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7 hours ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

As you are an ardent Unionist, here is something you call diatribe, whilst others call it history. Englands relation with its colonies does not include repression of their democratic choices, and they have a right to self determination, without the say so of the colonizers. Enjoy reading something else than gate keeper news feeds.

https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/10/19/whose-side-is-she-really-on/

 

The problem with that article is the author keeps referring to everything as English. As in English Parliament, English law etc. when it isn't English, it's UK Parliament, UK law etc. the difference is not semantics but significant. But yes, in theory Sturgeon could declare unilateral independence if she wished, and try and make it stick. But as I said to you before, Sturgeon has the best of all worlds right now - all the power in Scotland with none of the responsibility. Anything goes wrong and she can blame that lot south of the border.

If independence did ultimately happen then all the problems relating to independence would fall on Sturgeon's head and her personal, cozy setup would be gone forever. 

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1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

The problem with that article is the author keeps referring to everything as English. As in English Parliament, English law etc. when it isn't English, it's UK Parliament, UK law etc. the difference is not semantics but significant. But yes, in theory Sturgeon could declare unilateral independence if she wished, and try and make it stick. But as I said to you before, Sturgeon has the best of all worlds right now - all the power in Scotland with none of the responsibility. Anything goes wrong and she can blame that lot south of the border.

If independence did ultimately happen then all the problems relating to independence would fall on Sturgeon's head and her personal, cozy setup would be gone forever. 

Boris seems to be able to pass the buck easily. 

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9 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

True, the majority of people are doing alright, even though the media tries its best to persuade us otherwise. Labour doesn't have much to say to people who are doing alright. 

No, because the current leader is one of them.

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8 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

I'll also agree with you on the social responsibility angle where there is a lot to be done. I feel the left are tackling this issue in the wrong way. For example, everyone agrees insulation is a sound strategy but blocking the motorway is not the way to get social change. There's a huge area up for grabs if done in the right way

I don't think you can say all the protesters are from the left. I think many are more concerned with the planet than politics or allegiances.

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10 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

I'll also agree with you on the social responsibility angle where there is a lot to be done. I feel the left are tackling this issue in the wrong way. For example, everyone agrees insulation is a sound strategy but blocking the motorway is not the way to get social change. There's a huge area up for grabs if done in the right way

I'd love to hear what the 'right way' is because people have been campaigning about better insulation for at least 15 years and quite frankly no one took a blind bit of notice until IB blocked a few motorways. All of a sudden it was headlines news and apparently everyone agrees its a sound strategy - admittedly not to the extent of actually doing anything about it but even so I'd say that was a pretty big win for IB and one that could only have been achieved by the somewhat extreme action they took.

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17 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

The problem with that article is the author keeps referring to everything as English. As in English Parliament, English law etc. when it isn't English, it's UK Parliament, UK law etc. the difference is not semantics but significant. But yes, in theory Sturgeon could declare unilateral independence if she wished, and try and make it stick. But as I said to you before, Sturgeon has the best of all worlds right now - all the power in Scotland with none of the responsibility. Anything goes wrong and she can blame that lot south of the border.

If independence did ultimately happen then all the problems relating to independence would fall on Sturgeon's head and her personal, cozy setup would be gone forever. 

she will fall on her own sword anyway, the SNP is loosing members and their belligerence will not last much longer.

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14 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I'd love to hear what the 'right way' is because people have been campaigning about better insulation for at least 15 years and quite frankly no one took a blind bit of notice until IB blocked a few motorways. All of a sudden it was headlines news and apparently everyone agrees its a sound strategy - admittedly not to the extent of actually doing anything about it but even so I'd say that was a pretty big win for IB and one that could only have been achieved by the somewhat extreme action they took.

Agree with this. Whilst I also think blocking a motorway is hardly sensible just what do people do to raise awareness? CND was unpopular, as were the Greenham women....you can go on and on with examples throughy history....change in mining practices, improved working conditions, changes in public health....whether marches, sit-ins, legal challenges, petitions...all ways to try and make your small voice heard. Same with young people and XR and similar groups across the country. Yet, instead of welcoming different views we have a government now that wants to legislate against such displays of challenge. 

You've talked a few times about China and curtailing of civil rights on here @Rock The Boat

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Expecting consistently disenfranchised sectors of a population to not act out is snowflake-y in the extreme. And when civil action completely fails, why not do something a bit more radical?

Pretty sure the suffragettes did far more shocking things than blocking a motorway.

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4 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Expecting consistently disenfranchised sectors of a population to not act out is snowflake-y in the extreme. And when civil action completely fails, why not do something a bit more radical?

Pretty sure the suffragettes did far more shocking things than blocking a motorway.

Which ones would they have blocked?😂

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On 20/10/2021 at 13:46, TheGunnShow said:

Expecting consistently disenfranchised sectors of a population to not act out is snowflake-y in the extreme. And when civil action completely fails, why not do something a bit more radical?

Pretty sure the suffragettes did far more shocking things than blocking a motorway.

It did take four years (1914-1918) of the suffragettes not protesting for them to achieve their aim.

Maybe these protestors could do the same,  promise to not protest and to demonstrate that climate activists can fulfill a worthwhile role in society in return for an Act of Parliament down the line....

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13 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

It did take four years (1914-1918) of the suffragettes not protesting for them to achieve their aim.

Maybe these protestors could do the same,  promise to not protest and to demonstrate that climate activists can fulfill a worthwhile role in society in return for an Act of Parliament down the line....

That might work if you are willing to completely ignore the massive amount of protest (including bombing) from 1903 right up to WWI. But that, I'm sure,isn't something you would suggest we do if we wish to maintain historical accuracy..

Edited by horsefly

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12 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

It did take four years (1914-1918) of the suffragettes not protesting for them to achieve their aim.

Maybe these protestors could do the same,  promise to not protest and to demonstrate that climate activists can fulfill a worthwhile role in society in return for an Act of Parliament down the line....

Or we could start a world war to distract everyone. 

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17 minutes ago, horsefly said:

That might work if you are willing to completely ignore the massive amount of protest (including bombing) from 1903 right up to WWI. But that, I'm sure,isn't something you would suggest we do if we wish to maintain historical accuracy..

Its one of those big questions isn't it, Did militant suffragettes help or hinder the suffragist campaign? Probably along with, who did more to acheive the aim: pankhurst or fawcett, or kaiser bill?

People will arrogantly claim to have all the answers but the truth is  no one really knows.  Even MPs who voted through the legislation could not have known for sure from where their motivation came.

There are no absolute truths in our understanding of historical events, only ideas, opinions and hypotheses.

 

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28 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Its one of those big questions isn't it, Did militant suffragettes help or hinder the suffragist campaign? Probably along with, who did more to acheive the aim: pankhurst or fawcett, or kaiser bill?

People will arrogantly claim to have all the answers but the truth is  no one really knows.  Even MPs who voted through the legislation could not have known for sure from where their motivation came.

There are no absolute truths in our understanding of historical events, only ideas, opinions and hypotheses.

 

Often think of this photo BB. 

I realise we will never know for absolute sure but I'm convinced pressure over a period of time does get into the national psyche. Some of the claims on the poster are pushing it but I think as a message on a piece of card it is very well made!

 

 

Screenshot 2021-03-31 10.39.50.png

Edited by sonyc

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55 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Often think of this photo BB. 

I realise we will never know for absolute sure but I'm convinced pressure over a period of time does get into the national psyche. Some of the claims on the poster are pushing it but I think as a message on a piece of card it is very well made!

 

 

Screenshot 2021-03-31 10.39.50.png

It's one of those 'should have quite while you were ahead' boards that one.  He was doing OK until he got to CND, Arab spring, Hong Kong and HS2. At which point he may as well have written,   'sometimes annoying protests achieve nothing worthwhile'

One annoying protest I hope achieves nothing is the one where people go into an NHS Trust building and subject staff to a lecture on nuremburg code and 'serve' papers on them. I'm sure these guys have honestly held intentions , but they still need to go away

I've always imagined the UK, domestic, abolition of slavery movement to have been a rather genteel affair, with lots of Quakers speaking in soft voices over a bowl of porridge, whilst wearing  some nice badges made by that kindly Mr Wedgwood.   I don't think I want to be told this is wrong 

Edited by Barbe bleu

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2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

It did take four years (1914-1918) of the suffragettes not protesting for them to achieve their aim.

Maybe these protestors could do the same,  promise to not protest and to demonstrate that climate activists can fulfill a worthwhile role in society in return for an Act of Parliament down the line....

When do they not have a worthwhile role in society?

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Personally as to 'Insulate Britain' although their aims are laudable their actions are not and lose them the general public support.

A first protest, perhaps two OK. Point / discussion made.

But then - my RWNJ side kicks in - I'd remove them to some nice shiny new piece of unused road being built, glue them down and leave them there for 48 hours come rain or sun. Sorry no facilities provided. Failing that old fashioned stocks for a couple of days.

Now that would make excellent media coverage for their cause.

Edited by Yellow Fever
Alternatively - don't unglue them from the road - cut out a 1 foot square of tarmac with them still attached and move them an their attached trophy to the verge. Leave. Send them a full bill for repairs.

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On 18/10/2021 at 08:42, BigFish said:

I know our friend @ricardo likes a good opinion poll to take the temperature but he seems to have missed this one for some reason?

 

 

He missed this one too.😉

 

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Personally as to 'Insulate Britain' although their aims are laudable their actions are not and lose them the general public support.

A first protest, perhaps two OK. Point / discussion made.

But then - my RWNJ side kicks in - I'd remove them to some nice shiny new piece of unused road being built, glue them down and leave them there for 48 hours come rain or sun. Sorry no facilities provided. Failing that old fashioned stocks for a couple of days.

Now that would make excellent media coverage for their cause.

It throws me off kilter when I disagree with posters like yourself and Apples, as you are people who I tend to largely agree with on everything. We're not 100% in disagreement as I think they need to change tactics and target the decision makers rather than the ordinary joe, but the only way they will keep their aims in the spotlight is by carrying on their direct actions.

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2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

When do they not have a worthwhile role in society?

Its a play on the suffrage movement.  There is a school of thought that the biggest reason that women got the vote wasn't the suffragists or the suffragettes but because women proved with their munition work etc that they could play a worthwhile role in society and that the vote was the reward for not protesting and instead getting on with vital work.

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2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Its a play on the suffrage movement.  There is a school of thought that the biggest reason that women got the vote wasn't the suffragists or the suffragettes but because women proved with their munition work etc that they could play a worthwhile role in society and that the vote was the reward for not protesting and instead getting on with vital work.

I think that's a fair point re. WWI showing how women were better suited for the world of work than old norms and customs used to think (although that is a stereotype that still seems to exist in a slightly different way amongst a much smaller number of more atavistic-minded sorts), but at the same time, there is always a need to keep causes in public awareness.

The time I didn't like the protest was when it stopped the ambulance. That was the "too far" moment. Everything else though, no. Not an issue whatsoever.

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3 hours ago, Herman said:

We're not 100% in disagreement as I think they need to change tactics and target the decision makers rather than the ordinary joe, but the only way they will keep their aims in the spotlight is by carrying on their direct actions

Totally agree Herman, I've no problem with the protest just the way it's carried out. They need to direct their actions in the right direction. 👍

Apples

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14 hours ago, Herman said:

It throws me off kilter when I disagree with posters like yourself and Apples, as you are people who I tend to largely agree with on everything. We're not 100% in disagreement as I think they need to change tactics and target the decision makers rather than the ordinary joe, but the only way they will keep their aims in the spotlight is by carrying on their direct actions.

No worries Herman - its just that they like inconveniencing everybody else for their (laudable) aims - but I would make sure they are equally inconvenienced when they also want to be doing something else.

I rather like the idea of leaving them glued to their bit of road - no solvent supplied - but moved off to the verge or somewhere safe.

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2 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

Outstanding levels of stupidity from Gillian Keegan.

What a useless idiot...she'll go far. 🤦‍♂️🤣

Apples

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

I rather like the idea of leaving them glued to their bit of road - no solvent supplied - but moved off to the verge or somewhere safe.

If they were really committed they'd wrap themselves in loft insulation as well. 🤣

Apples

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

No worries Herman - its just that they like inconveniencing everybody else for their (laudable) aims - but I would make sure they are equally inconvenienced when they also want to be doing something else.

I rather like the idea of leaving them glued to their bit of road - no solvent supplied - but moved off to the verge or somewhere safe.

I hope we experience a very cold winter, signs are that the Gulf stream has slowed considerably and we can't change that, so insulating our drafty leaky old houses might be quiet urgent and installing modern heat pump systems into un insulated houses is like trying to fill a bucket with no bottom, stupid.

https://www.livescience.com/gulf-stream-slowing-climate-change.html

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