New Tory Leader

[Herman 9,760]

 

[Herman 9,760]

Yeah it's the slow and quiet turning of this great nation into an Orban style ****hole, but so what?

 

[Jools 584]

25 minutes ago, Herman said:

Yeah it's the slow and quiet turning of this great nation into an Orban style ****hole, but so what?

 

Carla Bruni-Sarkozy on the woke, cancel culture and Channel 4…

“Little by little and without warning, do-gooders and censorship have taken control. Obsessed by their image of upholders of morality, a whole load of people without culture, without experience and without courage are trying to impose their narrow-minded ideas on us. Their sterile, uniform and puerile ideas are seeking to invade humanity. If we have the misfortune not to think like them, they rush at us with all their dictatorial energy to try to make us be quiet. Humour is quietly disappearing as a result of their moralising speeches, freedom is in its death throes, creation is lifeless and democracy in great danger. In short, it is not good to joke in 2021…”

Edited May 1, 2021 by Jools

[horsefly 4,300]

36 minutes ago, Jools said:

Carla Bruni-Sarkozy on the woke, cancel culture and Channel 4…

“Little by little and without warning, do-gooders and censorship have taken control. Obsessed by their image of upholders of morality, a whole load of people without culture, without experience and without courage are trying to impose their narrow-minded ideas on us. Their sterile, uniform and puerile ideas are seeking to invade humanity. If we have the misfortune not to think like them, they rush at us with all their dictatorial energy to try to make us be quiet. Humour is quietly disappearing as a result of their moralising speeches, freedom is in its death throes, creation is lifeless and democracy in great danger. In short, it is not good to joke in 2021…”

Would that be the wife of the ex-president sentenced to three years in prison for corruption? Perhaps she can share a flat with Carrie when their partners enjoy some extended time away (perhaps Carla should choose the furniture this time, as their "hubbies" won't generate very  much income from sewing mail bags).

[benchwarmer 625]

I don't know how anyone can vote Tory with someone like that running the show, along with her lying boyfriend . . .

[A Load of Squit 5,162]

7 hours ago, Jools said:

Carla Bruni-Sarkozy on the woke, cancel culture and Channel 4…

“Little by little and without warning, do-gooders and censorship have taken control. Obsessed by their image of upholders of morality, a whole load of people without culture, without experience and without courage are trying to impose their narrow-minded ideas on us. Their sterile, uniform and puerile ideas are seeking to invade humanity. If we have the misfortune not to think like them, they rush at us with all their dictatorial energy to try to make us be quiet. Humour is quietly disappearing as a result of their moralising speeches, freedom is in its death throes, creation is lifeless and democracy in great danger. In short, it is not good to joke in 2021…”

How has the 'woke, cancel culture' affected you?

[A Load of Squit 5,162]

It's disgusting how these people have kids that they can't afford and then expect the state to fund their lifestyle.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

It's disgusting how these people have kids that they can't afford and then expect the state to fund their lifestyle.

 

Its a shame these people on state benefits won't go out and get a job in the fields because they would be losing benefits.

[Rock The Boat 1,331]

11 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Funny how you swing from far right to the left when it suits.

The people we are talking about come to this country for a better life. And they enhance the British way of life. We don't hoover them up. 

We don't have enough people in this country who are capable of being Doctors and Nurses. Our NHS is massive and we cannot staff it just solely from UK citizens. And are Greek, Spanish, French from poor nations? You automatically assumed I was meaning India etc. Maybe that illustrates your initial thoughts.

We have plenty of people who are capable of being doctors and nurses (plus all the ancillary staff) but we don't make it economically attractive enough for people to go through the whole training process and then on into work in what is a very stressful career. I can swing from the left to the right and back again because I am not ideologically bound. 

It doesn't make sense for a country to rely so heavily on external resources for critical infrastructure projects whether it be medical provision or energy provision. It's also morally suspect to entice away medical resources from poorer countries who cannot compete with us on wages.

What we actually should be doing is training and producing a surplus of medical staff (no a deficit) and then sending that surplus to hospitals in those poorer countries to work for a period so that we benefit by getting experience (a bit like loaning out young footballers) while poor countries benefit by gaining doctors and nurses who have received world-class training. A win-win for everyone.

[Herman 9,760]

 

[Herman 9,760]

The sleaze seems to be getting through. Polling looks to be going one way. Hopefully it's not a false dawn and the voters do the right thing for once, although I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Van wink 2,994]

3 minutes ago, Herman said:

The sleaze seems to be getting through. Polling looks to be going one way. Hopefully it's not a false dawn and the voters do the right thing for once, although I'm not holding my breath.

 

Definitely begining to move now, especially in the Red Wall 

[Herman 9,760]

I can't remember seeing such a wide variation. Does one company work exclusively in Liverpool while the other in Tunbridge Wells?😀

 

[Herman 9,760]

10 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Definitely begining to move now, especially in the Red Wall 

One things for certain, the tories have finally managed to kill off Ukip and their follow ons. That was worth it. It would have been easier for them to have just tinkered with Nigel's aeroplane a bit better.😉

[Yellow Fever 3,783]

3 hours ago, Herman said:

I can't remember seeing such a wide variation. Does one company work exclusively in Liverpool while the other in Tunbridge Wells?😀

 

I suspect very different actual polling dates on a fast moving electorate.

SKS just needs to keep it in the news next week too.

[sonyc 5,517]

6 hours ago, Herman said:

I can't remember seeing such a wide variation. Does one company work exclusively in Liverpool while the other in Tunbridge Wells?😀

 

In a way it's disappointing that the centre left parties couldn't combine ahead...a Green / Lib / Lab coalition. The Tories get in under our electoral system because they are right / centre right and apart from the DUP there are precious few other bedfellows. 

A bit of work to do in terms of a shared manifesto accepted but the one overwhelming unifying aim must be to provide an effective opposition to the current mad 'box of frogs' populist conservative party. Looking at the range of opinion polls it's clear the centre/left forms the majority of opinion in the UK but there is no vehicle to mobilise it, save for localised voting.

 

[Herman 9,760]

Even if not a coalition a pragmatic approach would help at elections. If a progressive party aren't going to win a seat, step aside for one that can. They weren't interested in doing that last time and look where we are.

[Van wink 2,994]

58 minutes ago, sonyc said:

In a way it's disappointing that the centre left parties couldn't combine ahead...a Green / Lib / Lab coalition. The Tories get in under our electoral system because they are right / centre right and apart from the DUP there are precious few other bedfellows. 

A bit of work to do in terms of a shared manifesto accepted but the one overwhelming unifying aim must be to provide an effective opposition to the current mad 'box of frogs' populist conservative party. Looking at the range of opinion polls it's clear the centre/left forms the majority of opinion in the UK but there is no vehicle to mobilise it, save for localised voting.

 

There was a huge unifying aim for remainer parties over Brexit and even with a single issue Parliament the opposing parties couldn’t get their act together, that was the perfect opportunity for your vision to be realised but it couldn’t be achieved sonyc. 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Van wink

[Herman 9,760]

Labour weren't a remain party.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

28 minutes ago, Herman said:

Labour weren't a remain party.

But they were accused by Johnson and Farage of being so. Corbyn was a sceptic but he was under pressure in the Party to come out as Remain and he thought it would make it easier for Labour to even go for a second vote if elected.

Bad advice as Leave/Remain is binary. And with UKIP etc back in the Tory fold, and the Red Wall obsession with immigration, the war was lost.

[sonyc 5,517]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

There was a huge unifying aim for remainer parties over Brexit and even with a single issue Parliament the opposing parties couldn’t get their act together, that was the perfect opportunity for your vision to be realised but it couldn’t be achieved sonyc. 

I disagree with you on this. Brexit was the least unifying issue I think we have ever seen. It was a in/out referendum which managed to conceal a whole load of issues (economic, social, demographic and more). Getting any consensus on that was impossible, even the Tories were not united on the matter and several MPs disappeared as a result (resignations, accusations). So, I wouldn't accept that 'single issue' whatsoever. In terms of a future unity, wanting social justice and tackling inequalities (e.g. fairer housing policies), good transparent government and progressive taxation ought to find a home for centre left parties.

Even on this forum posters are very split over Brexit but on a test on what kind of things they might look for in good governance , in decent politicians and I reckon there would be more consensus. As KG has stated Brexit is far too binary and indeed it diminishes good quality debate even now. Corbyn's strategy was a disaster in my eyes of course, he flipped flopped and didn't seem to make a stand. Then there was a Farage effect who appealed to a whole load of older voters (as the voting stats show). I don't really have a vision for the future as one of coalition of the left but it would be interesting and make  a start in tackling this terrible lurch to the right under the current administration. There is a vacuum of opposition and the Tories are making hay.

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Labour weren't a remain party.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/27/labour-is-the-party-of-remain-says-keir-starmer-brexit

[Van wink 2,994]

4 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I disagree with you on this. Brexit was the least unifying issue I think we have ever seen. It was a in/out referendum which managed to conceal a whole load of issues (economic, social, demographic and more). Getting any consensus on that was impossible, even the Tories were not united on the matter and several MPs disappeared as a result (resignations, accusations). So, I wouldn't accept that 'single issue' whatsoever. In terms of a future unity, wanting social justice and tackling inequalities (e.g. fairer housing policies), good transparent government and progressive taxation ought to find a home for centre left parties.

Even on this forum posters are very split over Brexit but on a test on what kind of things they might look for in good governance , in decent politicians and I reckon there would be more consensus. As KG has stated Brexit is far too binary and indeed it diminishes good quality debate even now. Corbyn's strategy was a disaster in my eyes of course, he flipped flopped and didn't seem to make a stand. Then there was a Farage effect who appealed to a whole load of older voters (as the voting stats show). I don't really have a vision for the future as one of coalition of the left but it would be interesting and make  a start in tackling this terrible lurch to the right under the current administration. There is a vacuum of opposition and the Tories are making hay.

That’s a fair comment, which I appreciate, but I would still say that in terms of the parliamentary debate there were sufficient numbers against the whole idea of Brexit to have at least coalesced around a second referendum on the deal. If British politics is capable of forming an anti government coalition this was the prime opportunity. Personal view but accept you won’t agree.

[Herman 9,760]

17 minutes ago, Van wink said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/27/labour-is-the-party-of-remain-says-keir-starmer-brexit

What about the 3 years before that? Labour under Corbyn were not a remain party. They were neither here nor there.

[Van wink 2,994]

6 minutes ago, Herman said:

What about the 3 years before that? Labour under Corbyn were not a remain party. They were neither here nor there.

Appreciate that, all I am saying, in the context of an anti government coalition debate, is that there was an opportunity there, at that time, with a broadly common aim to stop Brexit but it proved too difficult.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

19 minutes ago, Van wink said:

That’s a fair comment, which I appreciate, but I would still say that in terms of the parliamentary debate there were sufficient numbers against the whole idea of Brexit to have at least coalesced around a second referendum on the deal. If British politics is capable of forming an anti government coalition this was the prime opportunity. Personal view but accept you won’t agree.

Parliament as a group was emphatically Remain of course.

[Van wink 2,994]

Just now, keelansgrandad said:

Parliament as a group was emphatically Remain of course.

That’s the point I’m trying to make KG. If ever there was an opportunity to show that anti Tory parties could come together to oppose that was it, and it didn’t happen. I’m not saying it won’t happen in the future but the chance was there if ever it was.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

6 minutes ago, Van wink said:

That’s the point I’m trying to make KG. If ever there was an opportunity to show that anti Tory parties could come together to oppose that was it, and it didn’t happen. I’m not saying it won’t happen in the future but the chance was there if ever it was.

If anything, they moved further apart. Some started new parties.

[Herman 9,760]

The trouble is you had Corbyn and his cronies and Swinson and her small cabal of advisers leading the main parties and they weren't listening to anyone with political brains. The remain camp had no single,decent head that could lead us forward so joining up as an anti-Blukip coalition couldn't happen.

[sonyc 5,517]

21 minutes ago, Van wink said:

That’s a fair comment, which I appreciate, but I would still say that in terms of the parliamentary debate there were sufficient numbers against the whole idea of Brexit to have at least coalesced around a second referendum on the deal. If British politics is capable of forming an anti government coalition this was the prime opportunity. Personal view but accept you won’t agree.

At the risk of opening up Brexit again, it was a ridiculous thing to ask the public to choose in or out. We didn't know all the nuances, the potential outcomes, even if we had good foresight (though we had a view based on our own prejudices etc). It concealed far too much and was even manipulated as such through dark arts (imo) with huge exaggeration on both sides (at times). Then we had the 'will of the people' narrative once cracks were appearing in the enormity of the result. It would have killed parties to go against that (which indeed it did for the Liberals, who staked their whole claim on it). 

Agree that a second referendum alignment would have helped (but Corbyn never pushed for this...a big failure) yet again that would have been against the 'peoples' will'. The country was fair enough split 50/50 in the matter. Unity? Not a chance... I don't believe anyway.

What conditions ahead might the centre and left coalesce is far more interesting. I watched the piece on SC4 on Labour's view on independence and the election next week. Very illuminating to hear so many good contributions (all parties). It showed me debate can happen.

At present we have a dearth of serious debate, just a hollow sounding government that is:

(a) always seemingly in campaign mode, not governing (b) an annoying characteristic of defensiveness against all kinds of challenge

(c) empty grandstanding rhetoric.

The country needs better😐