New Tory Leader

[sonyc 5,488]

News I had most feared. Matt Hancock will not be standing as a Conservative MP at the next election. Oh Matt, do you know what you're doing?

I will try and process this one, give me a bit of time.

 

 

 

[horsefly 4,275]

Hancock's Suffolk constituency have just posted the following vid to lament their loss:

 

[Herman 9,710]

It sounds like they kicked him out. 

That should read, were.

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Herman

[Herman 9,710]

Jeremy Hunt deregulating the banks and clearing red tape. What could possibly go wrong??

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

3 minutes ago, Herman said:

Jeremy Hunt deregulating the banks and clearing red tape. What could possibly go wrong??

You really couldn't make this sort of stuff up could you???  🙄

I thought a year or so ago I'd reached the point where nothing in UK politics would really surprise me any more but somehow the utter stupidity of Tory Ministers continues to prove me wrong.........the gift that keeps on giving, for the next 2 years only!!!

[TheGunnShow 5,925]

14 minutes ago, Herman said:

Jeremy Hunt deregulating the banks and clearing red tape. What could possibly go wrong??

I get a real sense of deja p-o-o about this. As in "where the hell have I seen this sh/it before?"

Edited December 9, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[Herman 9,710]

6 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

You really couldn't make this sort of stuff up could you???  🙄

I thought a year or so ago I'd reached the point where nothing in UK politics would really surprise me any more but somehow the utter stupidity of Tory Ministers continues to prove me wrong.........the gift that keeps on giving, for the next 2 years only!!!

2 more years but how much damage, long and short term, can these feckers do to this country??

[benchwarmer 624]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

Jeremy Hunt deregulating the banks and clearing red tape. What could possibly go wrong??

Back to the future.  Sunak says big banks will no longer have to keep casino banking separate from our current accounts and ISAs.  In 2008 the government bailed them out when the inevitable happened.  If/when it happens again, will they be rescued or allowed to fail?  In either case we're the ones who will pay for it.

Edited December 9, 2022 by benchwarmer

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

You really couldn't make this sort of stuff up could you???  🙄

I thought a year or so ago I'd reached the point where nothing in UK politics would really surprise me any more but somehow the utter stupidity of Tory Ministers continues to prove me wrong.........the gift that keeps on giving, for the next 2 years only!!!

Just lining the nest if it all goes wrong.

[Well b back 3,186]

More trouble at mill

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63924098

[horsefly 4,275]

Good interview with Ian Hislop reviewing the year in politics:

Here's a link to the brilliant Adam Curtis series of documentaries on Russia to which he refers: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0d3hwl1/russia-19851999-traumazone

[Well b back 3,186]

I am already beginning to believe that the Tories are planning for 7 years time, ie completely collapse everything now, so it will be impossible for Labour ( or whoever ) to govern and the Tories will then blame Labour ( or whoever ) for the total collapse in the economy.

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Well b back

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

1 hour ago, Well b back said:

I am already beginning to believe that the Tories are planning for 7 years time, ie completely collapse everything now, so it will be impossible for Labour ( or whoever ) to govern and the Tories will then blame Labour ( or whoever ) for the total collapse in the economy.

 

I don't believe that this set of Tories have the intelligence or competence to actually 'plan' anything but I dare say that they are hoping that another couple of years of the ongoing shambles they have inflicted on us will pan out as you suggest 🙄

However, I think they will be hoping in vain. It seems to me that the Tories have already dug themselves a very deep hole as far as a large majority of UK voters are concerned and they appear to be intending to carry on digging for the next two years.

I don't see that being forgiven for many years if at all - if Labour are sensible and bring in genuine electoral reform (which I fully accept is still a big if) then we are unlikely to ever see another Tory majority government.

[Well b back 3,186]

Beyond belief, the 100,00 idiots who voted for this shambles have just as much to answer for.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63927502

[benchwarmer 624]

3 hours ago, Well b back said:

Beyond belief, the 100,00 idiots who voted for this shambles have just as much to answer for.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63927502

The disconnect between the parliamentary party and the grassroots led them to rig Sunak's appointment in case the membership voted for Braverman.  Ironically,  Sunak and Hunt are starting to make Truss and Kwarteng look like a safe pair of hands.

Edited December 10, 2022 by benchwarmer

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Failed Tory leader IDS still thinks he is a gift to politics and leading a rebellion against his leader for taxing too much.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,507]

On 07/12/2022 at 14:47, sonyc said:

News I had most feared. Matt Hancock will not be standing as a Conservative MP at the next election. Oh Matt, do you know what you're doing?

I will try and process this one, give me a bit of time.

 

 

 

You say that, but actually the reaction to his dyslexia bill really shows the worst of party politics: no support from the Conservatives because they're freezing him out and no support from Labour because of 'not invented here' syndrome.

[horsefly 4,275]

I see Boris Johnson is taking another beach holiday:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/walrus-appears-on-hampshire-beach-more-than-2-000-miles-from-home-in-arctic-ocean/ar-AA15bhes?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=01e0b39b4ffe4ed9be873fc5f43f1624

[sonyc 5,488]

"Ten years of managed decline"

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/decade-of-neglect-means-nhs-unable-to-tackle-care-backlog-report-says?

When the Covid pandemic was beginning I posted that I feared for the effect on our already pressured NHS. An obvious point to make though support for the NHS isn't universal, even though one of the defining tenets of our public health service is it's very universality. The crumbling nature and inadequate support alone should translate into no-one voting for the Conservative party next time. And I realise there is a deeper demographic problem.

But like our energy, our information services, our water supplies, transport services etc ... some things need to be publicly owned and paid for by adequate taxation. Things that sit in the background for all to have a contented life. Yet, we've increasingly sold all our services for profits and shareholders. The stewardship of our health since 2010 is particularly damning. And I realise it was far from perfect before. But at least there was a plan, a trajectory. It wasn't all about austerity, austerity, austerity.

This isn't a post about how everyone should vote Labour...but look at some metrics from their last administration - in patient waiting lists were down half a million, 85000 extra nurses were recruited and fatalities from serious diseases were hugely reduced. Underneath the health of the nation sat social policies - Sure Start centres, the numbers of health visitors, 274,000 more teaching assistants, fruit for 4-6 year olds, free nursery places, pensioners and children lifted out of poverty, transport subsidies help etc etc. The list goes on. Just quite normal things that we don't see but benefit from, the things our friends and family members use.

Compare where we are today! It isn't all to do with Covid, it isn't all to do with Ukraine. It is to do with quite shocking political stewardship. The vast majority of people haven't been served well or even served at all. It's daft to pick up on a few things but many places don't even have a library now. Public services in many neighbourhoods are stripped to the bone. Perhaps where posters live they have noticed  effects like me? We don't even have people anymore to empty the public waste bins (maybe every month...used to be done weekly) but where do you spend your money as a local authority? On children's homes, on urgent social services and care? Or on bins and libraries? Well, you know the answer.

The country - it's time to wake up. Imagine in a decade time looking back and analysing this Tory administration in figures. With life expectancy actually falling under their watch. That health inequalities have actually risen. In an age of unprecedented technological advance, these things are an incredible and shameful indictment.

Apologies for a longish post. It's because I've had weeks and months just thinking about all the news and it sinking in.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by sonyc
Edit: Apologies for length

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

4 hours ago, sonyc said:

"Ten years of managed decline"

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/decade-of-neglect-means-nhs-unable-to-tackle-care-backlog-report-says?

When the Covid pandemic was beginning I posted that I feared for the effect on our already pressured NHS. An obvious point to make though support for the NHS isn't universal, even though one of the defining tenets of our public health service is it's very universality. The crumbling nature and inadequate support alone should translate into no-one voting for the Conservative party next time. And I realise there is a deeper demographic problem.

But like our energy, our information services, our water supplies, transport services etc ... some things need to be publicly owned and paid for by adequate taxation. Things that sit in the background for all to have a contented life. Yet, we've increasingly sold all our services for profits and shareholders. The stewardship of our health since 2010 is particularly damning. And I realise it was far from perfect before. But at least there was a plan, a trajectory. It wasn't all about austerity, austerity, austerity.

This isn't a post about how everyone should vote Labour...but look at some metrics from their last administration - in patient waiting lists were down half a million, 85000 extra nurses were recruited and fatalities from serious diseases were hugely reduced. Underneath the health of the nation sat social policies - Sure Start centres, the numbers of health visitors, 274,000 more teaching assistants, fruit for 4-6 year olds, free nursery places, pensioners and children lifted out of poverty, transport subsidies help etc etc. The list goes on. Just quite normal things that we don't see but benefit from, the things our friends and family members use.

Compare where we are today! It isn't all to do with Covid, it isn't all to do with Ukraine. It is to do with quite shocking political stewardship. The vast majority of people haven't been served well or even served at all. It's daft to pick up on a few things but many places don't even have a library now. Public services in many neighbourhoods are stripped to the bone. Perhaps where posters live they have noticed  effects like me? We don't even have people anymore to empty the public waste bins (maybe every month...used to be done weekly) but where do you spend your money as a local authority? On children's homes, on urgent social services and care? Or on bins and libraries? Well, you know the answer.

The country - it's time to wake up. Imagine in a decade time looking back and analysing this Tory administration in figures. With life expectancy actually falling under their watch. That health inequalities have actually risen. In an age of unprecedented technological advance, these things are an incredible and shameful indictment.

Apologies for a longish post. It's because I've had weeks and months just thinking about all the news and it sinking in.

 

Absolutely, sonyc. Another factor is that the Tory party has sold the myth that UK is a high-tax country. The latest budget (I think this was the one Hunt produced but one gets confused...) was slagged off by many Tory MPs for actually increasing the tax burden. He was accused of the crime of being Gordon Brown in disguise.

But by all accounts the UK tax burden is very low compared to similar countries. I don't doubt there are any number of different statistics, but the chart I have just come across is for average workers in OECD countries.

The UK tax burden for such is the 27th highest. The UK is comfortably below the OECD average and almost all the EU countries are above it. 

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

35 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

The UK tax burden for such is the 27th highest. The UK is comfortably below the OECD average and almost all the EU countries are above it. 

Spot on, and no doubt not unrelated to the fact that most EU countries have significantly better public services than those in the UK most of which are nearly at, if not already past, breaking point.

[horsefly 4,275]

Probably the most important economist in modern history, John Maynard Keynes, was said to be frequently disillusioned by economics as a discipline because all to often it discussed the "science" of money separately from the fundamental social purpose of money (see Robert Skidelsky's excellent biography). He believed economic strategy must be fundamentally informed by social purpose rather than be seen as some abstract science concerned with maximising money supply for its own sake. Low-tax right-wing dogma ignores this fundamental link, indeed, seeks to repress it.

It should come as no surprise that many of the countries that rank above the UK on the "Happiness index" https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-countries-in-the-world are also countries with a higher tax burden on the individuals living there. It seems that high tax regimes are positively embraced by individuals when the revenue raised is put to palpable socially valuable use. It is a sad indictment of the paucity of debate about the economy in the UK that it has for so long been dominated by an intellectually flawed assumption that a free market low-tax economy is the starting point for economic strategy.

[Yellow Fever 3,736]

20 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Absolutely, sonyc. Another factor is that the Tory party has sold the myth that UK is a high-tax country. The latest budget (I think this was the one Hunt produced but one gets confused...) was slagged off by many Tory MPs for actually increasing the tax burden. He was accused of the crime of being Gordon Brown in disguise.

But by all accounts the UK tax burden is very low compared to similar countries. I don't doubt there are any number of different statistics, but the chart I have just come across is for average workers in OECD countries.

The UK tax burden for such is the 27th highest. The UK is comfortably below the OECD average and almost all the EU countries are above it. 

 

19 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Spot on, and no doubt not unrelated to the fact that most EU countries have significantly better public services than those in the UK most of which are nearly at, if not already past, breaking point.

I have my own 'take' on this.

For decades we have had a society which believes in the welfare state but isn't actually prepared to fund it properly. My generation - let's call ourselves the boomers or Thatcher's children promised itself the 'free' NHS, pensions, social care, university education  - the list goes on (right down to bus passes) but all too often I hear the refrain - We've paid our stamp - we're 'entitled'. We didn't pay/invest enough for the obvious problems ahead with an ageing population.

The problem the country now faces is that we have a generally elderly and often cossetted demographic (asset rich) being supported by an overtaxed, underpaid, asset poor younger generation(s) with little hope or belief in the same benefit largesse or property investment opportunity. Something has to give - and frankly that's really what we are seeing now. We need to be honest and change the tax base.

Personally - I thought the big government mistake in trying to hold down pay rises was in giving the pensioners 10% (inflation) - without at the same time at least removing or phasing out the NI age limit. The otherwise untrammelled 10% simply set a bench mark. Pensioners taken as a group are actually not the hardest up section of our society so don't treat them as such.

We simply aren't all in this together.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[sonyc 5,488]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Probably the most important economist in modern history, John Maynard Keynes, was said to be frequently disillusioned by economics as a discipline because all to often it discussed the "science" of money separately from the fundamental social purpose of money (see Robert Skidelsky's excellent biography). He believed economic strategy must be fundamentally informed by social purpose rather than be seen as some abstract science concerned with maximising money supply for its own sake. Low-tax right-wing dogma ignores this fundamental link, indeed, seeks to repress it.

It should come as no surprise that many of the countries that rank above the UK on the "Happiness index" https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-countries-in-the-world are also countries with a higher tax burden on the individuals living there. It seems that high tax regimes are positively embraced by individuals when the revenue raised is put to palpable socially valuable use. It is a sad indictment of the paucity of debate about the economy in the UK that it has for so long been dominated by an intellectually flawed assumption that a free market low-tax economy is the starting point for economic strategy.

A very good point there H about the level of debate and the dominant narrative (seems like years) has been about free market forces coupled with low taxes (encapsulating the ideas of individual freedom - also tapping into the idea of ambition and enterprise with a bit of spin).

It's time there was a renaissance for Keynes.

I may have posted before but my old lecturer used to say that one way of boosting growth - for the really long term - is to build something really important in each large town or city, on the scale of a cathedral. You use tons of labour creating the foundations and it takes decades to build. Benefits too for transport, the local economy etc. In the meantime you attract investors, government support and excitement about it. Employment is boosted. I suppose when cathedrals or railway stations or massive hotels were built in the past (with an accent on the building being beautiful in its design - that is a MUST) there was a lot of local pride. Once built, my lecturer argued, people would visit in their numbers for many years. 

I guess that was his idealistic vision (god rest his soul) for a better world. Building beautiful things - of use - involving thousands of people - over decades. 

It would just require some vision about what would be built. But I see his vision now ever clearer. As de-industrialisation has occured, especially in the north, places don't have a purpose anymore. Lancashire towns no longer are the cotton kings. Bradford no longer a woollen capital.  But, you can see the thrust of such an endeavour - essentially you'd be giving an area, a locality a purpose once again. A reason for it's being. Maybe Cambridge is the place for study but also it's a technological area of excellence. You might have another in say, Burnley. Why not? You get the idea anyway.

Anyway, you've just jogged a memory of my old teacher and his love of Keynes.

If you pay / invest for something important and lovely then there is value in doing so and you reap the reward...that seems a better economic blueprint for society. It's the same with our relationships, you give your love as fully and dedicatedly as possible and life is more fulfilled. In other words, you often get what you give! That's the kind of thing we need to hear from our politicians.

Edited December 14, 2022 by sonyc

[TheGunnShow 5,925]

21 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Absolutely, sonyc. Another factor is that the Tory party has sold the myth that UK is a high-tax country. The latest budget (I think this was the one Hunt produced but one gets confused...) was slagged off by many Tory MPs for actually increasing the tax burden. He was accused of the crime of being Gordon Brown in disguise.

But by all accounts the UK tax burden is very low compared to similar countries. I don't doubt there are any number of different statistics, but the chart I have just come across is for average workers in OECD countries.

The UK tax burden for such is the 27th highest. The UK is comfortably below the OECD average and almost all the EU countries are above it. 

Exactly this. I almost moved to Germany straight after Brexit, but their tax laws are far more stringent/rates are far higher. Not to mention as a self-employed guy I'd have to charge VAT right away.

[Yellow Fever 3,736]

33 minutes ago, sonyc said:

A very good point there H about the level of debate and the dominant narrative (seems like years) has been about free market forces coupled with low taxes (encapsulating the ideas of individual freedom - also tapping into the idea of ambition and enterprise with a bit of spin).

It's time there was a renaissance for Keynes.

I may have posted before but my old lecturer used to say that one way of boosting growth - for the really long term - is to build something really important in each large town or city, on the scale of a cathedral. You use tons of labour creating the foundations and it takes decades to build. Benefits too for transport, the local economy etc. In the meantime you attract investors, government support and excitement about it. Employment is boosted. I suppose when cathedrals or railway stations or massive hotels were built in the past (with an accent on the building being beautiful in its design - that is a MUST) there was a lot of local pride. Once built, my lecturer argued, people would visit in their numbers for many years. 

I guess that was his idealistic vision (god rest his soul) for a better world. Building beautiful things - of use - involving thousands of people - over decades. 

It would just require some vision about what would be built. But I see his vision now ever clearer. As de-industrialisation has occured, especially in the north, places don't have a purpose anymore. Lancashire towns no longer are the cotton kings. Bradford no longer a woollen capital.  But, you can see the thrust of such an endeavour - essentially you'd be giving an area, a locality a purpose once again. A reason for it's being. Maybe Cambridge is the place for study but also it's a technological area of excellence. You might have another in say, Burnley. Why not? You get the idea anyway.

Anyway, you've just jogged a memory of my old teacher and his love of Keynes.

If you pay / invest for something important and lovely then there is value in doing so and you reap the reward...that seems a better economic blueprint for society. It's the same with our relationships, you give your love as fully and dedicatedly as possible and life is more fulfilled. In other words, you often get what you give! That's the kind of thing we need to hear from our politicians.

I think the point is to 'build' something - it creates a net gain in absolute value however measured.

Contrast that to the last three decades or more in the UK where the only thing we seem to want to do is run financial services - which although they may make profits in themselves for themselves create no new 'value' (net sum zero) unless somebody prints (inflationary) money which then rather defeats the objective! They should be the 'services' or enablers to help in the building of things more tangible - rather like in Germany 😉

 

[horsefly 4,275]

56 minutes ago, sonyc said:

A very good point there H about the level of debate and the dominant narrative (seems like years) has been about free market forces coupled with low taxes (encapsulating the ideas of individual freedom - also tapping into the idea of ambition and enterprise with a bit of spin).

It's time there was a renaissance for Keynes.

I may have posted before but my old lecturer used to say that one way of boosting growth - for the really long term - is to build something really important in each large town or city, on the scale of a cathedral. You use tons of labour creating the foundations and it takes decades to build. Benefits too for transport, the local economy etc. In the meantime you attract investors, government support and excitement about it. Employment is boosted. I suppose when cathedrals or railway stations or massive hotels were built in the past (with an accent on the building being beautiful in its design - that is a MUST) there was a lot of local pride. Once built, my lecturer argued, people would visit in their numbers for many years. 

I guess that was his idealistic vision (god rest his soul) for a better world. Building beautiful things - of use - involving thousands of people - over decades. 

It would just require some vision about what would be built. But I see his vision now ever clearer. As de-industrialisation has occured, especially in the north, places don't have a purpose anymore. Lancashire towns no longer are the cotton kings. Bradford no longer a woollen capital.  But, you can see the thrust of such an endeavour - essentially you'd be giving an area, a locality a purpose once again. A reason for it's being. Maybe Cambridge is the place for study but also it's a technological area of excellence. You might have another in say, Burnley. Why not? You get the idea anyway.

Anyway, you've just jogged a memory of my old teacher and his love of Keynes.

If you pay / invest for something important and lovely then there is value in doing so and you reap the reward...that seems a better economic blueprint for society. It's the same with our relationships, you give your love as fully and dedicatedly as possible and life is more fulfilled. In other words, you often get what you give! That's the kind of thing we need to hear from our politicians.

Spot on Sonyc! It's not as if this Keynesian economic strategy hasn't been proven time and again to be the way to wrest an economy out of dire failure (you need little more than a passing acquaintance with 20th century history). Yet so pervasive has the free market low-taxation dogma been in UK politics that we actually had a Tory government that further trashed an already broken economy with a plan to borrow billions, not to invest in infrastructure and public projects, but to pay for unfunded tax cuts for the wealthy. Truly unbelievable!

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

During the Great Depression, many nations put all their efforts into capital projects. Building roads, dams, planting forests etc. A two fold reason. One to boost the economy by providing work but secondly providing a foundation and structure for the future.

These ideas are not wrong just because they are old.

[Yellow Fever 3,736]

Just saw this in passing.

Labour on track for 314-seat majority at next general election, new poll finds

The Conservative Party would likely be wiped out in much of the north of England, the model suggests

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/13/labour-track-majority-next-general-election-new-poll-finds/

20 point lead still

[Well b back 3,186]

So Hancock is suspended for spending 3 weeks away earning money, ( quite rightly ) whilst Johnson on top of his 2 holidays is doing this. Personally I don’t see the difference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63975286