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2 hours ago, sonyc said:

Some people know of folk working in higher circles in government. Like the stories emerging during lockdown, bad behaviour and scandal does leak out, e.g. by their colleagues to give one example.

There's further claims now of bullying (reported last night). I guess we need to let the investigation take its course.

There is the saying "no smoke without fire" and it all feels to me strange as people don't make up stories about work lightly do they? Many actually transferred too when they heard the news of his return to the department.

I know a solicitor who lost his entire practice because "no smoke without fire" was deemed more important than "innocent until proven guilty".  He was proved innocent beyond doubt, but two years too late.

My worry is that anything and everything can be called bullying nowadays, and the current flurry started when Dominic Raab threw three tomatoes into a bin or into a bag, depending which version you read.  Is that really bullying?  

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9 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

I know a solicitor who lost his entire practice because "no smoke without fire" was deemed more important than "innocent until proven guilty".  He was proved innocent beyond doubt, but two years too late.

My worry is that anything and everything can be called bullying nowadays, and the current flurry started when Dominic Raab threw three tomatoes into a bin or into a bag, depending which version you read.  Is that really bullying?  

You are absolutely right to say the "no smoke without fire" trope should never be mistaken or used as proof of guilt. At best it raises suspicions that must be thoroughly investigated to see if there are genuine complaints that should be addressed. 

I'm not convinced, however, that you need be so worried that "anything and everything" can be called bullying nowadays. Bullying as a concept is by its nature one of those many concepts for which there can be no precise general definition. It is impossible to describe its instances separately from the intention of the individual actor. But we do tend to know quite clearly in specific cases what constitutes bullying and what doesn't. Thus, we know that Gavin Williamson's persistent verbal abuse of a civil servant, culminating in him shouting at him to "jump out of a window" and to "slit your own throat", certainly was bullying. 

There is certainly plenty of smoke in the case of Dominic Raab but will rightly have to wait and see whether a thorough investigation locates any fire.

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18 minutes ago, horsefly said:

You are absolutely right to say the "no smoke without fire" trope should never be mistaken or used as proof of guilt. At best it raises suspicions that must be thoroughly investigated to see if there are genuine complaints that should be addressed. 

I'm not convinced, however, that you need be so worried that "anything and everything" can be called bullying nowadays. Bullying as a concept is by its nature one of those many concepts for which there can be no precise general definition. It is impossible to describe its instances separately from the intention of the individual actor. But we do tend to know quite clearly in specific cases what constitutes bullying and what doesn't. Thus, we know that Gavin Williamson's persistent verbal abuse of a civil servant, culminating in him shouting at him to "jump out of a window" and to "slit your own throat", certainly was bullying. 

There is certainly plenty of smoke in the case of Dominic Raab but will rightly have to wait and see whether a thorough investigation locates any fire.

Yep and when the bullies are left to be judged by their mates then suspicions grow. What is the point of an enquiry if the ultimate decision is with your best mate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63728990

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14 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Doesn't surprise me. After all, she's one of those who thinks there's a culture 'war' to be had when in reality it's a case of the likes of her talking provocative crap and plenty of others showing where she's misguided.

She is right re. slow processing though. That's an area that's needed looking at for a long time.

Edited by TheGunnShow
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She's going to be neck-and-neck with Nadine Dorries for "most embarrassing and incompetent select committee performance of the year"

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On 22/11/2022 at 17:54, dsr-burnley said:

Maybe they deserved to be bullied.  If someone is on a vast salary and doing very little work and doing it badly (and my experience with various tax offices make it certain that some of the people at the top fit that category) then they need a rocket up their backside now and then.

He must have been taking on some pretty s*** employees, and if his decision making was that bad when taking on new staff then that does not bode well for his position in government. The next to accuse him are his private secretaries who he would have had a say in putting in position.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63739105

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1 hour ago, Well b back said:

He must have been taking on some pretty s*** employees, and if his decision making was that bad when taking on new staff then that does not bode well for his position in government. The next to accuse him are his private secretaries who he would have had a say in putting in position.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63739105

Still lots of sexual allegations to go through, they've possibly got rid of their leakers and now it's the alleged bullies to tackle.

Patel stayed, Williamson had to leave so it's interesting to see what will happen to Raab.

That article speaks of senior former Private Secretaries as well as the union commentary. Quite a groundswell of complaint here. 

All in all it's been a shambles of a government for the last few years. With one of the former cabinet ministers currently in a jungle.

Government is not what it used to be is it? The average Pinkun poster would make a better candidate than some. 

 

Ps. Edit. Forgot to mention those PPE fast track channels. 

Will these last few years be remembered bitterly in years to come as the time of greatest sleaze in this country?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/23/the-yacht-the-wedding-and-29m-michelle-mones-life-during-the-covid-crisis?

Edited by sonyc

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2 hours ago, sonyc said:

Still lots of sexual allegations to go through, they've possibly got rid of their leakers and now it's the alleged bullies to tackle.

Patel stayed, Williamson had to leave so it's interesting to see what will happen to Raab.

That article speaks of senior former Private Secretaries as well as the union commentary. Quite a groundswell of complaint here. 

All in all it's been a shambles of a government for the last few years. With one of the former cabinet ministers currently in a jungle.

Government is not what it used to be is it? The average Pinkun poster would make a better candidate than some. 

 

Ps. Edit. Forgot to mention those PPE fast track channels. 

Will these last few years be remembered bitterly in years to come as the time of greatest sleaze in this country?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/23/the-yacht-the-wedding-and-29m-michelle-mones-life-during-the-covid-crisis?

No one remotely rational will be surprised by this dreadful collapse in government standards. It was inevitable from the very moment the Tory Party membership voted to make leader and PM someone they knew to be a compulsive liar with a history of racist, homophobic, and corrupt behaviour. They were even warned by respected Tory traditionalists like Oborne and Hastings (who had both made the mistake to employ him) that the man was not remotely fit to be an MP let alone leader and PM. However, the membership seemed to take particular delight in inflicting this degenerate into a position of ultimate power over the life of the nation. If one were to be kind one might say they were fooled into thinking his trademark buffoonery was merely as sign that he was some kind of harmless "Del Boy", lovably dodgy but ultimately well motivated. But we shouldn't be kind; his buffoonery was conclusively exposed early on as a pathetic attempt to disguise a malevolent ego. Remember that appearance on Have I Got News For You, when he was replayed the telephone call between himself and his pal Darius Guppy conspiring to have a journalist violently assaulted? I could, of course, recount very many other examples that preceded his elevation to the highest office in the land. 

So, we should not be surprised at all that many of his cabinet appointees are now being outed as abusers of power. After all, they sat with him at the cabinet table when he told them that the government's response to his mate Owen Paterson being found guilty of multiple breaches of the rules on lobbying should not be condemnation of Paterson but a concerted effort to overthrow the rules of parliament and get Paterson off the hook. They also watched on as he allowed Tory chums to fleece the country of multiple billions during a national crisis (as the Mone story and countless others have revealed). How sad and shocking that none of this is considered surprising anymore.

Hopefully the Tories will be suitably punished at the next election, they will certainly deserve nothing more than being wiped out for the depths of ethical degeneracy they have made commonplace in the conduct of political life in this dispirited country.

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Nurses announce first 2 day strikes for pay and to improve working conditions. I hope you can read beyond the government’s headline of how lives are being put at risk. Those two days I am sure will be allocated ‘ days off ‘ and will only be noticeable as a high % of nurses currently have to work 24/7 ( lots of them 12 hour shifts ) due to under staffing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63746334

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On 22/11/2022 at 17:54, dsr-burnley said:

Maybe they deserved to be bullied.  If someone is on a vast salary and doing very little work and doing it badly (and my experience with various tax offices make it certain that some of the people at the top fit that category) then they need a rocket up their backside now and then.

Beginning to look like you were defending the indefensible. Also the possibility that defending Raab by the PM could finally force the GE.

The Ministry of Justice has been "inundated" with complaints of alleged bullying by Justice Secretary Dominic Raab, BBC Newsnight has been told. 

Mr Raab - who is also the deputy prime minister - is already facing an investigation into two complaints made about his conduct.

However, the BBC has learnt some of his ex-colleagues want the inquiry to be widened to include new complaints.

Mr Raab is a close ally of Rishi Sunak and Downing Street has said he has the PM's full confidence.

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1 hour ago, Well b back said:

Beginning to look like you were defending the indefensible. Also the possibility that defending Raab by the PM could finally force the GE.

The Ministry of Justice has been "inundated" with complaints of alleged bullying by Justice Secretary Dominic Raab, BBC Newsnight has been told. 

Mr Raab - who is also the deputy prime minister - is already facing an investigation into two complaints made about his conduct.

However, the BBC has learnt some of his ex-colleagues want the inquiry to be widened to include new complaints.

Mr Raab is a close ally of Rishi Sunak and Downing Street has said he has the PM's full confidence.

The right wing of the Tories are still after Sunak for ruining their plans. 

He must not back down to them or he will be a eunuch.

But of course that might bring a GE even nearer.

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On 22/11/2022 at 20:31, Herman said:

William Wragg now too. 👍

I'll just keep adding and bumping this list.

Dahenna Davison.

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The numbers of Tories already declaring they won't run again is remarkably high this far from the next election. Clearly some of them simply can't face the personal humiliation that awaits in a couple of years' time. However, I get the feeling it is more significant than just that. Johnson's elevation to leader introduced a toxicity into the party similar to that which Trump introduced to the GOP. One-Nation Tories motivated by a sense of public service were driven out of the party by the self-serving spivs and chancers of the ERG, while Johnson's own blatantly corrupt behaviour licenced a degenerate disregard for the ethical standards and protocols once considered central to conservative principles and conduct.

It seems to me that the vulgar UKIPification of the Tory Party has left a significant number of their MPs unable to identify with anything they consider as genuine conservative values that would be worth fighting for.   The utter fiasco of the last few months speaks of a dispirited party without the slightest idea of what it is it stands for or what it hopes to achieve other than pure self-preservation. No surprise then that so many MPs have declared they will not stand again, and many more are rumoured to be contemplating the same decision.

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3 hours ago, Herman said:

How did we miss the legend that is Gary Streeter??😉

I think the reason why the younger ones are quitting is that they've decided the Tories will be out of power for 8-10 years, and personally that it will be at least a decade before they have a chance of being a minister, with a nice red box etc. The electorate will understand that Labour in their first four or five years will have to cope with an unprecedentedly unholy mess created by the Tories and so give them another win.

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1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

I think the reason why the younger ones are quitting is that they've decided the Tories will be out of power for 8-10 years, and personally that it will be at least a decade before they have a chance of being a minister, with a nice red box etc. The electorate will understand that Labour in their first four or five years will have to cope with an unprecedentedly unholy mess created by the Tories and so give them another win.

Not a massive scientific poll, simply judging the vibes from a few people I know, but even the tory voters at work feel that enough is enough. A small shift hopefully echoed around the country.

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Considering the ever-increasing gap between the haves and have-nots, this notion that the Tories are essentially too centrist is a pretty self-evident lie.

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5 hours ago, Herman said:

Not a massive scientific poll, simply judging the vibes from a few people I know, but even the tory voters at work feel that enough is enough. A small shift hopefully echoed around the country.

I think the most scientific poll I am seeing at the moment ( and things can change ) is QT with the audiences roundly laughing at the Tory or Tory supporters on the panel and Peston where even the Tory representative is not defending the Tory that comes on and gets a right grilling.

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21 hours ago, Well b back said:

I think the most scientific poll I am seeing at the moment ( and things can change ) is QT with the audiences roundly laughing at the Tory or Tory supporters on the panel and Peston where even the Tory representative is not defending the Tory that comes on and gets a right grilling.

How things have changed in 3 years. Even then posters on here were laughing at Labour under Corbyn. Abbott got stick just for breathing and Butler was a hate figure.

Now you hear nothing from those posters. They knowthere is nothing they can say. Not one iota of redemption.

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2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

How things have changed in 3 years. Even then posters on here were laughing at Labour under Corbyn. Abbott got stick just for breathing and Butler was a hate figure.

Now you hear nothing from those posters. They knowthere is nothing they can say. Not one iota of redemption.

1 or 2 of them keep trolling every now and then, with stuff that people no longer believe or take in.

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The parties at it everywhere

Five people have appeared at Northampton Crown Court charged in connection with donations to the Conservative Party.

Two pleaded guilty and three will go on trial next year.

The five have been accused of not disclosing the true source of donations to Northampton South Conservative Association in 2014.

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Business Secretary Grant Shapps has denied there is a split in the Tory Party over onshore wind farms.

Its nothing to do with wind farms is it. Its the Tory Party rejects seeking revenge.

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18 hours ago, Well b back said:

The parties at it everywhere

Five people have appeared at Northampton Crown Court charged in connection with donations to the Conservative Party.

Two pleaded guilty and three will go on trial next year.

The five have been accused of not disclosing the true source of donations to Northampton South Conservative Association in 2014.

To be fair, that offence was at approximately the same time period as 6 separate Labour MPs got jail sentences (actual or suspended) for fiddling expenses.  It's not just a narrative of "Tories corrupt, Labour clean".

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8 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

To be fair, that offence was at approximately the same time period as 6 separate Labour MPs got jail sentences (actual or suspended) for fiddling expenses.  It's not just a narrative of "Tories corrupt, Labour clean".

That makes an assumption I support Labour, I don’t I have always been a Tory voter, however I should stress I will do anything possible to bring my Tory MP down in the next GE. I will support whoever will challenge my MP and hopefully remove her from Westminster. 
I can find no Labour donors going to prison in that period, however I can see lots of problems around MPs expenses, and at the time supported the jailing of anyone involved.

Recently we had hundreds of offences committed by people connected to the Tories and the Tory supporters reckoned the one against Kier Starmer which he was cleared of, was worse than all those 100’s put together, so excuse my scepticism that there is a bit of Trumpism going on here.

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