New Tory Leader

[horsefly 4,287]

11 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Well, on my last three extended weekend breaks abroad, something big happened. Went to Finland, Johnson resigned. Next trip to Warsaw, Truss got in. Just before I flew to Vilnius, the Queen died. 

I'm off to Dresden to do the half-marathon at the end of October. Wonder if Truss goes then? 

(Joke, folks!)

Where do you need to go to ensure Putin pops his clogs? I'll pay your air fare.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

21 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Where do you need to go to ensure Putin pops his clogs? I'll pay your air fare.

Damn, Sparkasse-Marathon's no longer got online entries. And Lindau or Bregenz are inevitably pricey as hell when left late.

[Yellow Fever 3,748]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

After so much effort was put in by a large section of Conservative backbenchers to pressure Johnson to 'be more Conservative', it seems a large section of Conservative backbenchers are trying to undermine and pressure Truss to 'be less Conservative'. 

While Truss is clearly weak and has poor judgement, I think the Conservatives are unleadable at this stage; they've had a total breakdown in discipline. 

It simpler than that. Brexit and then Johnson simply purged the Tory party of all the sensible one nation Tories - leaving an ERG parasitized host or yes men and women willing to go along for the ride. Even Heseltine is now a 'non aligned' peer.

Now when they need competent capable politicians the bank is empty.

I think the party, such as it is, is brain dead, deader than Labour was under Corbyn as there appears to be no green shoots and no 'One Nation' Tory wing left. They are all ideologues of one form or another. Put it out of its misery and start again.

[sonyc 5,492]

So much being reported about an expected cutback on benefits and public spending (education and health especially).

A couple of charts below show a picture and provide some data on what our government thinks of the poorest people in society. The lowest in the OECD - We are hardly the country that champions welfare. Truss doesn't believe in redistribution - but the chart shows a nice redistribution between poor to rich with this administration and last one.

Foodbanks are an obvious feature of a society that isn't protecting enough of its population. It shows the failures not just in our system but also on policy. 

I've also added Danny Dyer's commentary. Not because he is some economic guru but because he just says things as he sees them. I also don't think benefits claimants are the scum of the earth. Of course there are wrong uns but being on benefits is not much fun for many people is it?

Truss is about to link benefits to wages and not inflation. I realise the answer IS work but wages are so low for many jobs.

Further, after Brexit and forcing people to return to France, Spain etc we now want more immigration (outside of the EU) to fill low paid jobs.

What a complete mess of policy objectives. Poorly managing our wider society and poorly managing our economy.

 

[king canary 7,580]

5 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

It simpler than that. Brexit and then Johnson simply purged the Tory party of all the sensible one nation Tories - leaving an ERG parasitized host or yes men and women willing to go along for the ride. Even Heseltine is now a 'non aligned' peer.

Now when they need competent capable politicians the bank is empty.

I think the party, such as it is, is brain dead, deader than Labour was under Corbyn as there appears to be no green shoots and no 'One Nation' Tory wing left. They are all ideologues of one form or another. Put it out of its misery and start again.

I think there is also the difficulty of managing the new coalition they achieved under Johnson- hence the repeated questions of 'how will this play in the red wall?' for every single policy announcement. It is a tough tightrope to walk as, outside of Brexit, there isn't much voters in the poorer areas of Hartlepool and affluent suburbs in Surrey really agree on. 

[KiwiScot 1,436]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

I'm off to Dresden to do the half-marathon at the end of October. Wonder if...

1) A Nuke

2) Brazilian Riots

3) The Pope dies

4) Strikes

[Yellow Fever 3,748]

3 minutes ago, KiwiScot said:

1) A Nuke

2) Brazilian Riots

3) The Pope dies

4) Strikes

5. All of the above.

[sonyc 5,492]

17 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

It simpler than that. Brexit and then Johnson simply purged the Tory party of all the sensible one nation Tories - leaving an ERG parasitized host or yes men and women willing to go along for the ride. Even Heseltine is now a 'non aligned' peer.

Now when they need competent capable politicians the bank is empty.

I think the party, such as it is, is brain dead, deader than Labour was under Corbyn as there appears to be no green shoots and no 'One Nation' Tory wing left. They are all ideologues of one form or another. Put it out of its misery and start again.

Spot on. Brexit has ruined the country. That is very clear. But it has also riven the Tory party into factions. The result has been the poorest governance.

An earlier post mentioned the quality of the cabinet and MPs. Looking at some of Labour's top table (and the Lib Dems) and they look every inch better candidates and proper adults. Watching Truss makes me more and more fear for her state of mind. I need to stop watching and stop listening!

We really seem to be so much at the collapsing end of 12 years of failure and something new needs to be reborn. Make no mistake though, Brexit's shadow hangs so heavily. It has done so much damage not just on the economy but on the standards of public discourse and trust.

Edited October 4, 2022 by sonyc

[Yellow Fever 3,748]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

Spot on. Brexit has ruined the country. That is very clear. But it has also riven the Tory party into factions. The result has been the poorest governance.

An earlier post mentioned the quality of the cabinet and MPs. Looking at some of Labour'a top table (and the Lib Dems) and they look every inch better candidates and proper adults. Watching Truss makes me more and more fear for her state of mind. I need to stop watching and stop listening!

We really seem to be so much at the collapsing end of 12 years of failure and something new needs to be reborn. Make no mistake though, Brexit's shadow hangs so heavily. It has done so much damage not just on the economy but on the standards of public discourse and trust.

Yes - And Truss's 'need' for many many more migrants (to drive productivity no less) as you mentioned and has been reported just makes me laugh. 

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

39 minutes ago, sonyc said:

So much being reported about an expected cutback on benefits and public spending (education and health especially).

A couple of charts below show a picture and provide some data on what our government thinks of the poorest people in society. The lowest in the OECD - We are hardly the country that champions welfare. Truss doesn't believe in redistribution - but the chart shows a nice redistribution between poor to rich with this administration and last one.

Foodbanks are an obvious feature of a society that isn't protecting enough of its population. It shows the failures not just in our system but also on policy. 

I've also added Danny Dyer's commentary. Not because he is some economic guru but because he just says things as he sees them. I also don't think benefits claimants are the scum of the earth. Of course there are wrong uns but being on benefits is not much fun for many people is it?

Truss is about to link benefits to wages and not inflation. I realise the answer IS work but wages are so low for many jobs.

Further, after Brexit and forcing people to return to France, Spain etc we now want more immigration (outside of the EU) to fill low paid jobs.

What a complete mess of policy objectives. Poorly managing our wider society and poorly managing our economy.

 

Exactly, they can obfuscate all they like, but if you're the boss of someone who's working full-time, and you're not paying them enough to live on, that's with the boss. If your business model doesn't provide enough profit to pay them sufficiently, that's the problem with your business model, not the worker.

It's just a polite way of saying "I believe your work is useful but you should starve anyway".

Fact is, most benefits are paid to people who work. The notion of "lazy benefit scroungers" is an old trope that applies to relatively few, and cost far less than these tax cuts Kami-Kwazi erroneously went for.

Edited October 4, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[horsefly 4,287]

8 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Exactly, they can obfuscate all they like, but if you're the boss of someone who's working full-time, and you're not paying them enough to live on, that's with the boss. If your business model doesn't provide enough profit to pay them sufficiently, that's the problem with your business model, not the worker.

It's just a polite way of saying "I believe your work is useful but you should starve anyway".

Fact is, most benefits are paid to people who work. The notion of "lazy benefit scroungers" is an old trope that applies to relatively few, and cost far less than these tax cuts Kami-Kwazi erroneously went for.

I remember being at a dinner party several years ago when a rather obnoxious local business owner persisted in dominating discussion boasting to all the other guests about the many trappings his "remarkable" entrepreneurship had rewarded him (he even boasted about the many thousands he had to pay gardeners to cut his hedging, such was the size of land he owned). When he started to pour bile about benefit scroungers I had had enough. I asked him whether he paid his workers the minimum wage. "Yes" he replied, happy that he abided by the minimum legal requirement. I asked him whether any of those workers he paid the minimum wage also had families. "Yes, he replied again. I replied thus, "So actually every taxpayer is subsidising your failure to pay your staff a sufficient wage to afford the basic cost of living as determined by the government. That means it is the taxpayer who has subsidised your big house, your many holidays, your big cars, and all the other luxuries you have told us about. Doesn't that make you a benefit scrounger?" Suffice to say we didn't exchange telephone numbers.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

13 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I remember being at a dinner party several years ago when a rather obnoxious local business owner persisted in dominating discussion boasting to all the other guests about the many trappings his "remarkable" entrepreneurship had rewarded him (he even boasted about the many thousands he had to pay gardeners to cut his hedging, such was the size of land he owned). When he started to pour bile about benefit scroungers I had had enough. I asked him whether he paid his workers the minimum wage. "Yes" he replied, happy that he abided by the minimum legal requirement. I asked him whether any of those workers he paid the minimum wage also had families. "Yes, he replied again. I replied thus, "So actually every taxpayer is subsidising your failure to pay your staff a sufficient wage to afford the basic cost of living as determined by the government. That means it is the taxpayer who has subsidised your big house, your many holidays, your big cars, and all the other luxuries you have told us about. Doesn't that make you a benefit scrounger?" Suffice to say we didn't exchange telephone numbers.

Dan Price, the CEO at Gravity Payments who famously offered a $70K minimum wage and cut his wage down to finance it, had the following to say.

Dan Price on Twitter: "When we doubled our minimum wage to $70k, the rate of staff having babies and buying houses both grew 10x. All of a sudden people could afford to have families. To our senators who say they're pro-family: There's nothing more pro-family than a higher minimum wage." / Twitter

[Well b back 3,190]

What a nasty piece of work, can’t be trusted as a friend, so definitely don’t make her an enemy lol

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-63128448

[Mr Apples 1,317]

1 hour ago, Well b back said:

What a nasty piece of work, can’t be trusted as a friend, so definitely don’t make her an enemy lol

I hope Kwazi doesn't have a pet bunny... 🐰🍲🔥🤣

Apples

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Suella prattling on about benefits again. WTF has that to do with a Home Secretary? Does she believe its fraud? If she wants to stop fraud, check on who got contracts during Covid.

On about the ground breaking deal with Rwanda. Or as it is known "The Deal that increased the amount of cross channel refugees".

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

What we’ve got is too many low skilled workers coming into this country,” she told The Sun. “We’ve also got a very high number of students coming into this country and we’ve got a really high number of dependents.

Suella my dear, low skilled workers is what we are short of as much as those highly skilled like doctors.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

The Treasury minister responsible for welfare changes wrote a paper saying universal credit claimants should be forced to “work for the dole” on tasks such as cleaning up graffiti or face losing all of their support.

Yes Chris, covering up all those "Tories Out" signs is a priority.

[Barbe bleu 814]

7 hours ago, sonyc said:

So much being reported about an expected cutback on benefits and public spending (education and health especially).

A couple of charts below show a picture and provide some data on what our government thinks of the poorest people in society. The lowest in the OECD - We are hardly the country that champions welfare. Truss doesn't believe in redistribution - but the chart shows a nice redistribution between poor to rich with this administration and last one.

Foodbanks are an obvious feature of a society that isn't protecting enough of its population. It shows the failures not just in our system but also on policy. 

I've also added Danny Dyer's commentary. Not because he is some economic guru but because he just says things as he sees them. I also don't think benefits claimants are the scum of the earth. Of course there are wrong uns but being on benefits is not much fun for many people is it?

Truss is about to link benefits to wages and not inflation. I realise the answer IS work but wages are so low for many jobs.

Further, after Brexit and forcing people to return to France, Spain etc we now want more immigration (outside of the EU) to fill low paid jobs.

What a complete mess of policy objectives. Poorly managing our wider society and poorly managing our economy.

 

The top graph seems to show the size of the state pension but your analysis seems to be of 'working age' benefits.  I'm a bit lost.

[sonyc 5,492]

37 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

The top graph seems to show the size of the state pension but your analysis seems to be of 'working age' benefits.  I'm a bit lost.

The first is about state pension yes. The second is far more complex but shows the range of income deciles against tax and welfare policies and in two periods. Agree it's a mix up and that one can use all kinds of charts. I felt they were interesting though. And my central point was about benefits generally and the ideology behind policy. @horsefly and @TheGunnShow got the message about wage levels and made very good points about employers. I suppose at heart there is a link here to the theory of surplus value - but anything referenced to Marx doesn't go down very well in my experience because people conflate his ideas and theories with being totalitarian states and extreme socialism. It's an interesting debate though. And why we need excellent living wages and not a purely a desperate drive for profit and growth but a balance between employee and employer in terms of benefit (profit / labour).

Edited October 4, 2022 by sonyc

[sonyc 5,492]

 

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

What we’ve got is too many low skilled workers coming into this country,” she told The Sun. “We’ve also got a very high number of students coming into this country and we’ve got a really high number of dependents.

Suella my dear, low skilled workers is what we are short of as much as those highly skilled like doctors.

I can spot an eejit when they complain about high numbers of students coming in.

Right, these are young people, who are more likely to speak English well, who are motivated enough to cross borders, finance our sodding tuition fees in some cases, and be qualified over here. If they stay here after qualifying then they're precisely the sort of more educated sort of immigrant you'd think Braverman would like to have and even if they go home, they'll take their better qualifications and hopefully help improve matters back home.

[Icecream Snow 761]

We have a Tory leader that is so out of touch, even the CEOs are volunteering to pay more tax.

 

[Well b back 3,190]

Tory MPs and other countries turn on busy Lizzy regards banning King Charles from COP27. 

[Rock The Boat 1,325]

14 hours ago, sonyc said:

So much being reported about an expected cutback on benefits and public spending (education and health especially).

A couple of charts below show a picture and provide some data on what our government thinks of the poorest people in society. The lowest in the OECD - We are hardly the country that champions welfare. Truss doesn't believe in redistribution - but the chart shows a nice redistribution between poor to rich with this administration and last one.

Foodbanks are an obvious feature of a society that isn't protecting enough of its population. It shows the failures not just in our system but also on policy. 

I've also added Danny Dyer's commentary. Not because he is some economic guru but because he just says things as he sees them. I also don't think benefits claimants are the scum of the earth. Of course there are wrong uns but being on benefits is not much fun for many people is it?

Truss is about to link benefits to wages and not inflation. I realise the answer IS work but wages are so low for many jobs.

Further, after Brexit and forcing people to return to France, Spain etc we now want more immigration (outside of the EU) to fill low paid jobs.

What a complete mess of policy objectives. Poorly managing our wider society and poorly managing our economy.

 

The cuts needed are not in benefit levels or food banks but in the numbers employed in non-jobs in the public sector. For example, there is not a single organisation the public sector without some form of diversity or equity officer to monitor peoples thinking. That's tens of thousands of jobs plus all the associated costs of employment that adds no value whatsoever to the service being provided. These fake jobs all need to be stripped out. And that's before you even start on other inefficiencies.

And Danny Dyer is right - but for the wrong reasons. It is ridiculous to pay in-work benefits, as it simply paying wages that an employer should be paying. So huge savings can be made by ending in-work benefits, but allow low-paid workers to keep more of their wage through progressive taxation policies. Get rid of the 19 hour rule that makes it unviable for people to work longer hours.

[Herman 9,716]

A repeat but still makes me chuckle.

[horsefly 4,287]

5 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

The cuts needed are not in benefit levels or food banks but in the numbers employed in non-jobs in the public sector. For example, there is not a single organisation the public sector without some form of diversity or equity officer to monitor peoples thinking. That's tens of thousands of jobs plus all the associated costs of employment that adds no value whatsoever to the service being provided. These fake jobs all need to be stripped out. And that's before you even start on other inefficiencies.

Will look forward to seeing your evidence for this bigoted rubbish.

[horsefly 4,287]

Polling expert Prof. John Curtice was just asked by Kay Burley what is the one thing Truss could say in her speech today to reverse the Tory Party's appalling decline in the polls. Inexplicably he missed the opportunity to suggest, "I resign!".

[Yellow Fever 3,748]

As a party - the body - they are dead; zombies. It's just  that the message hasn't yet arrived at the head.

They clearly need a generation in the wilderness to sort themselves out which I'm sure they'll get.

 

More helpfully, I actually do understand what Truss wants to do - create a low tax, low regulation, low benefits economy similar to the USA. Unfortunately she has no mandate for this and worse her base consists of large numbers of OAPs which are the most 'entitled'  of any of the benefit sinks - not the hard working younger families. 

[sonyc 5,492]

7 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

The cuts needed are not in benefit levels or food banks but in the numbers employed in non-jobs in the public sector. For example, there is not a single organisation the public sector without some form of diversity or equity officer to monitor peoples thinking. That's tens of thousands of jobs plus all the associated costs of employment that adds no value whatsoever to the service being provided. These fake jobs all need to be stripped out. And that's before you even start on other inefficiencies.

Forthcoming further cuts in the public sector that are rumoured will have a devastating effect. Especially now. Look at this latest report and link to the Tory austerity years. These policies cost lives. Note the analysis is pre pandemic.

Cuts are made across services and not just in areas you mention. I believe your view here is a deflection. ....It is always those worst off that bear the biggest consequences. Every time we have a 'fiscal' problem the Tory party focusses and targets the poorest in society. It's why we have a widening gap in equality. It's why there is a widening gap in life expectancy. This isn't me playing pure politics. It's shown in the hard data.

Like in Britannia Unchained Tories' policies castigate the poor as idle, labelling them. You know this is true. It's the dominant ideology.... that the rich should be freer to create wealth to benefit a wider society. But that doesn't happen very often does it? The rich keep their wealth. It's the ideology that has failed in the last 40 or so years - if you consider greater equality as an important national 'goal' (with a range of better outcomes). 

It's immoral.

We need a new Beveridge Plan not more of the same stuff. The Tory party needs a long time out of the national picture. It is actually ruining this country. We need people like you RTB to realise this and actually help vote them out.

Anyway, here is the latest (in a number) of serious reports on the state of UK 'PLC':

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/05/over-330000-excess-deaths-in-great-britain-linked-to-austerity-finds-study?

Edited October 5, 2022 by sonyc

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

8 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

The cuts needed are not in benefit levels or food banks but in the numbers employed in non-jobs in the public sector. For example, there is not a single organisation the public sector without some form of diversity or equity officer to monitor peoples thinking. That's tens of thousands of jobs plus all the associated costs of employment that adds no value whatsoever to the service being provided. These fake jobs all need to be stripped out. And that's before you even start on other inefficiencies.

And Danny Dyer is right - but for the wrong reasons. It is ridiculous to pay in-work benefits, as it simply paying wages that an employer should be paying. So huge savings can be made by ending in-work benefits, but allow low-paid workers to keep more of their wage through progressive taxation policies. Get rid of the 19 hour rule that makes it unviable for people to work longer hours.

We need full employment and as long as somebody is doing their job then I have absolutely no problem with Diversity Officers or Hospital Executives. We need money in peoples' pockets and a buoyant economy.

Why is anyone on the minimum wage paying Tax? Why does the Government pay half the rent on my Grandaughter's house, which goes to the owner of the property, who may have a mortgage on it, instead of putting that towards a mortgage on the property for her and her husband? Both work and could pay a mortgage of their own.

Why don't we have a better way of funding the NHS? Why do we have to put up with below safety levels of staff because it is funded properly. Why don't we have a separate NHS levy on earnings. We have Tax, NI, Pension Payments taken at source. Why not a £5 (a figure just for the argument) levy on wages and pensions that is  exclusively for the NHS so that we can get back to no waiting lists and able to see a GP in under two weeks?

I could go on as there are many areas where this nation can be improved but the key to that is full employment no matter how trivial the job seems.