 3 goal contributions in 12 months?

ZLF, there is a massive difference between the situation with Russ and the current situation, a more committed player you will not find, the issue was with his influence in the dressing room, insomuch the players looked to him not DF, at no stage was he disruptive and it wasn't his fault the players thought more of him than the manager, it was the manager's self image that could not harness the opportunity of having Russ's leadership ability alongside him.

 

 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

Just now, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Thanks for that Thirsty, I was not aware. Poor example then!

My point still stands, which was that Teemu did not throw his toys out of the pram and so therefore Farke was not put in the position whereby he had to defend his decision so aggressively, therefore not gaining media and fan speculation like the Emi and Todd omissions have. I don’t know Todd, and I don’t know what he’s done exactly, but what I can safely say is that the likes of Teemu, Zimbo, Onel for examples are of a certain character, and I’m very confident that they wouldn’t upset the apple cart if Daniel had to have a word with them. That appears not to be the case with Todd and Emi.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

6 minutes ago, simmo_2 said:

Sorry, you are totally wrong. Look at the line up when we beat Leeds away.

His goals and assists I am talking about since Man City at home last season.

like I said Farkes blind faith in him will be the managers downfall. 
Seriously do you rate Kenny McLean anything better than a championship bit part player?

Look mate - when you've got something totally wrong the best thing you can do is hold up your hands and admit it rather than keeping digging yourself into a bigger hole.

I was pulling you up on your totally untrue comment that 'McLean wasn't good enough to get in our promotion winning team'. 

He didn't start the away game at Leeds because he was still making his way back from a very serious injury ( he came on as a late sub in that game).

Stop making things up!!

 

[Indy 3,283]

If we just reset to this season and the three games.

McClean has been ok at best, but he’s got a knack of being the player who gets robbed or misplaced pass which leads to a goal, unlucky or just lazy.

He certainly can’t be isolated for criticism as Skipp was outstanding yesterday no one has really shone to the levels we know they can perform at.

Maybe being thumped each week in the last 13 premiership games has taken its toll on the mindset and we just have a squad of solid mid road championship level players, which could gel again or might not rebound from the Premiership season we’ve just had.

Those who’ve come in need to reignite our club, we have some solid signings and Placheta who’s very exciting prospect.

So after three games we’re looking at potentially losing two of our best players, pretty sure whichever way you want to see it, the club have a vested interest in selling them after a highlight season for them, have a mediocre season in the championship both will lose a lot of value. All this personal ****e spouted by Farke is pretty standard stuff to deflect the reason onto the player wanting to leave, but I’ve not seen either really spitting their dummy out more reaffirming the clubs view that for the right price they can go!

The transfer window should have closed a week before the season started to kill this type of ****e!

Edited September 28, 2020 by Indy

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 minute ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Look mate - when you've got something totally wrong the best thing you can do is hold up your hands and admit it rather than keeping digging yourself into a bigger hole.

I was pulling you up on your totally untrue comment that 'McLean wasn't good enough to get in our promotion winning team'. 

He didn't start the away game at Leeds because he was still making his way back from a very serious injury ( he came on as a late sub in that game).

Stop making things up!!

 

Yep McLean was out for the first 2/3s of the season, came in due to Leitner's injury (I believe) and then was not dropped thereafter. And had a hand in plenty of our goals in the final run in.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

I have no problem with what Farke has said or that he's come out and said it. 

These players are paid by the club, the club and fans have an expectation that they earn their money and if they are not earning their money then why should the focus be on Farke as he's been let down as much as us fans have with the way in which they behaved. 

If they want that move so desperately then get on the pitch, do your stuff and showcase yourself, I suspect at the moment there will be clubs now looking at these 2 a little differently. 

 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

4 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

My point still stands, which was that Teemu did not throw his toys out of the pram and so therefore Farke was not put in the position whereby he had to defend his decision so aggressively, therefore not gaining media and fan speculation like the Emi and Todd omissions have. I don’t know Todd, and I don’t know what he’s done exactly, but what I can safely say is that the likes of Teemu, Zimbo, Onel for examples are of a certain character, and I’m very confident that they wouldn’t upset the apple cart if Daniel had to have a word with them. That appears not to be the case with Todd and Emi.

That's true, but I suppose its the initial reasoning which separates the two examples. Pukki's was purely on the pitch - sounds like Cantwell's and Buendia's was mostly off it. Although Farke did sight some on-field reasoning as part of his comments, I think it is pretty evident that both players would at the very least make the bench (and usually start) if their off-field behaviour was truly 100%.

I agree with what you are saying RE the response to the decision however. Let's hope we see something positive from them next weekend.

As much as I commend Farke for the standards he has set and for standing by them so strongly, it could have a pretty big knock-on effect in terms of transfer fee incomings if both Cantwell and Buendia react badly to these comments. However, it is worth noting that this tangible sacrifice is part of an intangible benefit in professionalism and culture within the squad. It is surely a good message for the youngsters coming up through the ranks to keep their heads down, and perhaps the club will be stronger in the long run as a result as our next gems to come through behave more like Aarons / Lewis / Godfrey. Unfortunately, we won't ever truly get to see this benefit in some form of tangible measure (not in the same way as a good transfer fee) so I'm sure there'll be plenty of critics if things go south unfortunately.

Perhaps a learning curve for Farke, if things are to go wrong with both players, he should maybe keep some cards closer to his chest in future rather than handing negotiating clubs the initiative quite to this extent. Anything short of £20m for either player (and even £25m to be truthful) would be extremely disappointing - even in the current market.

We will see what happens. But I think there is probably a happy middle ground, where he makes the bulk of these points to the players behind closed doors without alerting other clubs of our true position.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

19 minutes ago, Indy said:

If we just reset to this season and the three games.

McClean has been ok at best, but he’s got a knack of being the player who gets robbed or misplaced pass which leads to a goal, unlucky or just lazy.

He certainly can’t be isolated for criticism as Skipp was outstanding yesterday no one has really shone to the levels we know they can perform at.

Maybe being thumped each week in the last 13 premiership games has taken its toll on the mindset and we just have a squad of solid mid road championship level players, which could gel again or might not rebound from the Premiership season we’ve just had.

Those who’ve come in need to reignite our club, we have some solid signings and Placheta who’s very exciting prospect.

So after three games we’re looking at potentially losing two of our best players, pretty sure whichever way you want to see it, the club have a vested interest in selling them after a highlight season for them, have a mediocre season in the championship both will lose a lot of value. All this personal ****e spouted by Farke is pretty standard stuff to deflect the reason onto the player wanting to leave, but I’ve not seen either really spitting their dummy out more reaffirming the clubs view that for the right price they can go!

The transfer window should have closed a week before the season started to kill this type of ****e!

But if you're talking about this season then even that isn't really true. Skipp gave away the penalty to Preston and Skipp and Hernandez were both equally responsible for Preston's second goal by ball watching. 

McLean lost the ball near the halfway line yesterday, but even then a lot had to happen before it ended up in the back of our net. 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

I think Paddy has said this as well as anyone can, which I’ve quoted below, and exactly the reason why there was always going to be a compromise in attacking creativity against Bournemouth - a one off match by all accounts. Being a football manager really is not as simple as just playing your ‘best team’, some people must wake up and understand what’s better for the greater good.

Anyone who’s watched football for any length of time will know the team of superstars operating in a less than healthy atmosphere will nearly always lose to the slightly less talented bunch whom exhibit great togetherness and unity, and who give 110% sweat blood and tears for each other from the first minute to the last. In fact, that has been a hallmark of some of our finest seasons. 

‘That is another factor that should not be dismissed. If Farke’s feels his authority is being challenged there is a whole dressing room watching how this plays out. To include either Cantwell or Buendia in his match day squad after a week when they have failed to reach the standards he demands of others on the training pitch would mean leaving out a Jordan Hugill or a Josh Martin or an Adam Idah. With all the attendant fallout that might induce and negative ripples around a squad.‘

[Alex Moss 2,165]

9 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

That's true, but I suppose its the initial reasoning which separates the two examples. Pukki's was purely on the pitch - sounds like Cantwell's and Buendia's was mostly off it. Although Farke did sight some on-field reasoning as part of his comments, I think it is pretty evident that both players would at the very least make the bench (and usually start) if their off-field behaviour was truly 100%.

I agree with what you are saying RE the response to the decision however. Let's hope we see something positive from them next weekend.

As much as I commend Farke for the standards he has set and for standing by them so strongly, it could have a pretty big knock-on effect in terms of transfer fee incomings if both Cantwell and Buendia react badly to these comments. However, it is worth noting that this tangible sacrifice is part of an intangible benefit in professionalism and culture within the squad. It is surely a good message for the youngsters coming up through the ranks to keep their heads down, and perhaps the club will be stronger in the long run as a result as our next gems to come through behave more like Aarons / Lewis / Godfrey. Unfortunately, we won't ever truly get to see this benefit in some form of tangible measure (not in the same way as a good transfer fee) so I'm sure there'll be plenty of critics if things go south unfortunately.

Perhaps a learning curve for Farke, if things are to go wrong with both players, he should maybe keep some cards closer to his chest in future rather than handing negotiating clubs the initiative quite to this extent. Anything short of £20m for either player (and even £25m to be truthful) would be extremely disappointing - even in the current market.

We will see what happens. But I think there is probably a happy middle ground, where he makes the bulk of these points to the players behind closed doors without alerting other clubs of our true position.

I’ve run out of likes but good post, Hank.

Will just add my perspective on the potential impact of the final transfer fees though, which appears to differ to other posters (not saying they’re wrong though, just my take)

If the value of either Todd or Emi recedes by a few million, and let’s face it, that’s what it’ll beat worst, then it is a small price to pay compared to the ramifications of setting a precedent around the football club that players can say and do what they please. Farke should never be undermined, nor should the long term dressing room spirit. We have to set a standard here for the long term good of the club. And if that means a couple of players leaving for a bit less than was expected, then I’d take that over impacting our dressing room for the rest of the season every day of the week. We still have an excellent squad, and if if we need to bring in a little quality in AMF to complete the jigsaw puzzle then I’m sure we will. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

32 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

I’ve run out of likes but good post, Hank.

Will just add my perspective on the potential impact of the final transfer fees though, which appears to differ to other posters (not saying they’re wrong though, just my take)

If the value of either Todd or Emi recedes by a few million, and let’s face it, that’s what it’ll beat worst, then it is a small price to pay compared to the ramifications of setting a precedent around the football club that players can say and do what they please. Farke should never be undermined, nor should the long term dressing room spirit. We have to set a standard here for the long term good of the club. And if that means a couple of players leaving for a bit less than was expected, then I’d take that over impacting our dressing room for the rest of the season every day of the week. We still have an excellent squad, and if if we need to bring in a little quality in AMF to complete the jigsaw puzzle then I’m sure we will. 

Yes I definitely agree with that trade off, no question.

But if this is the outcome we reach, I will be left wondering - and Farke / Webber probably will too - was there a way to get this point out to the team without hampering those fees? I.e. maintaining both the tangible and intangible benefits? It is a very difficult position for Farke to deal with so I will not criticise, but he may look back on this and think that he maybe should've manipulated the media a bit more tactfully.

I have to believe that Farke's comments were 100% good intentioned, in that he strongly believes both players will react positively and now get their heads down. But he may not have considered how the fans have interpreted the comments as part of this. Two threads full of abuse towards Cantwell on here, with posters like Branston calling him 'Cuntwell',  I have not checked but if this forum is a measure I imagine twitter and Instagram etc will be absolutely awash with abuse from fans directly aimed at Cantwell. This is not good and may well tip the balance away from Farke's reach.

I'm certain Farke wouldn't have considered this reaction to Cantwell when making those comments, the fact that Buendia is in exactly the same boat but has received little to no flack whatsoever is testament to that, seems like this is partly agenda driven from the fans - and that's not to say that either do not deserve criticism, of course they do.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Hank shoots Skyler

[shefcanary 2,383]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

The Davitt piece today sums up the situation well; and I suspect is accurate as far as how necessary it was for Farke to act.

Yes, having calmed down a bit, Farke's anger is more st the way the agent's for both players are lobbying in the background!  Both players are obviously listening more to their agents than to Farke.  If they truly want to move, they probsbly need to be in the team to market themselves.  Farke has snapped their reins.

PS: I see Rio Ferdinand is back from his travels and working for Godders again. 🤨

[Doomcaster 10]

Just sell him - for whatever

£5m or £10m - just sell him

[Doomcaster 10]

Sell Cantwell at his top ££££

[Dr Greenthumb 746]

On 27/09/2020 at 19:08, The Great Mass Debater said:

"I love this player but last league goal was a long time ago and last assist was 40 games ago," DF says of Cantwell. "You have to show you are switched on and fully focused."

 

 

If he has really said that then my eyebrows are rather raised

Interested to see Mclean and Rupps stats compared to Cantwells! 
 

Farke has his favourites, it’s no secret. But his alienating of other players is borderline annoying. He came out and lambasted Buendia before Everton. Has he ever thought Buendia should be kept up the pitch and not sitting on the edge of our area every time! 

[FenwayFrank 2,456]

18 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Interested to see Mclean and Rupps stats compared to Cantwells! 
 

They’re not in the side to do the same job though are they ?

[Dr Greenthumb 746]

1 hour ago, FenwayFrank said:

They’re not in the side to do the same job though are they ?

To an extent, yes. The attacking players have to come so far back at times. I’m not a huge Cantwell fan. I also understand Buendias temperance isn’t great (at times). I am just interested in a comparison of stats.

Butt going with your point...

Mclean is in the team to tackle. He doesn’t do that much. Compare that to Cantwells chance creation (which he doesn’t do that much). Why is Cantwell the only one being lambasted?

[hogesar 9,615]

4 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

To an extent, yes. The attacking players have to come so far back at times. I’m not a huge Cantwell fan. I also understand Buendias temperance isn’t great (at times). I am just interested in a comparison of stats.

Butt going with your point...

Mclean is in the team to tackle. He doesn’t do that much. Compare that to Cantwells chance creation (which he doesn’t do that much). Why is Cantwell the only one being lambasted?

If you're referring to criticism from Farke then he's answered that in what he said. I'm guessing Mclean and others are still training at a high level whereas Cantwell hasn't been.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Surely it's not beyond a player's comprehension that they know they have to be 100% at it in training, whatever the situation? 

I guess you have agents who feed the ego of their clients, then once they and the prospect of moving for big money gets into their heads, they lose it a bit.   If they have anything about them they will respond to the challenge - but if their ego can't let them do that, they will likely never play for us again.

I like the fact we have a tough manager who says it how it is and ultimately, it's the club that matters, not individuals and if players get their heads turned or lose their way, that is their fault, not the club's.  In that way, my respect goes out even more to Max, who despite the talk of his future, has not fallen into the trap of letting it spoil his focus.  The greatest players don't let their ego get in the way of their football.