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41 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Quite agree, the metropolitan elite has for many years been a problem for Labour but now we have nutters like Billy that post intolerant lefty ideological views on here, abusive and accusational,  which are miles away from most of us who supported Labour as a real and practical alternative to Tory rule, becoming a mouthpiece for Labour which turns most off. And yet many follow like sheep and expect like lambs to the slaughter to see inroads into the Tory majority. Its a shocking state of affairs.

People tend to get frustrated because they, quite rightly, point out that the Tories are also largely metropolitan elites. However they generally don't claim to not be or claim that they represent the interests of ordinary working people.

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3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

think this sums it up well KC...

 

Indeed- Harris is an insightful journalist and one of the few who actually gets outside of his bubble to understand what people really think & feel. 

The issue with Labour and the working classes for me echoes the issues the Democratic Party in the US are having with some voters from the BAME community at the moment- there has been a lazy thought process that suggests they are obviously the people best positioned to help those communities and thus they should just vote for them whatever. People are tired of that. 

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5 minutes ago, king canary said:

Indeed- Harris is an insightful journalist and one of the few who actually gets outside of his bubble to understand what people really think & feel. 

The issue with Labour and the working classes for me echoes the issues the Democratic Party in the US are having with some voters from the BAME community at the moment- there has been a lazy thought process that suggests they are obviously the people best positioned to help those communities and thus they should just vote for them whatever. People are tired of that. 

Yes, agree here. There is a real issue on defining their identity - for Labour.

I see it so much locally - with really grounded Labour supporters who really get involved at grassroots level right in their communities. They actively encourage the 'working class voice'. And they do it year after year after year. It's formidable. 

Yet, there is an elitist kind of 'leftie' (for want of a better term) as you've outlined. How does the party play to provincial and metropolitan?

 

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22 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Yes, agree here. There is a real issue on defining their identity - for Labour.

I see it so much locally - with really grounded Labour supporters who really get involved at grassroots level right in their communities. They actively encourage the 'working class voice'. And they do it year after year after year. It's formidable. 

Yet, there is an elitist kind of 'leftie' (for want of a better term) as you've outlined. How does the party play to provincial and metropolitan?

 

There may well come a time when it becomes siht or bust. Why dilute your beliefs or policies to be popular. The Greens don't.

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8 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

There may well come a time when it becomes siht or bust. Why dilute your beliefs or policies to be popular. The Greens don't.

its already bust KG, the time is now

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50 minutes ago, king canary said:

People tend to get frustrated because they, quite rightly, point out that the Tories are also largely metropolitan elites. However they generally don't claim to not be or claim that they represent the interests of ordinary working people.

Really?? That's precisely what Thatcher claimed (and what the "buy your council home" policy was aimed to convince). And it's precisely what Johnson claimed regarding his support for brexit (time and again in the last election campaign he claimed the Tory Party to be the Party of the working classes). As for your earlier claim that Labour is now divided between a middle-class, metropolitan, university educated group, and an ordinary working class industrial group, that has always been the case throughout its history.

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23 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

There may well come a time when it becomes siht or bust. Why dilute your beliefs or policies to be popular. The Greens don't.

Perfectly ok if you are happy just to be a protest voice and some nice environment friendly policies that everyone agrees would make the world a nicer place. I think millions will go along with that until it starts getting chilly and nothing happens when they flick the light switch and the heating doesn't come on. The west got rich and comfortable because of high energy useage but who knows, in future years there may be a technical fix coming down the line but I'm glad I won't have to count on it.

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On 29/04/2021 at 09:22, PurpleCanary said:

'Johnson never thinks ahead.'

Nor seemingly do some posters. Voters do not like realising they have been taken for fools. And the Tory party is quite ruthless when it decides its leader has lost their hold over the electorate.

A basic mistake in politics is to con people into voting for you on the back of a fake image, because once voters realise they've fooled, and sooner or later they do, they will run a country mile from you. Johnson has crafted this image of a posh boy who's actually a good bloke and a good laugh who will happily stand you a drink or three in a pub.

It now transpires that someone who has fathered an indeterminate number of children (plus a former mistress having had an abortion to avoid there being one more to add to the list) claims he cannot afford childcare for his latest progeny. And this despite a salary that puts him in the top one per cent of earners in the UK and having not one but two luxurious rent-free properties to live in.

Suddenly he looks like just another entitled posh layabout who would probably not really want to be seen dead with you in a pub, and if forced to then would touch you up for a couple of tenners to buy the drinks.

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15 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Really?? That's precisely what Thatcher claimed (and what the "buy your council home" policy was aimed to convince). And it's precisely what Johnson claimed regarding his support for brexit (time and again in the last election campaign he claimed the Tory Party to be the Party of the working classes). As for your earlier claim that Labour is now divided between a middle-class, metropolitan, university educated group, and an ordinary working class industrial group, that has always been the case throughout its history.

Yes but the proportionally has changed and sadly clowns like Billy seem to be far more prominent 

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1 minute ago, Van wink said:

Yes but the proportionally has changed and sadly clowns like Billy seem to be far more prominent 

Really? I can't believe you honestly think that Billy or his "ilk" has any prominent role in the Labour movement, or is the cause for its "downfall". If anything it has been the infiltration of Momentum that has been the root of the current problems for the Labour Party in a way that is very similar to its infiltration by Militant Tendency in the early eighties. In both cases the infiltrating group had/has no desire whatsoever to engage in a pragmatic discourse with the people it was/is claiming to represent. The Labour Party has always tussled with a tension between its "progressive" ideals and the more traditional "prosaic" concerns of its working class constituencies. It is at its most successful when it settles for a set of policies that speak to both concerns (however messy that might be). Thus some might complain that ideologically speaking Blair was rather too "Tory" for their tastes, nonetheless he managed to implement policies that saw a massive amount of money pumped into the NHS, education, and poverty relief (things of everyday concern to the majority). Fabian style gradualism has always proved more productive for the Labour Party's hopes of electoral success rather than the revolutionary instincts of dominant infiltrator groupings. 

Alan Bleasdale's political parody GBH is a wonderful dramatic takedown of Militant Tendency's corruption of the Labour Party in the early eighties; posh up the voices a bit and it's not without relevance to the Stalinistic tendencies to be found in Momentum's "takeover" of Labour Party constituencies in the Corbyn era. The Labour Party represented by Jim Nelson (the part played by Michael Palin) is precisely what needs to be recovered if Labour is to win again.

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14 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Really? I can't believe you honestly think that Billy or his "ilk" has any prominent role in the Labour movement, or is the cause for its "downfall". If anything it has been the infiltration of Momentum that has been the root of the current problems for the Labour Party in a way that is very similar to its infiltration by Militant Tendency in the early eighties. In both cases the infiltrating group had/has no desire whatsoever to engage in a pragmatic discourse with the people it was/is claiming to represent. The Labour Party has always tussled with a tension between its "progressive" ideals and the more traditional "prosaic" concerns of its working class constituencies. It is at its most successful when it settles for a set of policies that speak to both concerns (however messy that might be). Thus some might complain that ideologically speaking Blair was rather too "Tory" for their tastes, nonetheless he managed to implement policies that saw a massive amount of money pumped into the NHS, education, and poverty relief (things of everyday concern to the majority). Fabian style gradualism has always proved more productive for the Labour Party's hopes of electoral success rather than the revolutionary instincts of dominant infiltrator groupings. 

Alan Bleasdale's political parody GBH is a wonderful dramatic takedown of Militant Tendency's corruption of the Labour Party in the early eighties; posh up the voices a bit and it's not without relevance to the Stalinistic tendencies to be found in Momentum's "takeover" of Labour Party constituencies in the Corbyn era. The Labour Party represented by Jim Nelson (the part played by Michael Palin) is precisely what needs to be recovered if Labour is to win again.

Well that’s refreshing, well done👍

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1 hour ago, Van wink said:

its already bust KG, the time is now

This was said in 1997. Some Tories said they would never be in power again. But 13 years later they were and will be for some time. Remember the disaster that was Michael Howard?

We live in a centre right nation. Look how many Labour Governments we have had. But that doesn't alter my views and principles on life. If there is never another Labour Government in my lifetime then so be it, my views will be in the minority.

But that won't stop me voicing those views and decrying what I believe is the sleaze and downright lying of this Government.

Does nobody not view Gove with distaste, a man who said he couldn't work under Boris but so quickly and deceptively, changed his slimey mind.

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23 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

This was said in 1997. Some Tories said they would never be in power again. But 13 years later they were and will be for some time. Remember the disaster that was Michael Howard?

We live in a centre right nation. Look how many Labour Governments we have had. But that doesn't alter my views and principles on life. If there is never another Labour Government in my lifetime then so be it, my views will be in the minority.

But that won't stop me voicing those views and decrying what I believe is the sleaze and downright lying of this Government.

Does nobody not view Gove with distaste, a man who said he couldn't work under Boris but so quickly and deceptively, changed his slimey mind.

Absolutely voice your views KG, not sure anyone is saying otherwise, certainly not me. The point I was making was the more obvious fundamental one of electability and the ability to shape policy in the absence of power. Not sure I agree the country is centre right, but that depends on your compass. 

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52 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Well that’s refreshing, well done👍

Why do you decry other people's behaviour on here yet engage in this sort of patronising behaviour and the childish playground nonsense of accusing other people of having multiple identities? Perhaps if you behave like a grown up it would help encourage serious debate.

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31 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Why do you decry other people's behaviour on here yet engage in this sort of patronising behaviour and the childish playground nonsense of accusing other people of having multiple identities? Perhaps if you behave like a grown up it would help encourage serious debate.

No intention to patronise horsefly, apologies if you took it the wrong way.

Off down to Aldi’s now to get something for my tea, Ta-ra👍

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3 hours ago, horsefly said:

Really?? That's precisely what Thatcher claimed (and what the "buy your council home" policy was aimed to convince). And it's precisely what Johnson claimed regarding his support for brexit (time and again in the last election campaign he claimed the Tory Party to be the Party of the working classes). As for your earlier claim that Labour is now divided between a middle-class, metropolitan, university educated group, and an ordinary working class industrial group, that has always been the case throughout its history.

Yes I'm aware its always been that way- my point is right now those two groups seem further and further apart, a point I'd suggest Brexit has highlighted in a way very little else has.

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7 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

A basic mistake in politics is to con people into voting for you on the back of a fake image, because once voters realise they've fooled, and sooner or later they do, they will run a country mile from you. Johnson has crafted this image of a posh boy who's actually a good bloke and a good laugh who will happily stand you a drink or three in a pub.

It now transpires that someone who has fathered an indeterminate number of children (plus a former mistress having had an abortion to avoid there being one more to add to the list) claims he cannot afford childcare for his latest progeny. And this despite a salary that puts him in the top one per cent of earners in the UK and having not one but two luxurious rent-free properties to live in.

Suddenly he looks like just another entitled posh layabout who would probably not really want to be seen dead with you in a pub, and if forced to then would touch you up for a couple of tenners to buy the drinks.

When the choice was between a posh boy and someone happy to lay a wreath on a terrorist's grave then most people would vote for the toff.

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5 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

When the choice was between a posh boy and someone happy to lay a wreath on a terrorist's grave then most people would vote for the toff.

 

0E0ED40A-7735-4D20-9794-53B371D23783.jpeg

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Posted (edited)

It appears you could have been right @Well b back   ...awaiting corroboration. 

Hardly a surprise though if this happened sadly.

 

Edited by sonyc
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42 minutes ago, sonyc said:

It appears you could have been right @Well b back   ...awaiting corroboration. 

Hardly a surprise though if this happened sadly.

 

This has been reported in bits here and there, just surprised ( assuming it happened ) that those owners have not come out and said it wasn’t just us. Like people have said who cares about certain things, but as the great Bill Shankly pointed out football is a religion to those that follow it.

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On 27/04/2021 at 09:15, PurpleCanary said:

Peston was only confirming a Daily Mail story, and the confirmations from others have flooded in. You obviously haven't learned that in any situation involved Boris Johnson the wise default position is to not trust a word he says.

The other question is why did Johnson's chief of staff, who is a busy man, make time in his crowded schedule  a couple of weeks ago for a meeting with the chief executive of Manchester United Football Club. I cannot offhand think of any urgent footballing issues that might have political implications...

Has there been some development on this today? I don't doubt Johnson knew of the Super League plan some days ahead. If you are Ed Woodward  and you want to know what the government's reaction will be to some novel proposal you talk to the PM, and if not to them then to their chief of staff.

And the chief of staff will usually either give the thumbs up or the thumbs down or say the government really doesn't care either way. And if the chief of staff isn't sure what the response should or would be (which one can see happening in this case) they will ask the PM. But either way they will brief the PM on the plan.

And that is without the apparent fact that Woodward bumped into Johnson in the corridor at Number 10 afterwards and according to sources came away, either from talking to Johnson or from what the chief of staff had said, or both, with the impression the government  either liked the plan or at least would not stand in its way.

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Is there any more information on Johnson and the ESL? 

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Who to vote for ?

I tend to vote Tory in the locals (Norwich) although largely wasted simply as a protest because I see the local Labour led council as complete spendthrifts on idealistic but largely unused as opposed to practical infrastructure. But I don't want my vote being  used as apparent support for the even more obnoxious Johnson and his gang of money grabbers and 'VIP' cronies. Bring back the real small c Tories not these imposters.

Then I'd naturally vote SKS in a general election as I agree with much of the broader centre left in general.  People often need help but they should also try to help themselves (and not to other peoples money eh Johnson?).

 

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2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

And Biden won in the USA. 

He didn't and the majority of the world knows he didn't...

Even the Ayoreo peoples of Chaco know that Sleepy didn't win the election 🙃

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Posted (edited)

Oh, he won alright. Even Liz Cheney's saying the game is up on that.

Could be very intriguing in Germany right now. It'll certainly be a coalition, but the main colour is going to be very interesting. My suspicion, but it is no more than that, is that the Greens will fall back from polling figures, but what combinations arise from it is going to be wonderfully hard to guess.

Edited by TheGunnShow
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Who to vote for ?

I tend to vote Tory in the locals (Norwich) although largely wasted simply as a protest because I see the local Labour led council as complete spendthrifts on idealistic but largely unused as opposed to practical infrastructure. But I don't want my vote being  used as apparent support for the even more obnoxious Johnson and his gang of money grabbers and 'VIP' cronies. Bring back the real small c Tories not these imposters.

Then I'd naturally vote SKS in a general election as I agree with much of the broader centre left in general.  People often need help but they should also try to help themselves (and not to other peoples money eh Johnson?).

 

Libdems are quite good in my local area, getting involved and sorting issues. The greens are OK too but the tories tend to get overall control. Probably explains why serco get a large chunk of council contracts. 

Just remembered that we have a big John Lewis and waitrose. I wonder if they'll get any blowback from the Emperor's snobbery. 😀

Edited by Herman

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5 minutes ago, Jools said:

He didn't and the majority of the world knows he didn't...

Even the Ayoreo peoples of Chaco know that Sleepy didn't win the election 🙃

Poor Jules, he's more stupid than Nadine Dorries. 

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