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New Tory Leader

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1 hour ago, RobJames said:

Thank you for making my point for me. PR is about head office control. Toe the line, or you don't get selected. Where the local democracy when you do not know who you will have representing you. Differing views on subjects will never be represented in Parliament. Because the local party cannot select the candidate they choose.

Again, you are not addressing the problem. But merely pushing an anti democratic 'solution'. Anyone not following the party line is out, as you state. So whatever is said on the floor of the house still comes down to the vote. Parties already know which way their loyal MPs will vote. So it is then that deals stitched up behind closed doors. That is not a warning. That is the reality of PR. And the danger is that once voters get a whiff of this stitch up. We will have even less interest.

 

 

Don't think that is a valid criticism of PR at all since it happens in all systems which are party based, i.e. all of them - the Tory party in the 2019 election being a prime example of central office tightly controlling selection that was in theory only locally based.

PR may not be perfect or a total panacea for all the problems of our current totally dysfunctional electoral system, but it unquestionably delivers a better correspondence between voting numbers and representation in Parliament which is therefore, by definition, more democratic than FPTP - which as someone, I forget who, said earlier is the worst of all worlds and long abandoned by modern democracies.

Only us and the US, it seems, cling to centuries old electoral systems which are demonstrably failing to produce both democratically elected and even vaguely competent governments.

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"and cannot be gerrymandered "

Err, that's exactly what it does do !  By having everything centralised, you remove local democratic control. If PR was OK then there would not need to be another level. The biggest flaw, and one I suspect you are aware of. That is why you are ignoring it. Is having 'head office' controlling the grassroots. Having a few 'grey heads' deciding behind closed doors. To cite Switzerland is not to understand the political and social make up of that country. Even referendums there attract at best 40-45%. Being binary they come down to my point. They are not a mechanism whereby every voice is heard, and acted upon where possible. It is yes or no. As with the UK referendum. And simply causes more division. Despite repeated requests you have failed to answer why having MPs imposed on local voters. And having decisions made behind closed doors is OK. That is what happens with PR. Not your idealistic dreamland.

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15 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Don't think that is a valid criticism of PR at all since it happens in all systems which are party based, i.e. all of them - the Tory party in the 2019 election being a prime example of central office tightly controlling selection that was in theory only locally based.

PR may not be perfect or a total panacea for all the problems of our current totally dysfunctional electoral system, but it unquestionably delivers a better correspondence between voting numbers and representation in Parliament which is therefore, by definition, more democratic than FPTP - which as someone, I forget who, said earlier is the worst of all worlds and long abandoned by modern democracies.

Only us and the US, it seems, cling to centuries old electoral systems which are demonstrably failing to produce both democratically elected and even vaguely competent governments.

Slowly we are getting there. You finally accept that having a head office imposing candidates is undemocratic. Yet you advocate a system where that is not a choice, but an absolute requirement. And rather than use previous experience in the UK. Check how other countries work. You offer up some idealistic video. There is no coming together. It is simply a case of capital punishment or not.  I am not advocating FTTP. But I sure as hell am not going to support a corrupt system that is open to all many of shady deals.

The problem lies with voter engagement. How many turned out to vote in Bexleyheath. How many will turn out in Shropshire. PR will not deal with that. It will most likely turn people off further. As they recognise that how awful it may have been when 44% of the vote held sway. It is a darn sight worse when 8% hold sway. As the deciding vote. As to what we have in the way of a voting system. Then that owes much to how post war electoral systems were set up. And you would do well to read up on how the Libdems were 'kebabed' and sold out after the 2010 election.

Edited by RobJames

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On 05/12/2021 at 13:21, ricardo said:

Yep, mid term blues but if thats the best Labour can do then it won't be near enough when Mr Teflon bounces back. If he doesn't then the Tories will just do another Dr Who reincarnation.

Too many voting options on the left and revised boundaries is too big a hill to climb next time round. Come 2027/28 then it might be Buggins turn again. Like NCFC managers, all governments run out of road eventually.

You're right. Especially as SKS has reincarnated a few like Yvette Cooper who is just a throwback to Blair's New Labour.

Where are the Labour MP's like Benn who would question the leadership in public. SKS is just thinking that his New Labour is going to convince the electorate they are any different to Boris.

In fact the two of them should unite for another remake of Dumb and Dumber.

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36 minutes ago, RobJames said:

Slowly we are getting there. You finally accept that having a head office imposing candidates is undemocratic. Yet you advocate a system where that is not a choice, but an absolute requirement. And rather than use previous experience in the UK. Check how other countries work. You offer up some idealistic video. There is no coming together. It is simply a case of capital punishment or not.  I am not advocating FTTP. But I sure as hell am not going to support a corrupt system that is open to all many of shady deals.

The problem lies with voter engagement. How many turned out to vote in Bexleyheath. How many will turn out in Shropshire. PR will not deal with that. It will most likely turn people off further. As they recognise that how awful it may have been when 44% of the vote held sway. It is a darn sight worse when 8% hold sway. As the deciding vote. As to what we have in the way of a voting system. Then that owes much to how post war electoral systems were set up. And you would do well to read up on how the Libdems were 'kebabed' and sold out after the 2010 election.

I think you need to reread what I said which was not that having head office imposing candidates was undemocratic but that it wasn't a valid criticism of PR because it happens in all systems - completely different thing.

I don't disagree that voter engagement is a problem but it is very much a secondary problem to the fact that under the FPTP system the represention elected is not remotely representative of what the electors who are engaged actually voted for.

I would further suggest that voter engagement is so poor in the UK precisely because the FPTP system renders the vast majority of votes meaningless thereby massively reducing the motivation to vote at all for the majority of the electorate - a problem which PR fixes at a stroke.

Wriggle whichever way you like but FPTP is an absolutely cr@p system both in theory and in practice, and you only need to look at how it is working in the handful of countries still using it to see the truth of that. It may have made some sense 300 or 400 years ago, but it makes no sense at all and has nothing whatsoever to recommend it now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Creative Midfielder
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18 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I think you need to reread what I said which was not that having head office imposing candidates was undemocratic but that it wasn't a valid criticism of PR because it happens in all systems - completely different thing.

I don't disagree that voter engagement is a problem but it is very much a secondary problem to the fact that under the FPTP system the represention elected is not remotely representative of what the electors who are engaged actually voted for.

I would further suggest that voter engagement is so poor in the UK precisely because the FPTP system renders the vast majority of votes meaningless thereby massively reducing the motivation to vote at all for the majority of the electorate - a problem which PR fixes at a stroke.

Wriggle whichever way you like but FPTP is an absolutely cr@p system both in theory and in practice, and you only need to look at how it is working in the handful of countries still using it to see the truth of that. It may have made some sense 300 or 400 years ago, but it makes no sense at all and has nothing whatsoever to recommend it now.

Exactly this - provided it's MMP, which defeats the local elective argument at a stroke as the populace can still choose that and get them elected if they win that actual vote. As that video showed, all that happens is that the number of seats are doubled so all voters can select a local representative as well as a party and therefore not necessarily double up - you could pick the Tory candidate but the LibDems as as party.

Unless you go full direct democracy, you'll not get every voice represented all the time. Not even Switzerland goes there. However, regular referendums means that you can take part and vote regularly - if you wish.

The inevitable long-term side-effect of FPTP is what we see now. Two monolithic parties, gerrymandering of seats, and a toxic political climate where "if you're not with us, you're against us", squeezing other parties out of the discussion when it comes to actually gaining power. Which is probably why the media were ****ting it at the thought of a hung parliament in 2010.

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I haven't studied the PR alternatives, but there has to be at least one that is better than FPTP, which in the UK is undeniably - as US soldiers used to say - fubar.

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That Teflon bloke is still about Herman.

Redfield & Wilton Strategies

Westminster Voting Intention (6 Dec):

Conservative 38% (–)
Labour 36% (–)
Liberal Democrat 9% (-1)
Green 6% (–)
Scottish National Party 4% (–)
Reform UK 4% (–)
Other 2% (–)

Changes +/- 29 Nov

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On 06/12/2021 at 16:39, PurpleCanary said:

I haven't studied the PR alternatives, but there has to be at least one that is better than FPTP, which in the UK is undeniably - as US soldiers used to say - fubar.

AV has and always will be better than our current system. It will never be adopted in this country though, every party that wins a majority thinks it's going to keep getting one forever so sees no reason to reform.

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20 hours ago, ricardo said:

That Teflon bloke is still about Herman.

Redfield & Wilton Strategies

Westminster Voting Intention (6 Dec):

Conservative 38% (–)
Labour 36% (–)
Liberal Democrat 9% (-1)
Green 6% (–)
Scottish National Party 4% (–)
Reform UK 4% (–)
Other 2% (–)

Changes +/- 29 Nov

That's deep into hung parliament territory there Ricardo though. I know you are just ribbing Herman, but if I were Boris Johnson I would have a few worries when polling like this. He needs a Majority or a very strong minority given that he has virtually no natural allies from any other parties outside the DUP and elements of the UUP (even that might not help him much depending on whatever happens with the unionists in NI.) 

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20 hours ago, ricardo said:

That Teflon bloke is still about Herman.

Redfield & Wilton Strategies

Westminster Voting Intention (6 Dec):

Conservative 38% (–)
Labour 36% (–)
Liberal Democrat 9% (-1)
Green 6% (–)
Scottish National Party 4% (–)
Reform UK 4% (–)
Other 2% (–)

Changes +/- 29 Nov

 

 

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14 minutes ago, 1902 said:

That's deep into hung parliament territory there Ricardo though. I know you are just ribbing Herman, but if I were Boris Johnson I would have a few worries when polling like this. He needs a Majority or a very strong minority given that he has virtually no natural allies from any other parties outside the DUP and elements of the UUP (even that might not help him much depending on whatever happens with the unionists in NI.) 

 

 

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The problem for the Tories is that the polls have been moving away from them slowly but steadily. For quite some time now. The problems coming down the line will only increase this. Johnson is now seen as a liability. However, no one wants to take up the reins with what lies in store

 

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Run those figures through an election calculus and it shows Tories losing 92 seats. A quarter of their seats. Yes it is another poll showing the movement away from the Tories. And there is a long way to go. Much can and will, change. However, a good many Tories will be wondering how much worse it will get. More so now the undead of the Brexit Party are back

 

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On 05/12/2021 at 22:42, PurpleCanary said:

The Tories may win the next election but Johnson (assuming he is still PM) won't recover to be the vote-winner he has been.

Unless of course the electorate entirely consists of morons who think a dog's life is worth more than that of a human being.

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52 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Unless of course the electorate entirely consists of morons who think a dog's life is worth more than that of a human being.

No comment.😀

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Update.

"No10 claims Trudy Harrison was not acting in her role as PM's PPS - even though that title is included on her letter "This letter was nothing to do with Ms Harrison’s role as the PM’s PPS, she was acting in her capacity as a constituency MP"

John Stevens, Daily Mail.

Hmmm.....

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10 minutes ago, Herman said:

Update.

"No10 claims Trudy Harrison was not acting in her role as PM's PPS - even though that title is included on her letter "This letter was nothing to do with Ms Harrison’s role as the PM’s PPS, she was acting in her capacity as a constituency MP"

John Stevens, Daily Mail.

Hmmm.....

That is so obviously a lie. Since when would the Foreign Office, the Home Office and the MoD pass on all that information to a mere constituency MP and delegate to her the serious job of telling Farthing he had permission to fly out. "You are therefore authorised to proceed." That is an official permission from the government.

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They're being attacked from many angles and their lies are getting more and more desperate. What a shame.

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59 minutes ago, Herman said:

They're being attacked from many angles and their lies are getting more and more desperate. What a shame.

It's not a good sign when even Ant and Dec are going after Boris 😀

 

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I think anybody who still supports or believes this government after tonight's 'party' disclosures must like being lied too and laughed at.

I guess it's a form of he so called Stockholm syndrome. 

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Have you all seen the video ?
Surely this is the final straw !. For those that haven’t seen it, those at the party that didn’t happen, a few days later held a fake press conference to not just laugh about it but take the p*** at the rest of Britain. And apparently he did nip into the party.

@Rock The Boat asked me the other day why I should hate somebody so much, well the fat t*** has answered the question for me. Last year while my father in law was dying, and my wife couldn’t even see him Downing Street were having a p*** up and laughing at our plight. In addition how can anyone support somebody that put dogs before humans, those humans actually fought for us.

Go Johnson tomorrow.

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lol like anything will come of this. The government have us all on strings and their core supporters will all be voting for them again in a couple of years.

It'll be interesting to see them try bring in another lockdown after this but no doubt most of our citizens are complete cucks and will lap it up.

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29 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Have you all seen the video ?
Surely this is the final straw !. For those that haven’t seen it, those at the party that didn’t happen, a few days later held a fake press conference to not just laugh about it but take the p*** at the rest of Britain. And apparently he did nip into the party.

@Rock The Boat asked me the other day why I should hate somebody so much, well the fat t*** has answered the question for me. Last year while my father in law was dying, and my wife couldn’t even see him Downing Street were having a p*** up and laughing at our plight. In addition how can anyone support somebody that put dogs before humans, those humans actually fought for us.

Go Johnson tomorrow.

You do wonder if ever there should be a vote of confidence in the government it should be now. Let's see all those Torys who continue to support him be named and shamed,  complicit in this lie.

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